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June release 118.6 - General feedback

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Author
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#261 - 2016-06-29 18:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
I'd like to take a moment to echo the sentiment that the new docking/ship change/undocking cameras need to go. It's sickening to look at, and very distracting when you want to focus on something else.

About the options complexity thing, I think CCP is going about it the wrong way. You shouldn't need to change many options, but they should be there if you want to. Eve has a broad audience and many of use don't mind complexity but get very annoyed when things don't work how we want. Simply adding the ability to turn off animations people may not like caters to both those who like it and those who don't. Please don't keep alienating parts of the player base by making controversial "features" mandatory when they have no effect on gameplay and many people don't like them.

There are many of us who greatly miss the ability to have a static station background because for performance or visual reasons we don't like to render the station interior. Then on top of getting rid of that option, you add screens with advertising many of us don't want to see that can be very distracting when not focused on it, so now every time we dock we need to turn the camera so we can't see the screens. Now every time we switch ships, we have to watch a repetitive and stuttering scene of the ship flying into position at a painfully slow pace, then move the camera again so we don't see the screens. It also made performance in station even worse.

With the constant changes making it less and less desirable to sit in a station or citadel, I often find myself logging off characters rather than staying docked and ready if something happens. The line between logging off and not logging back in is very thin, and I generally find myself playing less than half as much as before these changes started.

If we can't have the option to turn off these new "features," please at least add a simple thing like the Ship Tree or old map that's just a solid black background. Make it not minimize the Station Services window, and add an option to have it open only when docked, kind of like the Inventory window does. There, quick and easy solution that would help a lot of players that don't want to see all these "improvements" to the hangar environment.


Also on another note, I think the fighter nerfs were far too harsh combined with the NSA nerf and finally being limited by their own lock range. Time will tell, but so far it seems like carriers are generally worse than pre-Citadel when nobody used them except for their remote repair abilities.

There have been a lot of good changes recently, but the few bad ones are so bad they outweigh a lot of the good. Please reconsider the path you're taking for both station/citadel visuals, and ship balance.
Dominic Jacara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2016-06-29 18:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominic Jacara
Add yet another one to the plea for turning docking animation off. It's not as if you see your ship go from space outside the station, through the bay and to its final destination. It's just the final bit of the journey and induces nausea from the camera tracking. Also, why when I log in and am already in station is the animation played? I'm already docked in station from when I logged off. I suppose we should be grateful that you don't have the ship spin round and move off a little way when we undock.

So this release seems to have introduced a completely unnecessary and hated animation, and removed the blue light transition when using a Jump Bridge. Now when you select to jump through to the end system there's a delay when you wonder whether it took the command and you are tempted to click it again, when suddenly your ship just appears at the destination. Same orientation in space - just the background changes and the UI shows the new system name. I hope something in the new release just temporarily broke the jump bridge effect and it will return.

Otherwise I have to conclude that comments made in the past are correct. That CCP does precisely what it likes, doesn't care about user feedback, and yet professes to care deeply about the player experience. Sort of like politicians really.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#263 - 2016-06-29 18:21:51 UTC
Can you not face my camera at the station, that's like the least important thing on grid when I undock. I know it's there.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#264 - 2016-06-29 18:25:25 UTC
If you want me to articulate why I don't like this camera, can you articulate why I should?
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#265 - 2016-06-29 18:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Quote:
As if one more menu tab in the ESC menu would be the end of the world. If they actually researched it I'm betting a significant number of EVE customers would be happy with one or more additional ESC menus that would provide toggles for over a dozen or more "features" that the customers actually hate. The issue is the Dev's don't like us pushing back.

Quite the opposite: I feel that it's very valuable for the developers of new features, like the docking animation, to hear what you have to say, which is why I encouraged continuing to post.

When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.

Of course, taking it out, or even adding a switch, are always last-resort options, but they're just something we prefer not to do if we think we can find a better spot for the feature that more players will appreciate.

Importantly: Team TriLambda, Eve's art and graphics software team, (mostly) maintains the graphics settings menu but camera (including docking animation) and general UI development is handled by Team Psycho Sisters. That's why I didn't address specific feedback in my earlier comment.

Quote:
As if pages of statements by dozens of others doesn't detail the issues? Seriously???

Two people saying a thing have a louder voice than one. Just because someone else has said a thing doesn't mean someone else may not want to offer the same feedback a different way. I don't want to encourage anyone who feels strongly to keep their feedback to themselves.

Quote:
and removed the blue light transition when using a Jump Bridge.

This is not an intended change, and the jump animation will be restored as soon as possible.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Rain6637
NulzSec
#266 - 2016-06-29 18:29:25 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:


When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely

If it's bad and you don't want to clutter the options menu, it sounds like another reason why it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I am spamming this thread but I don't feel bad because I'm aggravated every time I have to suffer that undocking camera, so I think the repetition is rather fitting.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#267 - 2016-06-29 18:32:33 UTC
If you want a simple options menu, then you should keep a simple camera.
Kaivarian Coste
Whale Patrol
#268 - 2016-06-29 18:37:17 UTC
After playing for a few hours, my eyes feel like they are spinning, if that makes sense.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#269 - 2016-06-29 18:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CCP Darwin wrote:
Quote:
As if one more menu tab in the ESC menu would be the end of the world. If they actually researched it I'm betting a significant number of EVE customers would be happy with one or more additional ESC menus that would provide toggles for over a dozen or more "features" that the customers actually hate. The issue is the Dev's don't like us pushing back.

Quite the opposite: I feel that it's very valuable for the developers of new features, like the docking animation, to hear what you have to say, which is why I encouraged continuing to post.

When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.

Of course, taking it out, or even adding a switch, are always last-resort options, but they're just something we prefer not to do if we think we can find a better spot for the feature that more players will appreciate.

The thing is different people have different preferences. Some like to look at their pretty ships and station environments, while others just want to do unrelated things like buying and selling on the market, managing production, chatting with people, or just switching to a different character on another screen. Making things pretty is nice for the group that want to admire the ships and stations, but the performance costs and even the visual effects themselves can be very distracting and annoying to those who want to look at their windows rather than the hangar environment.

Adding a toggle allows those who will never like or want the feature to be satisfied as well as those who do like it. For example, I personally have nothing against the idea of animations when docking or switching ships, but no matter how pretty they look I'll never pay attention. On top of that, the movement, flashing screens, and effect on the performance of clients on other screens make the recent changes to station interiors very unwelcome. I don't need to spend 60% GPU power to render a hangar scene when the only thing on that screen I care about is a chat window, and that has a huge impact on the framerate of the window where I'm actually doing stuff in space and want things to be pretty and have good performance.

For those reasons I don't advocate removing the visual changes entirely. There are those who like it, but for those of us who don't, it's annoying and makes us want to play less. Like I mentioned a bit further up, a simple option to hide the station environment and docking animations, like a more streamlined version of what the Ship Tree and old map do, would allow some of us who don't like the changes to just ignore them in peace.
Tamazaki
Doomheim
#270 - 2016-06-29 18:43:39 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.


What else can I say other than "remove it or change it to stop making me dizzy"? All I know is the new docking animation makes me dizzy. I can't give you a detailed breakdown of why it does. All I know is my brain doesn't like the way the new camera moves.

I really do appreciate the effort you guys put in to try and make this game better. It's just sometimes things are better when they are kept simple.
Hiro Sayoshi
Strange Holdings
#271 - 2016-06-29 18:50:01 UTC
CCP Darwin when i unduck the new unduck i feel like iam less in controll that i was before it was put in, iam afarid PL is sitting on the unduck and the animation makes me feel that iam not in controll of the camera...
the ducking camera feels bad but that i could get use to, but when changing shipps the same animation happens that feels strange, mayube the should be a 3th for changing ship in the station.
Circumstantial Evidence
#272 - 2016-06-29 18:55:05 UTC
Dominic Jacara wrote:
Also, why when I log in and am already in station is the animation played? I'm already docked in station from when I logged off..
+1 to this. Makes sense that your active ship should already be centered when logging in.

On consistency: the new undocking tracking can easily be cancelled with a mouse click in space. So why can't the in-station docking animation be aborted with a mouse click in the scene? (Camera and active ship could "snap" to the center of the docking pad upon mouse click.)
Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
#273 - 2016-06-29 18:57:57 UTC
I'm not sure why "I preferred things the way they were" is insufficient. Why do the customers have to justify their preferences to CCP?

You put something in--by all accounts against the recommendations of people who tested it on SiSi--and now we're all screaming that we liked EVE better the way it was.

Now, I understand that you've got some sunk costs involved in putting this feature in, but making decisions moving forward on the basis of those sunk costs is the kind of fallacious reasoning that has extended the life of all sorts of awful decisions throughout human history.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#274 - 2016-06-29 18:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Dominic Jacara wrote:
Also, why when I log in and am already in station is the animation played? I'm already docked in station from when I logged off..
+1 to this. Makes sense that your active ship should already be centered when logging in.

On consistency: the new undocking tracking can easily be cancelled with a mouse click in space. So why can't the in-station docking animation be aborted with a mouse click in the scene? (Camera and active ship could "snap" to the center of the docking pad upon mouse click.)

please don't make the undocking camera seem acceptable at all. It's an extra repetitive click for something I don't want ever. I'm never going to undock and think, "Hmm I think I could go for that slow rotating camera at undock this time."

It also zooms out to 100km or 0 km depending on how it feels.
Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
Vastly Industries and Logistics
#275 - 2016-06-29 18:58:09 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
[quote]When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request.

Indeed.

CCP Darwin wrote:
[quote]Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.

Take it out or let us disable the docking animation, because it's just plain bad on pretty much every level. Makes people sick (because of the weird way player loses control over the camera), becomes repetitive (do you have any idea how many times we dock/undock every day?), slows things down, and makes undocking even more of a problem in danger zones (because of having to zoom out to gain situational awareness - which, btw, causes some really fast and weird camera movement).

I find it mind-boggling that it's even necessary to tell you (CCP) this here in this post-release thread. Should be immediately obvious to anyone actually playing the game. You apparently got the feedback early on SiSi, yet you ignored it.

As far as I am concerned, all the visual fluff needs to have an "on/off" switch somewhere deep in the settings menu. Because it's just that, visual fluff that doesn't provide any useful information. It may be oomph the first time you watch it, but inevitably becomes aargh once you've seen it more than a dozen times. Rule of thumb: Does the fluff affect something that happens rarely enough (like POS anchoring)? Go for the fluff, it's likely to be appreciated, as it adds to the sense of rarity of the moment players get to watch it in. Does the fluff affect something mundane that happens over and over, many times every day to every player (like gate jump, cloak/decloak, docking/undocking)? Avoid the fluff and go for the simplest, fastest, least resource-intensive graphical effect there is (simple fade-out/fade in works just fine for docking). Nobody will complain.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2016-06-29 19:04:09 UTC
Dear Team Psycho Sisters, here are a few suggestions that will (or might) prevent me from getting motion sickness during the current docking animation. I cannot explain why I get motion sickness, but I do, and it's an extremely... I don't know how to describe it, but it reminds me of the occasional migraine I get which is probably something you don't want a player associating with your game.


  1. Remove the feature altogether.
  2. Provide the option to toggle the feature off.
  3. Speculative - keep the camera still, while animating the ship moving into position. I'm 99% sure this will help.
  4. Speculative - fix the stutter that I see during the docking animation. I'm not sure how to describe it, and a screen shot of course is useless - it's kinda like the scene happens at less than 20 FPS. I don't see this during the undock animation. Other people do not appear to be experiencing this so I have no clue what the cause is. I've yet to have the FPS monitor running during docking - my card is a GTX 980 so has more than enough horsepower. I'm only 1% sure this will help, however.


If you want to do something visually interesting rather than the same old same old, go for item #3.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#277 - 2016-06-29 19:09:52 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Post-118.6, carriers can still apply damage quite well to small targets.


The meta you have nurtured is just so toxic. I am tired of the only viable ships being t3ds and kitey things in general. Brawling is dead, and the one thing that actually forced upshipping is now effectively gone. Requiring webs and TPs for an anti-supcap weapon to be effective against their intended targets is silly; you might as well make RLMLs useless without webs and TPs. I would love to agree with you, but you have so forced and overplayed the meta of small things with TII frigate logi and t3ds, that it takes quite an equally grotesque and unsubtle thing to make any progress against it.

I had more fun in the fluid meta of the past month than ever before. Suddenly, EvE became a complex and fun game of both on and offgrid maneuvers, escalations, big fights, and big losses. Now, why even bother logging in; most of the depth and breath of the ship diversity in the game never sees the light of day, I am subbed to EvE online, but all I see when I undock is t3d online. I had as much fun in carriers as I did playing against them - there was a GAME to be played, a game on many scales that was fun and moves on both sides actually mattered.

It's just really unfortunate that the ship balancing team is so opinionated and prejudiced. All they want to see flown and used is low-sec style nano-kitey things. Everyone else's playstyle has been thrown out the window for years. You should reward committing to a grid and holding the field - some people want fights, not just ganks and a green KB.


Terrible change. Awful change. Battleships look even worse now than they ever have.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#278 - 2016-06-29 19:34:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.

Of course, taking it out, or even adding a switch, are always last-resort options, but they're just something we prefer not to do if we think we can find a better spot for the feature that more players will appreciate.

When I ask for you to "add a switch" it's the same as when I ask someone to add a wheelchair ramp. It may be because I'm a really difficult customer, but it's also because I'm concerned that wheelchair users will not overcome your treacherous doorway and spend money in your establishment. I am being demanding, for sure, but that's because not being demanding hasn't worked out that well for those of us that weren't born typical.
Anna Maria Yolo
Neutron Blaster Solutions
#279 - 2016-06-29 19:35:44 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
[quote=Kremlath]
I commented to point out that requesting an additional option toggle is not as helpful as explaining why the feature bothers you, because the graphics software team (my team) is currently working on simplifying the graphics settings options.

A different team than mine is responsible for the docking animation, and despite that they haven't posted here, they are reading all of the feedback.


Ok, I'll try to be constructive. I will explain why your animatiom make people dizzy

1. The main problem is that that the pivot point is static and located in the middle of the screen. The object (ship) is all the time in the middle of the screen. You zoom out the camera, but the pivot point is static. You will get much better result when the pivot point moves with a ship from left border of the screen to the central point. This will be cinematic. The current effect is not cinematic but "whoaa, world rotates aroud me. combat drugs definitely have side effects"

2. More annoying is docking animation than undocking. The reason is simple - within the animation time (3 sec?) you pivot around 90 degrees in hangar and around 30 degrees outside a station. To make the animation less annoying just reduce pivot to 30 degrees in a station.

You may make a change in general. After docking the station and watching the animation, a pilot can automaticaly enter to captain's quarters. All other in-station operations like ship changing, fitting, reprocessing, trade, etc can be done from there. This way there will be no reason to watch the 3s animation while ship changing, and finally people will know what clothes they wear.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#280 - 2016-06-29 19:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Anna Maria Yolo wrote:
You may make a change in general. After docking the station and watching the animation, a pilot can automaticaly enter to captain's quarters. All other in-station operations like ship changing, fitting, reprocessing, trade, etc can be done from there. This way there will be no reason to watch the 3s animation while ship changing, and finally people will know what clothes they wear.

I think the idea is to pi​ss off less people, not more.