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June release 118.6 - General feedback

First post First post
Author
Cheradenine-Zakalwe Amtiskaw
The Kronos Ritual
#281 - 2016-06-29 19:55:18 UTC
And we're basically back to where we started in real terms.

http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=3954&b=7096434&e=121&t=bb

Our roaming gang got blobbed by Svipuls, everything died except for the Paladin. We dropped carriers and a fax. Took a couple minutes to kill the Sabre, couldn't kill the Svipuls or the logi frigs.

gg cap balance pass

See you on the next one Five-O. o/
Rain6637
NulzSec
#282 - 2016-06-29 20:02:49 UTC
I get the feeling fighters were made OP for a few weeks so people would forget to gripe about the increased micromanagement equal to that of a small frigate gang. It's just such a mystery you'd need a small gang to counter a small gang.
Cade Windstalker
#283 - 2016-06-29 20:14:39 UTC
Anna Maria Yolo wrote:
Ok, I'll try to be constructive. I will explain why your animatiom make people dizzy

1. The main problem is that that the pivot point is static and located in the middle of the screen. The object (ship) is all the time in the middle of the screen. You zoom out the camera, but the pivot point is static. You will get much better result when the pivot point moves with a ship from left border of the screen to the central point. This will be cinematic. The current effect is not cinematic but "whoaa, world rotates aroud me. combat drugs definitely have side effects"

2. More annoying is docking animation than undocking. The reason is simple - within the animation time (3 sec?) you pivot around 90 degrees in hangar and around 30 degrees outside a station. To make the animation less annoying just reduce pivot to 30 degrees in a station.


Seconding both of these with an addition.

The locking of the zoom level during the docking transition is really jarring and annoying, especially on larger ships or with different screen layouts. I have my screen stretched across two monitors and docking a larger Battleship is basically "Here's a close-up of this section of your hull!" and the only control I have over this is to rotate around so I can see the engines or the side or something, but not the whole ship and almost none of the station around it (it's there, it's just hidden under a wall of chat channels and other stuff on the second monitor...). I'll post screenshots or something later.

Some other issues:


  • There's still a black-screen when changing ships. The ship just disappears and the new one appears, which is honestly more jarring than the old quick and hard swap with a "whooom" noise we used to have.
  • The above leads into the bigger issue (I feel) which is the station interiors. The Gallente is alright, so is the Caldari, but the Amarr feels like my ship just kind of appeared in mid-air because there's no where for it to come from. I suspect you'd have another riot on your hands if you changed how big the Amarr stations feel, but I think you could still get a similar effect by having the ship come from further off or re-doing the inside of the Amarr station so the ship at least comes out of a docking channel instead of appearing out of nowhere in a space-cathedral sized room.
  • Just seconding the request for a slower rotation again. Both because I think it would help the people getting motion sick and because the half circle feels a bit fast to me.
  • Can you make the ships turn around when they get to the docking pad? Please? The "facing the wall" thing kind of irrationally bugs me and I think seeing the ship turn around would just look cool.
  • Start the zoom further out in general on the docking animation. Might just be because I have my screen stretched over two monitors, but the current version feels way too zoomed in.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#284 - 2016-06-29 20:29:02 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Quote:
As if one more menu tab in the ESC menu would be the end of the world. If they actually researched it I'm betting a significant number of EVE customers would be happy with one or more additional ESC menus that would provide toggles for over a dozen or more "features" that the customers actually hate. The issue is the Dev's don't like us pushing back.

Quite the opposite: I feel that it's very valuable for the developers of new features, like the docking animation, to hear what you have to say, which is why I encouraged continuing to post.

When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.

Of course, taking it out, or even adding a switch, are always last-resort options, but they're just something we prefer not to do if we think we can find a better spot for the feature that more players will appreciate.

Importantly: Team TriLambda, Eve's art and graphics software team, (mostly) maintains the graphics settings menu but camera (including docking animation) and general UI development is handled by Team Psycho Sisters. That's why I didn't address specific feedback in my earlier comment.

Quote:
As if pages of statements by dozens of others doesn't detail the issues? Seriously???

Two people saying a thing have a louder voice than one. Just because someone else has said a thing doesn't mean someone else may not want to offer the same feedback a different way. I don't want to encourage anyone who feels strongly to keep their feedback to themselves.



I think it's cute how you don't want to keep the attribution of who said what with the quotes.

I'm pretty sure the majority of us are asking for toggles, after pages of flat out stating it was making us ill which you have chosen to ignore or recognize as feedback, instead of asking for outright removal because 1) we do respect other customers who, somehow, actually like the animation feature and 2) since CCP has a track record of stubbornly refusing to admit they are wrong about something, the toggle is cover for what every toggle request is really saying - we don't hate you, but we definitely hate the feature in its entirety and want it removed completely. You're not going to fix this sows ear.

You, and other Dev's, keep saying which team is responsible for what has made it abundantly clear - CCP is now full of silos. ~"Not my job" ~"Not my fault" ~"Not my idea" ~"I can't do anything about it". Yep, CCP is definitely growing up. We (customers) don't really care who in particular develops something, we just know that CCP delivered it. (Yes, the FozziSov turtling made it clear that some of the Dev's really don't like all the attention either.) Feel assured we're not assuming you are the Dev who did "X", the focus of what we're angry/disappointed/bewildered by. You just happened to step in here to give us feedback on our feedback, which is great. Our further feedback is still not directed at you - it is still at the whole of the CCP Dev team, or if you like - management, since they are the ones ultimately responsible for what goes out the door. Management should be put on notice to perk up here - we're voting with our cash on this one.
Morgaine Mighthammer
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#285 - 2016-06-29 20:33:45 UTC
when patch went live i wasn't able to try out the "new features" like the dock and ship swap animations. now that school is over i have been able to try them for myself.

you ask for constructive feedback instead of just blanket "remove it" statements, fine here goes.


while i have yet to use it enough to get any feelings of vertigo or nausea, i can completely understand how people are getting that. part of this issue i think is the fact that the camera now cant zoom out as far as it used to be able to, and yet can zoom in WAY too far, and it feels like it doesn't change it's range of motion based on what ship hull you have selected. PLEASE change this asap, as i feel it is a major part of why folks are getting sick from the anim. in addition, the fact that we cant move our camera during it is also very frustrating. last thing is that you have randomly chosen to flip the direction that our ships face inside the hanger, and while not as big of an issue as the camera, still feels wrong and makes you wonder why; it's annoying, especially for ocd folks and the rest of us that are used to our ships facing a certain direction.

imo, the animation would be worlds better if the camera instead of being fixed to the ship, was fixed in the hanger and you watched your ship come rolling out. it would likely cause far fewer feelings of vertigo for users and as long as we still had control of our cameras would overall be much better received.

as well, others have stated that the undocking animation is pointless and frustrating due to the lack of camera control. when undocking, especially into a hostile situation, it is paramount to be able to survey the situation during your very brief moment of invuln, and the undock animation removes part of this ability. as much as i would like to say something to improve it, the only things that come to mind are restore camera control from the moment you spawn in space, or remove the "feature" entirely.

that's about as positive as i can be with these changes, and i still feel that you went WAY too far with the changes to carriers. we'll see if you guys listen...
Pumeia Taranogas
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#286 - 2016-06-29 20:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pumeia Taranogas
CCP Darwin wrote:
[quote]

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.


You don't get it, aye?
You guys are literally HURT your player base in a physical way causing nausea and motion sickness! This is nothing anyone would think about twice to keep it in or remove it, its fuckin common sense!

So after that no brainer....

Not going back to black screen or loading bar?! This Game is a game of quick reactions and decision and you wanna make it a fuckin "scenic route" spectacle....its so sad that in these days we came far enough that the devs in power not understand their own game.

Black Screen/Loading Bar > mauled by a grizzly > getting a deadly disease > useless spaceship animations that cause physical harm

Evil
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#287 - 2016-06-29 20:50:04 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Quote:
As if one more menu tab in the ESC menu would be the end of the world. If they actually researched it I'm betting a significant number of EVE customers would be happy with one or more additional ESC menus that would provide toggles for over a dozen or more "features" that the customers actually hate. The issue is the Dev's don't like us pushing back.

Quite the opposite: I feel that it's very valuable for the developers of new features, like the docking animation, to hear what you have to say, which is why I encouraged continuing to post.

When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.



Actually I view your response more on the lines of - lets obfuscate and delay and hope that with time they (meaning us the players) grow used to it. After all, that's exactly what happened with the warp tube. A giant threadnaught occurred following that change expressing how awful the warp tube was and CCP basically said the same thing that is being said now. Despite the feedback nothing was done. The warp tube remains and it is still pretty bad. The thing is - the people that really hated it have left, while those that have come to accept it - largely ignore it. I know that when I enter warp, I am not staring at my screen saying "ooo" this is great. Rather I turn my head and watch what is happening on my other character. So all in all, the warp tube didnt add anything - it didnt improve game play or immersion one bit. Rather it is just a piece of fluff that is at best tolerated by the remaining player base while simply being out right ignored.

What happened with the warp tube is now happening with the docking animation. There is a reason why gaming companies typically make it so you can skip cut screens. It is fundamentally terrible to have to see the same pointless animation over and over again. I've seen the docking and ship changing animation once so I have seen it enough. I dont need to see it over and over again, especially since it hurts game play, as it is slower and prevents players from responding adequately to combat situations around docking/undocking.

In time, people may come to accept the docking/ship changing animations. Just like the warp tubes maybe there will be a point in time where we can just ignore these new animations. But it is simply beyond my understanding why a company would want to produce a product that at best is just to be ignored.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Sergey Hawk
The Sith Syndicate
REFORD
#288 - 2016-06-29 20:56:20 UTC
Quote:
That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it

Let's go back a few months ago.

  • CCP made freaking flashing kill confirmation
  • This animation always distracts MY attention and I can not get used to it. For ME, this flashing extremely annoying. But not all have the same feeling as ME and someone may like it.
    ADD A SWITCH
  • Scope video and Hangar. For ME, it are annoying, but someone may like it.
  • ADD A SWITCH
  • New "awesome" camera does not have the same functionality, which was with the old camera and MY eyes get tired very quickly. I do not have nausea, but someone feels nauseous.
  • Please explain why you removed the old camera when a new still looks like a piece of ****?
  • Dock animation. Again for ME, it just annoying and waste of time. I just do not want to see it. But many people feel motion sickness and some pilots like it.
  • ADD A SWITCH


As a consumer I do not care which team is responsible for what. I care only for result. And the result is terrible.

PS. So team Team Psycho Sisters responsible for crap like flashing kill confirmation and new stupid camera. Now it is not surprising why such psycho feature appeared in the game. As your customer, I want CCP fired all members of Psycho Sisters team. They waste OUR money.

Aura: "You need to be within range to execute this function."

Kimi Räikkönen: “Leave me alone, I know what I’m doing.”

Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad
United Federation of Conifers
#289 - 2016-06-29 21:03:37 UTC
Tamazaki wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
When people ask for a toggle to turn a feature off, usually they are really saying they'd like the feature removed entirely but think that an option toggle is a more reasonable request. Our focus, though, is usually on trying to make something new like the docking animation a positive for more people.

That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it. Maybe it could be different in some way that wouldn't make you feel that way but doesn't take us back to a black screen or a loading bar for these session changes, and it helps if you offer us thoughts that can help us get there.


What else can I say other than "remove it or change it to stop making me dizzy"? All I know is the new docking animation makes me dizzy. I can't give you a detailed breakdown of why it does. All I know is my brain doesn't like the way the new camera moves.

I really do appreciate the effort you guys put in to try and make this game better. It's just sometimes things are better when they are kept simple.


^^^ THIS! I heard multiple people say on comms last night that they were getting dizzy or nauseous every time they docked or changed ships. It'd be one thing if it only happened when docking but given that it's constant, it's quite detrimental to the play experience.

Additionally, when logging in 5-8 clients simultaneously, this is incredibly choppy and lag inducing, no feature should ever cause that when everything was working fine previously but that's an on-going issue. Since the citadel patch release, EVE resource usage has increased substantially, the game lags in many places where it never had before.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
#290 - 2016-06-29 21:04:08 UTC
Sergey Hawk wrote:
Quote:
That's why I asked for posters who might say "Add a switch!" or "Take it out!" to instead explain what they don't like about it

Let's go back a few months ago.

  • CCP made freaking flashing kill confirmation
  • This animation always distracts MY attention and I can not get used to it. For ME, this flashing extremely annoying. But not all have the same feeling as ME and someone may like it.
    ADD A SWITCH

Let's not forget that when they added the flashing effect they also added a sound to it, which got a similar response to the docking animations. Rather than add a switch they removed the sound two days later.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
#291 - 2016-06-29 21:13:01 UTC
Darius Caliente wrote:
Additionally, when logging in 5-8 clients simultaneously, this is incredibly choppy and lag inducing.

It doesn't even take 5-8 clients. With only one client open it noticeably stutters in a pod or interceptor. It looks like the game is running at 10-15 FPS even when running at 60+.
Aid Bringer
Kockegg Industries
Hard Knocks Citizens
#292 - 2016-06-29 21:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aid Bringer
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Aid Bringer wrote:
Drigo Segvian wrote:
Love the little +/- wallet display as transactions process.

+1 CCP



Yeah, its not bad, though I notice they DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM CREATING AN ON/OFF TOGGLE FOR THIS ONE.


Sort of just blows what the Dev said to justify not adding a toggle for the station animation right out of the water, eh?

Common, CCP. Be big, learn to admit mistakes and expedite changes.


Different menu, different team, different circumstance.

The wallet toggle is off in its own little thing. Darwin commented that his team was trying to reduce the complexity of the graphical menus, which the wallet toggle is not among.


As if one more menu tab in the ESC menu would be the end of the world. If they actually researched it I'm betting a significant number of EVE customers would be happy with one or more additional ESC menus that would provide toggles for over a dozen or more "features" that the customers actually hate. The issue is the Dev's don't like us pushing back.

It's okay Devs, be "right". One account expiring in 3 days, the others rippling down in the next two weeks.


I don't care WHERE they put the animation toggle button, they can put it in the wallet menu for all i care, as long as I can turn it off somewhere.

But noooo.... asthetics over functionality, What is this, windows 10?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#293 - 2016-06-29 21:30:01 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Fighter missile attack is broken - CCP please feedback from the threads you put yourself on this forum.
Thanks for reporting this, could you provide more information of the specific attack and fighter type that was not working for you and in what situation? I have been unable to find any issue with the Heavy Rocket Salvo, Micro Missile Swarm, or Torpedo Salvo during testing.

Thanks in advance!

You know, not responding would have been better than the response you gave.

Saying nothing will leave people to make their own decisions where as a poorly worded, ill thought out response ^ just leaves a bad taste.

Out of curiosity, what did you test the heavy rocket salvo on?
How effective was it compared to prior to yesterday? When carriers for the first time in their history didn't need to be in a blob (big or small) to be effectively used in PVP..
There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

When someone informs us that something is "broken", it's my job as a QA Analyst to ascertain whether the feature in question is working to the specification set by our designers. In this case, as there was very little information to work with I went and tested each of the 3 fighter abilities that could be relevant to the post, and determined that they are all working exactly as designed (Per the original design and the updated stats detailed in the forum posts and patch notes).

Whether you like/agree with that design or not has no bearing on whether its "broken", but as you don't appear to be the person who made the original post I'm not going to make assumptions on that point. Either way, the fighter abilities are working as intended.

I'm sorry if you think my post is poorly worded and ill thought out, but hopefully this will go some way to explaining why I made the post I did. Thanks as always for your input.
All you had to do was read the ignored feedback thread started by Larrikin - You would probably have had a clearer idea of what the person you replied to was getting at.

But then, in Eve what player feedback says can be totally irrelevant if Devs want to push something through, Broken or Not, or like these most recent timers, not wanted at all..
All the docking, undocking thing is, whether intended or not - It is just another timer players are forced to live with.

"By design" "Working as intended", things in Eve can still be broken. "Svipuls".

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kaivarian Coste
Whale Patrol
#294 - 2016-06-29 21:38:59 UTC
There was a feedback thread here during testing, and most comments were negative. Reports of nausea / sickness should've raised red flags immediately. That's just common sense.
ISD Lyrin Rands
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#295 - 2016-06-29 22:12:45 UTC
I've deleted a post that only included quotes. Posts that lack content are not allowed and will be removed.

Quote:
23. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

ISD Lyrin Rands

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Fyt 284
Requiem Eternal Holdings
Requiem Eternal
#296 - 2016-06-29 22:17:36 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


Player feedback is incredibly important and influential to the design process.



Obviously it isn't, otherwise you wouldn't have released this ham-fisted carrier nerf. Or the crappy as **** camera changes. Or the nauseating dock/undock animation. You don't spend real time actually listening to the complaints of the people who try to test your game for you, nor do you listen to bug reports, because your patch releases are buggier than a fully booked roach motel.

So please, stop lying to your customer base about how much their feedback matters, because your actions speak far louder than your words.
Hirisho Presolana
Evian Industries
Evictus.
#297 - 2016-06-29 22:19:36 UTC
graphic performances (FPS) in the hangar scene has dropped significantly.. or at least for my pc..
the rest of the game seems to work smoothly..
i think it's due to both advertising and secondat lighting..
there should be a way to disable them..
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
#298 - 2016-06-29 22:46:15 UTC
Hirisho Presolana wrote:
graphic performances (FPS) in the hangar scene has dropped significantly.. or at least for my pc..
the rest of the game seems to work smoothly..
i think it's due to both advertising and secondat lighting..
there should be a way to disable them..

You can disable the lighting by using DirectX 9.
Kasimir Wulf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2016-06-29 23:32:38 UTC
Mesacc wrote:
2005 player here. This will most likely be my last post since my subscription runs out in a day or 2. I cancelled 2 accounts after the removal of the old camera and will not be resubscribing until the new camera is brought up to the quality of the old one. Lack of custom tracking position and tracking camera snap speed along with zoom acceleration are my biggest issues and the fact that these are being ignored while you work on useless docking animations that are clearly hated by the player base does not make my returning look promising. I hope you get your priorities in order because I would love to play EVE for another 10 years.


you do know that theres an option to customize it to the feel you want right? but i guess actually looking into the settings tabs to difficult of a task for you.

cya you won't be missed.
Cerian Alderoth
Cult of the Black Monolith
#300 - 2016-06-29 23:38:52 UTC
The "challenging" design process of CCP has traditionally been a matter of discussion.
For example, the balancing of ship classes is usually broken for many months, if not years.
The EVE community has always adapted to this trying to turn the tides in their favor.

However, many newly introduced design decisions are just broken beyond repair:

  • The skill extractors / skill injectors make accounts attractive targets for criminals.
  • The citadels still lack basic features of NPC stations and player-owned structures.
  • An understaffed Help Center that cannot keep up with common user problems.
  • No documentation whatsoever from CCP on their own single-most product.
  • Experimental user interfaces like the directional scanner, and the map are defaults.
  • The new Launcher gets stuck regularly and uses alot of CPU for virtually nothing.
  • Very questionable camera effects are all activated by default.
  • The docking animation causes nausea for some people.
  • Daily quest(s)? I don't even want to comment on that.
  • ...

The awful thing about getting it right the first time is that nobody realizes how hard it was.

Yes, it is really hard to get it right the first time. But especially in the last year, I realized more and more
that CCP isn't even trying anymore to get it right the first time (by a prematue release).

This all happens while the game becomes visually more attractive. New features are introduced
because "it can be done" instead of because "it is reasonable" in terms of ressources invested.

I know it's hard to keep the subscription numbers up - PLEX offers are now permanently "special" -
but I personally don't want help you with broken design decisions in my free time while paying my subscriptions.