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[118.6] Capital Balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Anthar Thebess
#441 - 2016-06-21 08:36:39 UTC
Maybe just give us anti subcapital fighters - designed to fight sub capitals - something like Light Fighters. Roll
Blaststar Revenge
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#442 - 2016-06-21 09:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Blaststar Revenge
For all the bros interested I updated the google sheet for figther/bomber/etc dps volly ability calculation with the new numbers suggested by CCP.. its set to view only so if you wanna use it just make a copy for yourself to play with it..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QUYXTcG8E7Yxfad_THbmv1Tn_E1hsaon1-AuoIq2GsI/edit?usp=sharing

Your basic ability will have more volly damage then the Missile ability against subcapitals. Web's will become mandatory for the missile ability to have any effect.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#443 - 2016-06-21 10:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
I was reading wrong...
Fyt 284
Requiem Eternal Holdings
Requiem Eternal
#444 - 2016-06-21 11:34:41 UTC
Blaststar Revenge wrote:
For all the bros interested I updated the google sheet for figther/bomber/etc dps volly ability calculation with the new numbers suggested by CCP.. its set to view only so if you wanna use it just make a copy for yourself to play with it..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QUYXTcG8E7Yxfad_THbmv1Tn_E1hsaon1-AuoIq2GsI/edit?usp=sharing

Your basic ability will have more volly damage then the Missile ability against subcapitals. Web's will become mandatory for the missile ability to have any effect.



Which wouldn't be AS much of an issue, if we could use webs / tps / points while running an NSA, but CCP decided that having a 99999% increase in cap use while the NSA is on made sense post nerf. (I completely understand why it was added in the first place, but now it just serves to keep carriers even more crippled)

2 things that would have been viable ideas:
1) Make it so that sensor boosters get the same cap penalty as ewar when the NSA is running, and have the sensor strength at 650% while nerfing the raw damage of missile volleys
2) If you are going to keep the absolutely overbearing nerf numbers, add an additional launch tube ONLY for support fighters, and keep the other tubes damage only. That way carriers have a way to actually be useful, and will have to make choices on which support fighters to bring / use. (since support fighters are generally fairly useless in comparison with damage fighters, even post change.)

Also, thank you for the spreadsheet, I'm going to be playing around with the more.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#445 - 2016-06-21 11:46:55 UTC
the fact that someone else is needed to use webs/scram is not a bad thing

nerfing the raw damage hurts the application to large targets and thats not the issue
C-137
C3 Corporation
#446 - 2016-06-21 11:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
A carrier with two mods post change applies around 4% DPS to a 10mn stiletto. What you're neglecting to mention is that the fighters cannot keep up with that ceptor without MWDing.

Seeing as you don't know how carrier squadron reloads work I'm going to assume you've never flown one and thus have never seen fighters try and keep an orbit or keep at range when MWDing. They're really really bad at it, because they are going so fast. The MWD is great to cover ground and absolutely terrible at remaining on a target. Obviously this is because the overshoot at MWD speeds is utterly hilarious.

tl;dr: Your conclusions are flawed by a lack of experience in actually using these in the game. Sorry Sad



Ed: And the change is not fine, because I'll still spank small things with a handful of carriers. Carriers remain rather comical at the fleet level.


You are just as wrong as your Corpmate on Reddit who thinks that the Fighters apply worse than Caldary Navy Torps. I know that neither Fighters nor Warrios can orbit a 4.5km/s Inty, its in my ******* picture. Do you people seriously not read.

To be fair, there was a minor error with the Damage Reduction Factor (i had the Fighter Gun and Torp switched in a few places). I will just post it without commenting and see if you guys can read

I don't fly Caps, and apparently neither do you or you would have just answered the question.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#447 - 2016-06-21 12:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
So you know the scenario is impossible yet try to use it bolster your position? Ingenious.

Can confirm I don't fly caps Roll


Might I recommend more actual testing and less spreadsheet warrioring? Sisi is right there.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#448 - 2016-06-21 12:20:19 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
So you know the scenario is impossible yet try to use it bolster your position? Ingenious.

Can confirm I don't fly caps Roll


Might I recommend more actual testing and less spreadsheet warrioring? Sisi is right there.


They can orbit with the MWD on, are you so dense?
C-137
C3 Corporation
#449 - 2016-06-21 12:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Blaststar Revenge wrote:
For all the bros interested I updated the google sheet for figther/bomber/etc dps volly ability calculation with the new numbers suggested by CCP.. its set to view only so if you wanna use it just make a copy for yourself to play with it..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QUYXTcG8E7Yxfad_THbmv1Tn_E1hsaon1-AuoIq2GsI/edit?usp=sharing

Your basic ability will have more volly damage then the Missile ability against subcapitals. Web's will become mandatory for the missile ability to have any effect.


You are using 4.0 as the DRF for all fighter guns and 3.0 DRF for fighter torps, and thus your spreadsheet is showing lower than actual dps. Should 3 for the guns and 4 for the Torps, almost doubling your sheet's applied dps vs small targets. Also you are using Log Base 10 instead of the Natural Logarithm.

E: Also you have the Explosion Velocity wrong for Fighter Torps (150 should be 100)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#450 - 2016-06-21 12:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
C-137 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
So you know the scenario is impossible yet try to use it bolster your position? Ingenious.

Can confirm I don't fly caps Roll


Might I recommend more actual testing and less spreadsheet warrioring? Sisi is right there.


They can orbit with the MWD on, are you so dense?



No, they cannot. Like I said, the overshoot is hilarious. Something you'd know if you actually flew the ships you're banging on about.

Maybe they can in your lovely little excel world, however out on TQ what happens is they go shooting past the target like wile e coyote passing the roadrunner off a cliff. And with their RoF it's blind luck for them not to land a 0-1 hit on the way by.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#451 - 2016-06-21 12:29:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
C-137 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
So you know the scenario is impossible yet try to use it bolster your position? Ingenious.

Can confirm I don't fly caps Roll


Might I recommend more actual testing and less spreadsheet warrioring? Sisi is right there.


They can orbit with the MWD on, are you so dense?



No, they cannot. Like I said, the overshoot is hilarious. Something you'd know if you actually flew the ships you're banging on about.

Maybe they can in your lovely little excel world, however out on TQ what happens is they go shooting past the target like wile e coyote passing the roadrunner off a cliff. And with their RoF it's blind luck for them not to land a 0-1 hit on the way by.


They only need to be in range once every 5s for Fighters (4s for Warriors). Even if they slingshot in both directions, they will still land hits.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#452 - 2016-06-21 12:32:18 UTC
Except, once again, if you flew these you'd know that even with an optimal of 4800m, they will still cycle weapons even at 100kms. This means as I said it's blind luck if you can catch them in range at the speeds you're talking about because the guns cycle all the time, not only if ranges are good. Warriors do not have this failing, they only open fire in range.

Yes, it's great on paper but in the real world it just doesn't work like that.

I get it, you're a spreadsheet master, but go test this crap for real for the love of god.
Anthar Thebess
#453 - 2016-06-21 12:36:03 UTC
Yes fighter shooting stuff for 0 damage from 100km is annoying.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#454 - 2016-06-21 12:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Except, once again, if you flew these you'd know that even with an optimal of 4800m, they will still cycle weapons even at 100kms. This means as I said it's blind luck if you can catch them in range at the speeds you're talking about because the guns cycle all the time, not only if ranges are good. Warriors do not have this failing, they only open fire in range.

Yes, it's great on paper but in the real world it just doesn't work like that.

I get it, you're a spreadsheet master, but go test this crap for real for the love of god.


You manually control fighter weapons....

If you don't fly caps, and you don't do math, what the **** are you even doing in this thread?

(In b4 Fighters get jammed by Griffin again)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#455 - 2016-06-21 12:55:52 UTC
Dealing with server ticks at 10km/s? Good luck.

Go get some proof on sisi or hush up to be honest.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#456 - 2016-06-21 13:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Dealing with server ticks at 10km/s? Good luck.

Go get some proof on sisi or hush up to be honest.


Proof of what, that I can click a button every 5 seconds? If I am bored today, I might just do that, but it will take hours I suspect, as I would need 3 accounts, Slaves, T2 Fighters, Max Skills, and they stopped seeding Caps for this afaik.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#457 - 2016-06-21 13:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
C-137 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Dealing with server ticks at 10km/s? Good luck.

Go get some proof on sisi or hush up to be honest.


Proof of what, that I can click a button every 5 seconds?



Go see how fast you kill the ceptor, assuming the pilot isn't brain dead. Go get into your magic thanny (you have one right, this isn't all hilarious theorycraft?) and fire up the proof of them vaporising it.

Should be dead easy, right? How hard can it be pressing a button every x seconds.
Archeras Umangiar
Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere.
We're all going to die.
#458 - 2016-06-21 14:18:25 UTC
can we have a auto cycle for the heavy salvo? it doesn do any sense to have to press it everytime,

worth it is when you actually get "Your fighter pilots are busy. Please wait 46 seconds before giving further movement orders." because you have to more or less spam it. please fix that ccp...
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#459 - 2016-06-21 14:28:43 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi M8s,

With the 118.6 release, we're making some tweaks to a bunch of capital gameplay. We would love your feedback!

Carriers & Fighters
  • Long Range Heavy Fighters (Ametat, Termite, Antaeus, Gungnir) bomb ability now correctly scales with squadron size.
  • Warp Scramblers now stop Fighter MWDs and MJDs mid-cycle.
  • Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution now has a stacking penalty with sensor boosters.
  • Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution reduced to 500% (from 900%)
  • Networked Sensor Array no longer gives a bonus to number of locked targets.
  • Networked Sensor Array sensor strength bonuses now also apply to the Carrier's fighter squadrons.
  • Fighters now have orbit ranges more appropriate to their weapons system (you can see this in Show Info)
  • General Light Fighters (Templar, Dragonfly, Firbolg, Einherji) have had their basic attack application stats increased and their heavy rocket salvo application & damage stats decreased:
  • Basic Attack - Explosion Radius (lower is better): 160 (-80)
    Basic Attack - Explosion Velocity (higher is better): 150 (+30)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Explosion Radius (lower is better): 350 (+250)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Explosion Velocity (higher is better): 100 (-20)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Speed: 14 seconds (-4)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Damage (Average): 146 (-94)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Charges: 12 (+4)
    Heavy Rocket Salvo - Reload Time: 4 seconds (-2)
    * All stats per fighter, before skills/mods.

Force Auxiliaries
  • Triage Mode now gives ECM Immunity
  • Triage Mode's bonus to Sensor Dampener Resistance has been reduced (T1: 60%, T2: 70%)

Dreadnoughts
  • Siege Mode now gives ECM Immunity
  • Siege Module I has had its bonus to missile ROF increased to 80%
  • Siege Mode's bonus to Weapon Disruption Resistance & Sensor Dampener Resistance has been reduced (T1: 60%, T2: 70%)
  • Naglfar now has 3 turret hard-points (and an extra high slot) and has lost its role bonus of +50% damage.
  • Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU and +80,000 PG
  • XL Artillery power grid requirements have been reduced (T1: 162,500 > 125,000)

Miscellaneous
  • Void Bombs now respect Energy Warfare Resistance
  • Void Bombs and Lockbreaker Bombs now give more verbose messages about their effects in the combat log.
  • Missiles now have the correct range when fired from large ships.
  • All Capital Shield Extenders now provide 10% less shield HP.
  • Bastion Module now gives ECM Immunity
  • The missile damage formula has been simplified. Ln(drf) / Ln(5.5) has been reduced to a precalculated value. This change has no effect on game-play! More details below.

There are more changes planned. We will be looking at HAW Tracking (more info here) and Light Fighter application / alpha.

As always, we welcome your feedback!


Again CCP your changes are too harsh

Lower the damage and UP the ROF, that way we can not instapop things but keep the damage

Nerfing the application like this ruins the entire role of carriers in the current meta


Nerokor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#460 - 2016-06-21 14:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerokor
CyberRaver wrote:


Again CCP your changes are too harsh

Lower the damage and UP the ROF, that way we can not instapop things but keep the damage

Nerfing the application like this ruins the entire role of carriers in the current meta




I second this.