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[118.6] Capital Balancing

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#421 - 2016-06-21 04:52:32 UTC
See and I was debating reactivating fully, but between my carrier now being a FAX and Nag ...WTF CCP.... there are too many arguments against it.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#422 - 2016-06-21 05:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Fyt 284 wrote:
After testing on SISI, I have to say that carriers are now worse than they were pre-citadel. Pre patch, while lock times were slow, we at least had the ability to chose drones according to the situation. Now we are locked into severely limited fighters, with no real way to break tackle. We have no application against sub-capital ships, and our damage is too low against capitals to justify using carriers. (Not to mention the fact that we're back to a lone sabre being able to perma-tackle a carrier.)

All in all, I have to ask, what the hell is the point of flying a carrier anymore? We're just expensive killmails now :/


The whining is getting out of control. Do your own math instead of making crap up. Thanatos ingame right now, is the hardest hitting ship ingame vs SubCaps (baring MoMs).

Thanatos does more damage to a 10mn AB Interceptor with Links than a Destroyer or a RLML Caracal.

That is just disgusting and its obvious they need to change it. Even post change, Thanatos is still Top5 for shooting interceptors, probably Top3.

That is not even getting into the FACT that Fighters can Out-run ALL CURRENT MISSILES, thus taking 0 damage.

Thanatos currently out-damages a Tracking Enhanced Glass Cannon Confesser vs 10mnAB Interceptor
Lugh Crow-Slave
#423 - 2016-06-21 05:29:23 UTC
umm.... except its rof is about 10 seconds has a limit of 8 shots and then takes almost 60s to reload....


but wither way we are talking about how they are on SiSi with this patch not how they are on TQ now

after the change the thanny deals almost no damage to an inti and currently the damage they deal is easy to mitigate with logi on field do to the low ROF.


That's not even getting into the FACT that fighters can be perma jammed BY T1 FRIGS thus doing 0 damage

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#424 - 2016-06-21 05:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
umm.... except its rof is about 10 seconds has a limit of 8 shots and then takes almost 60s to reload....


but wither way we are talking about how they are on SiSi with this patch not how they are on TQ now

after the change the thanny deals almost no damage to an inti and currently the damage they deal is easy to mitigate with logi on field do to the low ROF.


That's not even getting into the FACT that fighters can be perma jammed BY T1 FRIGS thus doing 0 damage


You are welcome to prove me wrong, but you would need evidence. The only unknown factors affecting my numbers are:

1) Does fighter refuel time get multiplied by number of fighters in the squadron (5s vs 45s for reload)
2) Is there still a 10% Damage cap that was mentioned months ago? (Fighter Torp weapon supposed to deal 10% damage to Sub-Caps before modifiers)

Aside from those, all the numbers in my posts are in agreement with EFT, PYFA, and EveUni Damage Formulas.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#425 - 2016-06-21 06:13:01 UTC
the reload time is 53 seconds no matter the number of fighters you have

5 second base 6 seconds per charge

as for number 2 considering there is no change to heavy fighters being proposed this is hardly relevant


these ships are strong against sub caps but only if they are tackled

they will not one shot anything decently fit and flown and they will not get two shots off in the time logi can land reps.

and again all you need to completely lock a carrier down is a griffin

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#426 - 2016-06-21 06:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the reload time is 53 seconds no matter the number of fighters you have

5 second base 6 seconds per charge

as for number 2 considering there is no change to heavy fighters being proposed this is hardly relevant


these ships are strong against sub caps but only if they are tackled

they will not one shot anything decently fit and flown and they will not get two shots off in the time logi can land reps.

and again all you need to completely lock a carrier down is a griffin


You don't have a clue do you?

"Q: How does application on type-limited abilities (Micro Missile Swarm, Torpedo Salvo etc.) work?
A: The ability's base damage is reduced to 10% first, and on top of that it has missile application - so a super trying to alpha a HIC will have its Salvo reduced twice."

From the Capital Focus Group, this implies all Secondary Weapons for all Fighters.

Carrier vs Griffin:

Fighter's get jammed, pull fighers in, relaunch, Griffin is on ECM cycle reload (20s). Griffin gets alpha'd off the field as carrier can lock it and apply damage way before even 10s passes. (in before you say the carrier is fighting 1000 KM away and the fighters need travel time)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#427 - 2016-06-21 06:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
.....


well the torpedo salvo is for heavies

and the micro missile is for the supiriority (anti fighter/drone) fighters

the heavy rocket salvo has no reduction as it is meant to hit sub caps

the torps are meant for capitals and micros are meant for drones that is why these have a reduction

so before telling people they don't have a clue maybe you should try fully reading the material not just skimming the FAQ

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#428 - 2016-06-21 06:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
.....


well the torpedo salvo is for heavies

and the micro missile is for the supiriority (anti fighter/drone) fighters

so before telling people they don't have a clue maybe you should try fully reading the material not just skimming the FAQ


So if the Superiority Fighters, and the Heavy Bomber's get damage reduction arbitration, the Light Fighters don't? Why would the Superiority fighter's need this Modifier and not the Light Fighters? Wow so dense.
Fyt 284
Requiem Eternal Holdings
#429 - 2016-06-21 06:27:15 UTC
C-137 wrote:
Fyt 284 wrote:
After testing on SISI, I have to say that carriers are now worse than they were pre-citadel. Pre patch, while lock times were slow, we at least had the ability to chose drones according to the situation. Now we are locked into severely limited fighters, with no real way to break tackle. We have no application against sub-capital ships, and our damage is too low against capitals to justify using carriers. (Not to mention the fact that we're back to a lone sabre being able to perma-tackle a carrier.)

All in all, I have to ask, what the hell is the point of flying a carrier anymore? We're just expensive killmails now :/


The whining is getting out of control. Do your own math instead of making crap up. Thanatos ingame right now, is the hardest hitting ship ingame vs SubCaps (baring MoMs).

Thanatos does more damage to a 10mn AB Interceptor with Links than a Destroyer or a RLML Caracal.

That is just disgusting and its obvious they need to change it. Even post change, Thanatos is still Top5 for shooting interceptors, probably Top3.

That is not even getting into the FACT that Fighters can Out-run ALL CURRENT MISSILES, thus taking 0 damage.

Thanatos currently out-damages a Tracking Enhanced Glass Cannon Confesser vs 10mnAB Interceptor


I am not saying carriers did not need changes, I am saying that the changes they have proposed and put on the test server are completely overbearing and leave no practical use for a carrier. We have no application worth talking about against sub caps, so we are **** out of luck there. We can apply to capitals, but the damage we can bring to bear is pointless in comparison with dreads. Post change, doing 29 damage to a ceptor / dictor is NOT top 5 in terms of application, a vexor can apply better with warriors.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#430 - 2016-06-21 06:28:05 UTC
C-137 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
.....


well the torpedo salvo is for heavies

and the micro missile is for the supiriority (anti fighter/drone) fighters

so before telling people they don't have a clue maybe you should try fully reading the material not just skimming the FAQ


So if the Superiority Fighters, and the Heavy Bomber's get damage reduction arbitration, the Light Fighters don't? Why would the Superiority fighter's need this Modifier and not the Light Fighters? Wow so dense.



are you just trolling now??

the reason heavies get it is because they are only supposed to be used against capitals if they did not they would be broken against sub caps

the reason superiority fighters get it is because they would be broken against everything if they didn't

attack fighters don't because their damage is meant to apply to sub caps what would you reduce their damage against??





Here is where carriers break

Nid/than being given 5% damage bonus (this should have stayed at 2.5% like it was originally)
and the omnis that give way to high of an application bonus remove the Expl vel bonus from them and things would be much better.

do those too things and carriers will stop alphaing cruisers and under

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#431 - 2016-06-21 06:58:08 UTC
Fyt 284 wrote:

I am not saying carriers did not need changes, I am saying that the changes they have proposed and put on the test server are completely overbearing and leave no practical use for a carrier. We have no application worth talking about against sub caps, so we are **** out of luck there. We can apply to capitals, but the damage we can bring to bear is pointless in comparison with dreads. Post change, doing 29 damage to a ceptor / dictor is NOT top 5 in terms of application, a vexor can apply better with warriors.


Current Thanatos does more applied damage to 10mnAB Interceptor than Vexxor with Warrior IIs.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#432 - 2016-06-21 07:01:12 UTC
Again not talking about current we are talking about the upcoming...is English your second language by chance?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#433 - 2016-06-21 07:04:44 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Again not talking about current we are talking about the upcoming...is English your second language by chance?


You must be ******* stupid, my numbers have both Pre and Post changes, stop trolling and read.
Fyt 284
Requiem Eternal Holdings
#434 - 2016-06-21 07:11:00 UTC
C-137 wrote:
Fyt 284 wrote:

I am not saying carriers did not need changes, I am saying that the changes they have proposed and put on the test server are completely overbearing and leave no practical use for a carrier. We have no application worth talking about against sub caps, so we are **** out of luck there. We can apply to capitals, but the damage we can bring to bear is pointless in comparison with dreads. Post change, doing 29 damage to a ceptor / dictor is NOT top 5 in terms of application, a vexor can apply better with warriors.


Current Thanatos does more applied damage to 10mnAB Interceptor than Vexxor with Warrior IIs.


I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CURRENT APPLICATION! I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NUMBERS POSTED IN THIS THREAD, THAT ARE NOW ON SISI. LEARN TO READ.
C-137
C3 Corporation
#435 - 2016-06-21 07:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: C-137
Fyt 284 wrote:
C-137 wrote:
Fyt 284 wrote:

I am not saying carriers did not need changes, I am saying that the changes they have proposed and put on the test server are completely overbearing and leave no practical use for a carrier. We have no application worth talking about against sub caps, so we are **** out of luck there. We can apply to capitals, but the damage we can bring to bear is pointless in comparison with dreads. Post change, doing 29 damage to a ceptor / dictor is NOT top 5 in terms of application, a vexor can apply better with warriors.


Current Thanatos does more applied damage to 10mnAB Interceptor than Vexxor with Warrior IIs.


I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CURRENT APPLICATION! I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NUMBERS POSTED IN THIS THREAD, THAT ARE NOW ON SISI. LEARN TO READ.


THEY ARE IN THE PICTURE, you learn to read moron. How can you guys be so dense. The numbers in my picture are for Current Thanny AND Sisi Thanny. Holy **** I thought Eve players were supposed to be smart.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#436 - 2016-06-21 07:25:37 UTC
yes and like he said the sisi one applies far far worse than a vexor with warriors you just proved the point

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#437 - 2016-06-21 07:30:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
yes and like he said the sisi one applies far far worse than a vexor with warriors you just proved the point


What nonsense are you smoking? My numbers show Current Thanny is the highest damaging Ship vs Interceptors in the game (aside from MoMs). You can't just make **** up and say I proved it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#438 - 2016-06-21 07:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
.. okay get the current one out just throw it away we are not talking about it

your numbers show sisi 15dps

warrior 47

15dps applied is not the highest applied to an inty

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
C-137
C3 Corporation
#439 - 2016-06-21 07:44:10 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
.. okay get the current one out just throw it away we are not talking about it

your numbers show sisi 15dps

warrior 47

15dps applied is not the highest applied to an inty


And thats why the change is fine. Unless you want Fighters doing more DPS than Warriors vs Interceptors like currently.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#440 - 2016-06-21 07:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
A carrier with two mods post change applies around 4% DPS to a 10mn stiletto. What you're neglecting to mention is that the fighters cannot keep up with that ceptor without MWDing.

Seeing as you don't know how carrier squadron reloads work I'm going to assume you've never flown one and thus have never seen fighters try and keep an orbit or keep at range when MWDing. They're really really bad at it, because they are going so fast. The MWD is great to cover ground and absolutely terrible at remaining on a target. Obviously this is because the overshoot at MWD speeds is utterly hilarious.

tl;dr: Your conclusions are flawed by a lack of experience in actually using these in the game. Sorry Sad



Ed: And the change is not fine, because I'll still spank small things with a handful of carriers. Carriers remain rather comical at the fleet level.