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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1221 - 2011-12-03 23:31:18 UTC
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.

And they can´t change that. Because they have already designed someone for these roles: the Minmatar. and since the Gallente mustn´t become like the Minmatar, they can´t become a dedicated close-combat/sniper race any more.

Cap-free weapons for combat exclusively within nos/neut range, multiple damage types to decrease the time to kill (thus making up for the increase of the ttk due to getting into range), the fastest and most agile ships to get into range (and shield tanks so you don´t need to gimp your speed to get EHP)... this is how a close combat race looks like. And yes, it´s 100% Minmatar, they are perfectly adapted for close range combat.

For sniping: sniping is everywhere all about fast and agile units, high alpha and low rate of fire (oh look, it´s the Minmatar again) There are reasons for it. You really can´t have a reasonable sniping mechanic without these characteristics. This is why sniping is pointless now and why the change to probing were needed when sniping was still a thing.

Meaning of course, you can only have sniping together with Artys and Minmatar. Trying to make rails and Gallente to do sniping is complete nonsense.

So, for close combat and sniping you need the Minmatar, and the Gallente will never be able to do it adequately (ironically they are designed to fit into the combat roles the Minmatar are currently covering... seemingly op, because all the advantages needed to make close combat competitive are married with the most flexible engagement ranges).

This is how the devs have designed the races, their ships, their weapons. It might have been unintentionally, the current state is the result of many many small changes over the years after all, so something like this can happen.
But unintentionally or not, the devs have done it and now there are so many problems with balancing that you can´t ignore it any more. And you can´t fix it with a little more dps here and tracking there, because you are trying to go against the basic design of the races, trying to force them into roles they are not suited for and prevent them to fill out roles they are suited for.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Nathan Andersons
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#1222 - 2011-12-06 03:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathan Andersons
Just a thought and something to consider,

but why not make rails slow rof and high alpha and artillery higher rof and lower alpha. Dont you think it would take longer for a rail gun to reload then it would an artillery shell^

Just a thought.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1223 - 2011-12-07 20:11:52 UTC
So CCP are you going to announce some further hybrid guns and boat changes for January or are you waiting for maximum rage quit effect from your players?

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1224 - 2011-12-22 11:29:19 UTC
Ccp ? Anything ???
Davon Kastire
Shields Of The State
#1225 - 2011-12-29 17:24:47 UTC
Sebastian N Cain's comment should be getting more attention from CCP that it already is...surprisingly it's getting none.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1226 - 2011-12-31 04:29:23 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.

And they can´t change that. Because they have already designed someone for these roles: the Minmatar. and since the Gallente mustn´t become like the Minmatar, they can´t become a dedicated close-combat/sniper race any more.

Cap-free weapons for combat exclusively within nos/neut range, multiple damage types to decrease the time to kill (thus making up for the increase of the ttk due to getting into range), the fastest and most agile ships to get into range (and shield tanks so you don´t need to gimp your speed to get EHP)... this is how a close combat race looks like. And yes, it´s 100% Minmatar, they are perfectly adapted for close range combat.

For sniping: sniping is everywhere all about fast and agile units, high alpha and low rate of fire (oh look, it´s the Minmatar again) There are reasons for it. You really can´t have a reasonable sniping mechanic without these characteristics. This is why sniping is pointless now and why the change to probing were needed when sniping was still a thing.

Meaning of course, you can only have sniping together with Artys and Minmatar. Trying to make rails and Gallente to do sniping is complete nonsense.

So, for close combat and sniping you need the Minmatar, and the Gallente will never be able to do it adequately (ironically they are designed to fit into the combat roles the Minmatar are currently covering... seemingly op, because all the advantages needed to make close combat competitive are married with the most flexible engagement ranges).

This is how the devs have designed the races, their ships, their weapons. It might have been unintentionally, the current state is the result of many many small changes over the years after all, so something like this can happen.
But unintentionally or not, the devs have done it and now there are so many problems with balancing that you can´t ignore it any more. And you can´t fix it with a little more dps here and tracking there, because you are trying to go against the basic design of the races, trying to force them into roles they are not suited for and prevent them to fill out roles they are suited for.


This.

The projectile turrets as is, are ridiculously the best weapon in any possible scenario, except maybe structure shooting, and only then because you have to fill a cargo hold full of ammo.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1227 - 2012-01-04 09:11:01 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.


Great post. I have been saying this ever since we started discussing crucible hybrid changes. Hybrids and gallente in general are just so full of contradictions.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1228 - 2012-01-07 22:48:51 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.


Great post. I have been saying this ever since we started discussing crucible hybrid changes. Hybrids and gallente in general are just so full of contradictions.


Simple but outrageous solution, switch the falloff of every projetile/hyrbid turret.
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#1229 - 2012-01-11 12:12:01 UTC
how about amarr buff?

gallente had fitting issues cause of cpu/pg before expansion,amarr still has it until this day. + gallente ships and hybrids seem overpowered to me right now.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1230 - 2012-01-11 12:30:20 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:
how about amarr buff?

gallente had fitting issues cause of cpu/pg before expansion,amarr still has it until this day. + gallente ships and hybrids seem overpowered to me right now.


HAHA :) Overpowered :) Ever tried to FLY ANY ? lol
GAL SHIP OP !! LOL give me a break bro ... hahahah
Jin Jukie
Veni Vidi Vici Reloaded
#1231 - 2012-01-12 20:11:22 UTC
pvp the gallente way,
Step 1 convo your target, get him to pull over so you can land in his cargo bay.
Step 2 let your cap recharge
Step 3 use smartboms to destroy your target, Even though your sitting in your targets cargobay
your still out of range for blasters...
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1232 - 2012-01-13 01:11:57 UTC
Jin Jukie wrote:
pvp the gallente way,
Step 1 convo your target, get him to pull over so you can land in his cargo bay.
Step 2 let your cap recharge
Step 3 use smartboms to destroy your target, Even though your sitting in your targets cargobay
your still out of range for blasters...


Heh :) Perfect ! :)
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#1233 - 2012-01-13 18:56:33 UTC
Jin Jukie wrote:
pvp the gallente way,
Step 1 convo your target, get him to pull over so you can land in his cargo bay.
Step 2 let your cap recharge
Step 3 use smartboms to destroy your target, Even though your sitting in your targets cargobay
your still out of range for blasters...



actualy,you`re so wrong.and i can assume you havent flown gallente yet after the patch
Jin Jukie
Veni Vidi Vici Reloaded
#1234 - 2012-01-13 21:28:50 UTC
assume away.
but my tat says your wrong.
PJRiddick
CherryHill
#1235 - 2012-01-14 06:45:01 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.

And they can´t change that. Because they have already designed someone for these roles: the Minmatar. and since the Gallente mustn´t become like the Minmatar, they can´t become a dedicated close-combat/sniper race any more.

First off,...rails by desigh are uber long range sniper weapons. Im not sure where blasters come in but as far as rails go, Long range is there intent, with acuracy.
I remember a blog about futuristic weapons that the u.s. milatary was designing and rails wereone of the weapons that was proposed.
Imagine a weapon that would fire a 300 llb slug 4 and 5 times the speed of sound that could hit a target 100 miles down range with the acuracy with in a couple feet,....really impressive. From what i understand,...the U.S.milatary actually has such a weapon,...That ive heard.
SO,...CCP,...give us this uber long range weapon with all the benifits!

Cap-free weapons for combat exclusively within nos/neut range, multiple damage types to decrease the time to kill (thus making up for the increase of the ttk due to getting into range), the fastest and most agile ships to get into range (and shield tanks so you don´t need to gimp your speed to get EHP)... this is how a close combat race looks like. And yes, it´s 100% Minmatar, they are perfectly adapted for close range combat.

For sniping: sniping is everywhere all about fast and agile units, high alpha and low rate of fire (oh look, it´s the Minmatar again) There are reasons for it. You really can´t have a reasonable sniping mechanic without these characteristics. This is why sniping is pointless now and why the change to probing were needed when sniping was still a thing.

Ive got to admit, i use to use artilary on my MEGA,..worked out great too, hits hard too. I went to rails just for the bonuses, but regardless the artis hit harder and did a much better job. That was before the love CCP gave the rails.

Meaning of course, you can only have sniping together with Artys and Minmatar. Trying to make rails and Gallente to do sniping is complete nonsense.

So, for close combat and sniping you need the Minmatar, and the Gallente will never be able to do it adequately (ironically they are designed to fit into the combat roles the Minmatar are currently covering... seemingly op, because all the advantages needed to make close combat competitive are married with the most flexible engagement ranges).

This is how the devs have designed the races, their ships, their weapons. It might have been unintentionally, the current state is the result of many many small changes over the years after all, so something like this can happen.
But unintentionally or not, the devs have done it and now there are so many problems with balancing that you can´t ignore it any more. And you can´t fix it with a little more dps here and tracking there, because you are trying to go against the basic design of the races, trying to force them into roles they are not suited for and prevent them to fill out roles they are suited for.


Act fast CCP,....Gal is on the come back,...give us some more lovein!
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1236 - 2012-01-15 02:28:12 UTC
PJRiddick wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.

And they can´t change that. Because they have already designed someone for these roles: the Minmatar. and since the Gallente mustn´t become like the Minmatar, they can´t become a dedicated close-combat/sniper race any more.

First off,...rails by desigh are uber long range sniper weapons. Im not sure where blasters come in but as far as rails go, Long range is there intent, with acuracy.
I remember a blog about futuristic weapons that the u.s. milatary was designing and rails wereone of the weapons that was proposed.
Imagine a weapon that would fire a 300 llb slug 4 and 5 times the speed of sound that could hit a target 100 miles down range with the acuracy with in a couple feet,....really impressive. From what i understand,...the U.S.milatary actually has such a weapon,...That ive heard.
SO,...CCP,...give us this uber long range weapon with all the benifits!

Cap-free weapons for combat exclusively within nos/neut range, multiple damage types to decrease the time to kill (thus making up for the increase of the ttk due to getting into range), the fastest and most agile ships to get into range (and shield tanks so you don´t need to gimp your speed to get EHP)... this is how a close combat race looks like. And yes, it´s 100% Minmatar, they are perfectly adapted for close range combat.

For sniping: sniping is everywhere all about fast and agile units, high alpha and low rate of fire (oh look, it´s the Minmatar again) There are reasons for it. You really can´t have a reasonable sniping mechanic without these characteristics. This is why sniping is pointless now and why the change to probing were needed when sniping was still a thing.

Ive got to admit, i use to use artilary on my MEGA,..worked out great too, hits hard too. I went to rails just for the bonuses, but regardless the artis hit harder and did a much better job. That was before the love CCP gave the rails.

Meaning of course, you can only have sniping together with Artys and Minmatar. Trying to make rails and Gallente to do sniping is complete nonsense.

So, for close combat and sniping you need the Minmatar, and the Gallente will never be able to do it adequately (ironically they are designed to fit into the combat roles the Minmatar are currently covering... seemingly op, because all the advantages needed to make close combat competitive are married with the most flexible engagement ranges).

This is how the devs have designed the races, their ships, their weapons. It might have been unintentionally, the current state is the result of many many small changes over the years after all, so something like this can happen.
But unintentionally or not, the devs have done it and now there are so many problems with balancing that you can´t ignore it any more. And you can´t fix it with a little more dps here and tracking there, because you are trying to go against the basic design of the races, trying to force them into roles they are not suited for and prevent them to fill out roles they are suited for.


Act fast CCP,....Gal is on the come back,...give us some more lovein!

I dont think that they can do anything more with gal ships. They should but im afraid that they dont have idea how... Sad
Aisha's Vengence
#1237 - 2012-01-17 01:25:04 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
The reason hybrids are failures is because they are actually not close-range / sniper weapons. Yet the devs are trying to make them work in a field they are not designed for.

And they can´t change that. Because they have already designed someone for these roles: the Minmatar. and since the Gallente mustn´t become like the Minmatar, they can´t become a dedicated close-combat/sniper race any more.

Cap-free weapons for combat exclusively within nos/neut range, multiple damage types to decrease the time to kill (thus making up for the increase of the ttk due to getting into range), the fastest and most agile ships to get into range (and shield tanks so you don´t need to gimp your speed to get EHP)... this is how a close combat race looks like. And yes, it´s 100% Minmatar, they are perfectly adapted for close range combat.

For sniping: sniping is everywhere all about fast and agile units, high alpha and low rate of fire (oh look, it´s the Minmatar again) There are reasons for it. You really can´t have a reasonable sniping mechanic without these characteristics. This is why sniping is pointless now and why the change to probing were needed when sniping was still a thing.

Meaning of course, you can only have sniping together with Artys and Minmatar. Trying to make rails and Gallente to do sniping is complete nonsense.

So, for close combat and sniping you need the Minmatar, and the Gallente will never be able to do it adequately (ironically they are designed to fit into the combat roles the Minmatar are currently covering... seemingly op, because all the advantages needed to make close combat competitive are married with the most flexible engagement ranges).

This is how the devs have designed the races, their ships, their weapons. It might have been unintentionally, the current state is the result of many many small changes over the years after all, so something like this can happen.
But unintentionally or not, the devs have done it and now there are so many problems with balancing that you can´t ignore it any more. And you can´t fix it with a little more dps here and tracking there, because you are trying to go against the basic design of the races, trying to force them into roles they are not suited for and prevent them to fill out roles they are suited for.


Can't find anything wrong with this. FML
PJRiddick
CherryHill
#1238 - 2012-01-19 14:45:21 UTC
Please excuse this post but with this coming update, are there going to be any new goodies that i can expect, upgraded hybrids,...new Armor things, bonuses,...Anything?

I know that CCP gave the hypbrids some lovin this past patch but they have talked about doing more,..im just asking.

Thanks in kind

-=+>xXx<+=-
Riddick
Fly safe and eat yoru vegatables
arenta Andedare
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1239 - 2012-01-21 20:25:50 UTC
I believe that the gallente is extremely underpowered and requires a boost in not only the weapons but also the tanking. Armor tanking doesn't work out as well as shield in my experiences. Also, if they want to make the hybrid weapons better, they should upgrade them in all aspects, like damage, range and time taken per round (for a higher dps). I believe more with the time taken per cycle than damage and range, so it is unique in its own way.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1240 - 2012-01-25 09:13:11 UTC
It's going ot be difficult to get accurate feedback on these changes. Hybrids have been the most underpowered weapon system in the game for years. As a result of this there are far fewer people skilled to used them to make feed back usefull.

The only way to get many people to change their skills to use them would be to make them overpowered relative to the other turret weapons as why train for a different weapon taking time when you already have something just as good. This would just create another imballance in the game though.

Overall I think Hybrids were left in a state of disrepair for too long a time. Shame there are too many flaming trollers on these forums for CCP to see through the BS and know what needed fixing.