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[Citadel] Tweak to Black Ops jump fatigue bonus

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#101 - 2016-04-01 14:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
if anything instead of improving the reduction the reduction should be reduced even further. nobody wants to fight unwinable blobs.

everybody playing this game. wants GOOD, FUN fights. not fights that are 1 sided. those are not enjoyable and take away from playing.


Speak for yourself. There is no such thing as a good fight, just fights in which one person has no choice not to fight.

well. things must be hard times in your area of eve. but in our area. people enjoy good old 15v15.


besides if no fight in eve is a "good fight" why does everybody say gf after somebody explodes?


For some, it is sarcasm. For others, it is a respectful salute.

I'll say this, I give someone a "gf" whether it was my Sabre killing their exploration frigate inside a relic site, or their Nightmare smoking my cyno alt, or my friends and I undocking to kill the aforementioned Nightmare before he can dock up.

My point is, I don't go looking for perfectly balanced fights. I go looking for fights. If I think I can win, I take the fight. I personally get just as much joy out of hunting and trapping a PVE Tengu trying to run an escalation in my space as I do out of a close 10 versus 10 that my side wins because our pilots work together better, or we had something the other side couldn't counter, or we made less mistakes than they did.

And to get it back on topic - most Black Ops fights are one-sided slaughters. They still take some skill and luck to pull off, so they are fun. And, if you are on defense, and manage to trap and kill said Black Ops hotdroppers, there is no sweeter feeling in all of Eve.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#102 - 2016-04-06 06:48:00 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP needs to choose from this list, since most requests pours into these :

1- add covert ops cloak.
2- T2 resist.
2- more jump range.
3- less consumed fuel.
4- more fire power.
5- D-scan immunity.
6- hull bonus to EWAR.

Mix and match CCP Lol


Not a single one of these is needed blops a far as their hulls go are one of if not the most balanced ships in eve

They were hit in the cross fire with jump fatigue so with this further reduction they will be fine

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#103 - 2016-04-06 07:44:10 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP needs to choose from this list, since most requests pours into these :

1- add covert ops cloak.
2- T2 resist.
2- more jump range.
3- less consumed fuel.
4- more fire power.
5- D-scan immunity.
6- hull bonus to EWAR.

Mix and match CCP Lol



You dont understand much about blops.

1: They don't need it. Do you understand how to use the role bonus so you can align while cloaked? No recalibration penalty too!
2: They absolutely do not need it. If you want a battleship made for toe to toe combat, get a marauder. Maneuverability. Damage. Tank. Pick two. Otherwise its not a balanced ship really. They are specialized ships for a specialized task. Being jump capable really should have big trade offs, definitely not exceeding or just being better than a t1 BS. If they had T2 resists and could jump, and could cloak, they would outclass too much in the size category.
3: It's already pretty trivial.
4: They can push 800 to 1000+ dps easy.
5: They have a cloak.

They are made for ambush tactics. The real things they need to work on are base scan resolution and perhaps a built in MJD. Give them an overheat bonus on jumping for 30s, or anything else that makes them better at ambushing, but still really terrible, or a least a poor choice, for extended brawls

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#104 - 2016-04-06 07:51:03 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Cool deal now give them Dscan Immunity. So they can do work with both Force Recons and Combat Recons.


Yeah, because warp speed wouldn't be a problem here at all.

Whisperen wrote:
Fix blops.
1.Add covert cloak and remove speed and mobility bonus.
2.Convert sin, redeemer and panther to ewar battleships like the widow.
3.Remove all Jump fatigue reductions.


Sin can sport an impressive amount of neuts and damage at the same time. Neuts remain one of the best types of EWAR.
Other than that, most of the T1 BS designs stray away from EWAR bonuses besides neuts; the only exceptions are the Scorp and the Widow. A game with specialists is interesting, especially when there are tradeoffs. Thank goodness there isn't a damp based battleship!

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Oxide Ammar
#105 - 2016-04-06 08:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Sin can sport an impressive amount of neuts and damage at the same time. Neuts remain one of the best types of EWAR.


For someone who doesn't understand much about blops, neuts aren't EWAR here a guide it might help you.

And as I stated in previous post, any blop try to do hit and run without neut is dead blop. any Ratting carriers and marauder worth his salt can tank your blop pathetic dps and that is why bridging cheap bombers to rain havoc on target is much feasible than doing in blops. they can outdps the ratting target with not single neut been done. On the other hand you can't bring that number of blops to do same. You either work solo or in small gank but you ALWAYS have to bring neuts. Therefore mandatory neuts is considered a bad design that is why people proposing suggestions.

CCP is trying to make titans usable other than bridging fleets, that is why they are adding all these cool DDs and new mods, I don't see harm doing same to blops.

Also just for the record the list I made wasn't proposed by me, I was summing community proposals ...idiot...

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#106 - 2016-04-06 17:29:59 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Sin can sport an impressive amount of neuts and damage at the same time. Neuts remain one of the best types of EWAR.


For someone who doesn't understand much about blops, neuts aren't EWAR here a guide it might help you.

And as I stated in previous post, any blop try to do hit and run without neut is dead blop. any Ratting carriers and marauder worth his salt can tank your blop pathetic dps and that is why bridging cheap bombers to rain havoc on target is much feasible than doing in blops. they can outdps the ratting target with not single neut been done. On the other hand you can't bring that number of blops to do same. You either work solo or in small gank but you ALWAYS have to bring neuts. Therefore mandatory neuts is considered a bad design that is why people proposing suggestions.

CCP is trying to make titans usable other than bridging fleets, that is why they are adding all these cool DDs and new mods, I don't see harm doing same to blops.

Also just for the record the list I made wasn't proposed by me, I was summing community proposals ...idiot...



Please post with your main. I don't think you realize how much I have used blops, it doesn't really look on the surface like you have much at all.

Neuts are defacto, pseudo, or effectively a type of EWAR.

You would not want to waste mids on a Panther to target paint, nor would you want to waste mids on a Sin to sensor dampen. Tracking disrupting Redeemers? Yeah, sorry that is just daffy. One of the biggest issues with the widow is that it has issues trying to be a falcon at the same time as other things.

Blops BS just need a few tweaks to make them functionally less clunky than their smaller cousins. Heck, if you could jump yourself AND your gang like a command destroyer at the same time, it would be helpful too.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Hemmo Paskiainen
#107 - 2016-04-10 17:41:47 UTC
Hello Fozzie,

Please check my previous posts from years ago, if you guys are perhaps looking for some good change idea's about black ops.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Hemmo Paskiainen
#108 - 2016-04-10 17:45:12 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Sin can sport an impressive amount of neuts and damage at the same time. Neuts remain one of the best types of EWAR.


For someone who doesn't understand much about blops, neuts aren't EWAR here a guide it might help you.

And as I stated in previous post, any blop try to do hit and run without neut is dead blop. any Ratting carriers and marauder worth his salt can tank your blop pathetic dps and that is why bridging cheap bombers to rain havoc on target is much feasible than doing in blops. they can outdps the ratting target with not single neut been done. On the other hand you can't bring that number of blops to do same. You either work solo or in small gank but you ALWAYS have to bring neuts. Therefore mandatory neuts is considered a bad design that is why people proposing suggestions.

CCP is trying to make titans usable other than bridging fleets, that is why they are adding all these cool DDs and new mods, I don't see harm doing same to blops.

Also just for the record the list I made wasn't proposed by me, I was summing community proposals ...idiot...



Please post with your main. I don't think you realize how much I have used blops, it doesn't really look on the surface like you have much at all.

Neuts are defacto, pseudo, or effectively a type of EWAR.

You would not want to waste mids on a Panther to target paint, nor would you want to waste mids on a Sin to sensor dampen. Tracking disrupting Redeemers? Yeah, sorry that is just daffy. One of the biggest issues with the widow is that it has issues trying to be a falcon at the same time as other things.

Blops BS just need a few tweaks to make them functionally less clunky than their smaller cousins. Heck, if you could jump yourself AND your gang like a command destroyer at the same time, it would be helpful too.


The only real solution is class diversification with a dual split niche coverage. Think like: sb/oracle class, cruiserclass, battleshipclass and anti capitalclass

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#109 - 2016-04-13 10:42:19 UTC
Can we please go back to the old jump portal animation the new one looks at best half finished and it certainly doesn't fit with the lore of it being a ship generated wh

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sessuale
Trillium Invariant
Honorable Third Party
#110 - 2016-04-14 03:52:16 UTC
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#111 - 2016-04-16 18:12:37 UTC
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#112 - 2016-04-16 18:44:09 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

Just look at the killboards for a good laugh. 99% of the people flying Black Ops are dumb **** terrible at it.
A friend of mine joined "Did he say Jump" a while ago and he told me what restrictions they set on Black Ops fittings. I told him to leave that steaming pile of **** right away, all while laughing my ass off so hard that it really hurt.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#113 - 2016-04-16 19:14:11 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

Just look at the killboards for a good laugh. 99% of the people flying Black Ops are dumb **** terrible at it.
A friend of mine joined "Did he say Jump" a while ago and he told me what restrictions they set on Black Ops fittings. I told him to leave that steaming pile of **** right away, all while laughing my ass off so hard that it really hurt.


Lol I feel the same way when people a say the sin is worthless

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#114 - 2016-04-17 03:38:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

The buffs that I proposed are not buffs to BlOps role, but removing the pain points of BlOps. Right now it is VERY difficult to get a solid fit without resorting to faction and deadspace fits. The other changes are for the Widow to become a DPS boat, the Sin to be focused on a single weapon system, and to make the ship bonuses more useful. You're right: they absolutely do their role and do it well. BlOps don't need much. They only need to have their big frustrations and pain points removed/reduced.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#115 - 2016-04-17 11:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Aliventi wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

The buffs that I proposed are not buffs to BlOps role, but removing the pain points of BlOps. Right now it is VERY difficult to get a solid fit without resorting to faction and deadspace fits. The other changes are for the Widow to become a DPS boat, the Sin to be focused on a single weapon system, and to make the ship bonuses more useful. You're right: they absolutely do their role and do it well. BlOps don't need much. They only need to have their big frustrations and pain points removed/reduced.



but there is nothing wrong with the widows ECM bonus and it already gets one of the highest DPS outputs of the blops line. the ecm bonus is best used by not making the widow a full ECM platform but just adding 1-2 ecm mods

the sin having a blaster and drone bonus is also good for balance. It lets the ship immidietly get half of its DPS on targets once it lands w/o needing to lock but to get the rest of it they need to chose between taking a lock penalty do to having a cloak or take advantage of their higher than adv sensors by going w/o one.


as for the fitting i suppose that could be changed but i have never found an issue mostly because i almost always faction and deadspace fit these ships in order to give them the best chance of coming home

the speed bonus of the panther is probbably one of the better ones a blops can have so idk why you want that changed

as for the sins agility it has become very useful now that fatigue is a thing if you don't want to cyno back you will be the first blops home. In a fight it can help you gtfo if you see things are about to go **** up. Now while im not a fan of bonuses designed to help you run it does fit in with the role of blops

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#116 - 2016-04-17 13:34:10 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

The buffs that I proposed are not buffs to BlOps role, but removing the pain points of BlOps. Right now it is VERY difficult to get a solid fit without resorting to faction and deadspace fits. The other changes are for the Widow to become a DPS boat, the Sin to be focused on a single weapon system, and to make the ship bonuses more useful. You're right: they absolutely do their role and do it well. BlOps don't need much. They only need to have their big frustrations and pain points removed/reduced.



but there is nothing wrong with the widows ECM bonus and it already gets one of the highest DPS outputs of the blops line. the ecm bonus is best used by not making the widow a full ECM platform but just adding 1-2 ecm mods

the sin having a blaster and drone bonus is also good for balance. It lets the ship immidietly get half of its DPS on targets once it lands w/o needing to lock but to get the rest of it they need to chose between taking a lock penalty do to having a cloak or take advantage of their higher than adv sensors by going w/o one.


as for the fitting i suppose that could be changed but i have never found an issue mostly because i almost always faction and deadspace fit these ships in order to give them the best chance of coming home

the speed bonus of the panther is probbably one of the better ones a blops can have so idk why you want that changed

as for the sins agility it has become very useful now that fatigue is a thing if you don't want to cyno back you will be the first blops home. In a fight it can help you gtfo if you see things are about to go **** up. Now while im not a fan of bonuses designed to help you run it does fit in with the role of blops

Ships should have roles. Those roles should mesh to make an effective fleet. If you have a single ship that can do multiple roles rather well then you negate another ship who's roles has been take. BlOps BS should be the biggest damage dealers, EWAR should come from Recons, and low SP/low cost DPS should come from the bombers/SoE ships. The Widow makes bridging EWAR along pretty useless because the Widow does DPS and EWAR effectively. Getting the roles right and making sure that ships don't overstep their boundaries is important for balancing risk and reward. That's why the Widow should lose the ECM bonus and become a damage boat. If you want EWAR bridge a recon, or a few, along.

Idk how you are getting your drones to agress without the target agressing you... Focusing the Sin would just make it easier to fit, as you only need damage/tracking mods for one weapon system, and easier to use without feeling like a bonus has been wasted. Pain point removed.

While I understand that the agility and velocity bonuses are useful, MJDs > velocity and agility bonus for getting out of a bad situation. When things go south the first thing you do is either warp away if you are aligned or MJD away if you aren't. MJD + cloaked velocity bonus virtually guarantees that you will get away. It's one of the only cases where a ship mod is more useful than a ship bonus.

Essentially every time I suggest removing the agility and velocity bonuses people go "But those bonuses are so useful!" without really considering what else that bonus could be replaced with. Take a minute and think about other potentially useful bonuses that could fill that slot (tracking, MJD cycle time, etc.) I agree that they do add flavor so we could advocate for CCP to roll them into the base stats of the ship, like they did with HACs, and replace the bonus.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#117 - 2016-04-17 13:39:10 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Idk how you are getting your drones to agress without the target agressing you...

Assign drones to the HK and have him cycle an aggressive module.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#118 - 2016-04-17 13:41:55 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Idk how you are getting your drones to agress without the target agressing you...

Assign drones to the HK and have him cycle an aggressive module.

Oh the time you save by assigning your drones over locking the target! /s
Lugh Crow-Slave
#119 - 2016-04-17 18:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Aliventi wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sessuale wrote:
Ready for more changes to the blood, side of things. make them great again with less fatigue, immunity to d, and more DPs. They already cost a ton.


I really want to know how you guys are flying these things that you feel they need a buff

They have a job they do it well and they don't step on each others toes

The buffs that I proposed are not buffs to BlOps role, but removing the pain points of BlOps. Right now it is VERY difficult to get a solid fit without resorting to faction and deadspace fits. The other changes are for the Widow to become a DPS boat, the Sin to be focused on a single weapon system, and to make the ship bonuses more useful. You're right: they absolutely do their role and do it well. BlOps don't need much. They only need to have their big frustrations and pain points removed/reduced.



but there is nothing wrong with the widows ECM bonus and it already gets one of the highest DPS outputs of the blops line. the ecm bonus is best used by not making the widow a full ECM platform but just adding 1-2 ecm mods.

the sin having a blaster and drone bonus is also good for balance. It lets the ship immidietly get half of its DPS on targets once it lands w/o needing to lock but to get the rest of it they need to chose between taking a lock penalty do to having a cloak or take advantage of their higher than adv sensors by going w/o one.


as for the fitting i suppose that could be changed but i have never found an issue mostly because i almost always faction and deadspace fit these ships in order to give them the best chance of coming home

the speed bonus of the panther is probbably one of the better ones a blops can have so idk why you want that changed

as for the sins agility it has become very useful now that fatigue is a thing if you don't want to cyno back you will be the first blops home. In a fight it can help you gtfo if you see things are about to go **** up. Now while im not a fan of bonuses designed to help you run it does fit in with the role of blops

Ships should have roles. Those roles should mesh to make an effective fleet. If you have a single ship that can do multiple roles rather well then you negate another ship who's roles has been take. BlOps BS should be the biggest damage dealers, EWAR should come from Recons, and low SP/low cost DPS should come from the bombers/SoE ships. The Widow makes bridging EWAR along pretty useless because the Widow does DPS and EWAR effectively. Getting the roles right and making sure that ships don't overstep their boundaries is important for balancing risk and reward. That's why the Widow should lose the ECM bonus and become a damage boat. If you want EWAR bridge a recon, or a few, along.

Idk how you are getting your drones to agress without the target agressing you... Focusing the Sin would just make it easier to fit, as you only need damage/tracking mods for one weapon system, and easier to use without feeling like a bonus has been wasted. Pain point removed.

While I understand that the agility and velocity bonuses are useful, MJDs > velocity and agility bonus for getting out of a bad situation. When things go south the first thing you do is either warp away if you are aligned or MJD away if you aren't. MJD + cloaked velocity bonus virtually guarantees that you will get away. It's one of the only cases where a ship mod is more useful than a ship bonus.

Essentially every time I suggest removing the agility and velocity bonuses people go "But those bonuses are so useful!" without really considering what else that bonus could be replaced with. Take a minute and think about other potentially useful bonuses that could fill that slot (tracking, MJD cycle time, etc.) I agree that they do add flavor so we could advocate for CCP to roll them into the base stats of the ship, like they did with HACs, and replace the bonus.


The widows ecm does not make a falcons any less useful because the falcon dies it far better and cheaper. Just because ships have the same bonuses does not mean they use them effectively in the same way.

Like a widow going full ecm is viable but you're asking to lose it if you are in a situation that really needed the ecm but a single multispec can be effective (no where near as effective as a dedicated falcon) or am ecm burst something out uses much better than a falcon

The speed bonus on the panther is used for far more than getting away

It's not that there are not better bonuses is that these are already extremely balanced ones.

Also the fact that you didn't know about assigning drones with the sin makes me wonder how well you know how to fly it and comment on the usefulness of its agi bonuse. (Spoke to my friend who is an avid sin pilot turns out that agi does come in handy during the fight on mwd fits)


EDIT:

The part about you not understanding how to best fly it was not a dig at you personally but rather to point out how most ppl that want to change the blops are normally the ones who don't know how best to use the current ones

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Vailen Sere
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2016-04-21 20:03:27 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I'm sure this will make a lot of Black Ops pilots happy even if they're among the least impeded jump capable ships as-is.

Not sure why so many want covops on a black ops ship. I mean it would be cool, but also potentially ridiculously broken. If you really must feel sneaky in a blops, why not ask for d-scan immunity?


This would make more sense..