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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

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Zenafar
#141 - 2016-04-20 06:27:59 UTC
Same story with dread

It was easy with solo dread in C5 week ago. But yesterday first attempt failed :)
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#142 - 2016-04-20 07:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
But I also wonder about the “target for capitals“ part. The drifter appears to be way too fast for it.

What I noticed was that it completely ignored my Loki and aggressed the Paladin 100% of the time. Maybe just coincidence... if not, that could be the way to go... put some Capital as a Tank to absorb the neuts and damage while tackling and webbing it with something small.

Seems easily abusable though... capital could be again just one and the real work is done by small cheap ships fit for max dps.

Edit: I suggest you give the drifter a set of secondary weapons and neuts which target smaller ships when available. The neut can be strong enough to suck a subcap dry but should have long cycle time, so the tackler could bounce back with vampires enough to not drop the points and webs on the drifter.

The secondary damage to subcaps should be strong enough to require a proper expensive fitting but survivable with strong logi / Faux support (but not local subcap tank because of the slow-cycling but very strong neut). Only as long as capitals draw the fire of the main weapon, of course.

This way we would need both capitals and subcaps to kill the drifter and they have to work together and are all threatened.

.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#143 - 2016-04-20 08:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks for your feedback so far folks!

We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely.
Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.

We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.


So, to summarise:

1. There is effectively going to be a "push button" to make the drifter spawn
2. The minuscule loot drop and high neuting of escalation NPC make it pointless to escalate
3. The high neuting power of the drifter makes passive fits the obvious option

I love how mysterious and channelling wormhole space is about to become Roll. Think i'll buy me a few Rattlesnakes... Cool game design guys! This is really inspired!
Anthar Thebess
#144 - 2016-04-20 08:33:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Updates based on feedback:

Thanks for your feedback so far folks!

We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely.
Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.

We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now.

This is very interesting change i know that i as for a lot.
But can we have few different boss NPC that can spawn?
If there will be always one type, people will find optimal way to kill it - like burners, and it will never be real challenge.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#145 - 2016-04-20 08:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Rek Seven wrote:


I love how mysterious and channelling wormhole space is about to become Roll. Think i'll buy me a few Rattlesnakes... Cool game design guys! This is really inspired!


No way a rattle survives the drifter in its current form.

edit: Also, even if a rattle were able to survive, the drifter has now so high ehp that it would take forever. I shot it with a 1200 dps marauder for about 15 minutes and just brought it to 20% shields. There was still full armor and structure. Killing it with subcaps is going to be totally inefficient. Only dreads will do it in any reasonable amount of time.

Before the last iteration there were at least two different drifters. I wonder if that is still so? Don't have time to make more tests atm.

.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#146 - 2016-04-20 10:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Terrorfrodo wrote:

No way a rattle survives the drifter in its current form.

edit: Also, even if a rattle were able to survive, the drifter has now so high ehp that it would take forever. I shot it with a 1200 dps marauder for about 15 minutes and just brought it to 20% shields. There was still full armor and structure. Killing it with subcaps is going to be totally inefficient. Only dreads will do it in any reasonable amount of time.


True but I'm predicting the majority of people will not bother shooting/spawning the drifter unless it is in their own home system... The more daring people may choose to bring a dread into their static but is it worth it for an extra 400 mil and increased time?

We are being pushed into running sites in our static, and for that, it will be more efficient to use a bunch of battleships to complete the basic waves and move on without worrying about the powerful drifter and escalation sleepers.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#147 - 2016-04-20 11:01:18 UTC
Maybe. That would be a situation basically unchanged from what we have now, right?

If there are no changes to capital/hole mass to allow more caps through, then any static-ratting fleet will be limited to a single cap anyway.

I wonder if there is a good setup to kill the drifter with a single capital. Like a dread that can survive one siege cycle and then be capped and repped up by a logi fleet before it enters the next cycle. Then we may see mixed ratting fleets with a dread plus many logistics and some tacklers, or a triage Faux with many dps subcaps. Sounds like a somewhat fun way to run sites, and a reasonably attractive target for a gank. Which may turn out to be a proper fight because the ratting fleet can be pretty good for a pvp situation too.

.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#148 - 2016-04-20 11:05:37 UTC
There's currently a bug that causes the Arithmos to sometimes accelerate to 200,000 m/s while fighting. We have found the cause and are getting it fixed right now.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#149 - 2016-04-20 11:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Terrorfrodo wrote:

If there are no changes to capital/hole mass to allow more caps through, then any static-ratting fleet will be limited to a single cap anyway.


Yeah, the Nag and phonex will probably be the best options but to be effective, they will require a support fleet including reps, web, points and cap transfers... Where as you could put together 5 rattlesnakes capable of doing the base waves in under 5 minutes and maybe killing the drifter in around 10 mins?

We will have to see how things shape out for PVE... As for PVP, spawning hostile drifter in someone system may create a new conflict driver.
Da Frenzy
SukaX Drive Yards
#150 - 2016-04-20 13:17:48 UTC
I ran a few sites last night to test out the new drifter. I used the double rr rattlesnake fit that has been circulating around reddit for a bit. I was doing about 2500 dps cause I was in a C5 mag. It took about 15 minutes to go through the shields, 25 min for the armor, and about 2 min for structure. The damage the drifter put out wasn't too bad, it was the neuting that really hurt. It'd take half my cap every 10 sec or so. At first I had to pay much more attention to my cap management, but about halfway through the drifters shields I figured out a routine that worked well but was very boring.

If the drifter is intended only for capitals, I think it is fine in its current itteration. But if subcaps are supposed to be able to do it I think it is very overpowered. You would need a significant fleet to defeat it, at which point you could just burn through normal anomalies instead. So the change to having it spawn when you shoot the structure is an important change. If anything, maybe reduce the ehp of the drifter if subcaps are intended to be able to kill it.
Anthar Thebess
#151 - 2016-04-20 13:31:51 UTC
Da Frenzy wrote:
I ran a few sites last night to test out the new drifter. I used the double rr rattlesnake fit that has been circulating around reddit for a bit. I was doing about 2500 dps cause I was in a C5 mag. It took about 15 minutes to go through the shields, 25 min for the armor, and about 2 min for structure. The damage the drifter put out wasn't too bad, it was the neuting that really hurt. It'd take half my cap every 10 sec or so. At first I had to pay much more attention to my cap management, but about halfway through the drifters shields I figured out a routine that worked well but was very boring.

If the drifter is intended only for capitals, I think it is fine in its current itteration. But if subcaps are supposed to be able to do it I think it is very overpowered. You would need a significant fleet to defeat it, at which point you could just burn through normal anomalies instead. So the change to having it spawn when you shoot the structure is an important change. If anything, maybe reduce the ehp of the drifter if subcaps are intended to be able to kill it.


If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy.
Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#152 - 2016-04-20 13:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
So you killed it with just two rattlesnakes? That surprises me. How much does one of those rattles cost?

What was the name of the drifter? To check if I got the same one.

And yes, I assume the drifter is NOT supposed to be killed (efficiently) with subcaps.

edit: And how did you tackle it? It should warp off if you didn't.

.

Anthar Thebess
#153 - 2016-04-20 13:41:36 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
So you killed it with just two rattlesnakes? That surprises me. How much does one of those rattles cost?

What was the name of the drifter? To check if I got the same one.

And yes, I assume the drifter is NOT supposed to be killed (efficiently) with subcaps.

edit: And how did you tackle it? It should warp off if you didn't.

He killed it in 45 minutes - using 2 rattles. Not effective.
Bring 3 or 4 rattlesnakes - quite easy using small number of alts.

Yes this drifter need serious rework.
Da Frenzy
SukaX Drive Yards
#154 - 2016-04-20 13:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Da Frenzy
Anthar Thebess wrote:


If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy.
Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.


They weren't passive. They were cap transfer rattles with pith x type xl shield boosts. I also had high grade crystals and shield links. Could tank it fine except for the neuts which required some pulsing of the booster instead of constantly running it. I did not notice the drifter repping while I was shooting it. Each rattle was about 800mil tq prices.

I also had 2 warp disruptors on each rattle so I could keep the drifter on field.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#155 - 2016-04-20 14:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I'm calling it now! Fozzie's solution to this,will be to nerf the Rattlesnake Blink

Ps. as you may know, you can make a 1000+ dps, 2500 ehp/s passive tanked rattlesnake (without links and implants) for around 950 mil. This is capable of soloing all C5 sites if you do it right.
Anthar Thebess
#156 - 2016-04-20 14:11:04 UTC
Da Frenzy wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:


If you kill using 2 passive rattlesnakes - then it need quite big rework. Time needed to kill it was only so long, as you where on edge of his 'local reps' add 1-2 rattlesnakes more and this will make killing this drifters very easy.
Why someone will bring capitals, when he can get 4 passive rattlesnakes.


They weren't passive. They were cap transfer rattles with pith x type xl shield boosts. I also had high grade crystals and shield links. Could tank it fine except for the neuts which required some pulsing of the booster instead of constantly running it. I did not notice the drifter repping while I was shooting it. Each rattle was about 800mil tq prices.

I also had 2 warp disruptors on each rattle so I could keep the drifter on field.


I think that goal of CCP was not replacing capital escalations with something that can be easily run in 2-4 sub capitals.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#157 - 2016-04-20 14:15:26 UTC
So our tester here fought the drifter with two ships that cost 800m apiece plus 2.2b worth of implants in each of the pods. That is 6b on field, enabling him to kill a 300m NPC in 45 minutes.

So where was the problem again? ^^

.

Anthar Thebess
#158 - 2016-04-20 14:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Terrorfrodo wrote:
So our tester here fought the drifter with two ships that cost 800m apiece plus 2.2b worth of implants in each of the pods. That is 6b on field, enabling him to kill a 300m NPC in 45 minutes.

So where was the problem again? ^^

The problem is that you can scale the cost, and reduce time needed bit by adding 2 next rattlesnakes.
Maybe we don't need 2 next rattlesnakes, but 2 pure dps battleships and 2 T2 logistic cruisers downgrading cost of the whole alt fleet to under 2bil mark.

Cap batteries provide resistance to neuts, guardians and basilisk could easily manage neuts especially when they get some cap from the battleships.

If people managed to find "solution" for the boss drifter, before it left SISI then it need a rework.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#159 - 2016-04-20 14:37:34 UTC
So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players, doesn't matter, that is 4 accounts that need to be paid or plexed. That is ****** income, worse than some other known methods that require only 1-2 chars. So surely not imbalanced.

And it would mean that you sit in the same site for over an hour. if you see new incoming hole after 35 minutes shooting the drifter you go away with nothing.

And people doing it with many alts will be especially vulnerable to ganks because they are very distracted.

.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#160 - 2016-04-20 15:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Terrorfrodo wrote:
So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players... That is ****** income, worse than some...


Compared to what? I'm not sure if you are saying the doctrine is bad or the isk payout isn't good enough.