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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

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Author
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#101 - 2016-04-08 09:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Regarding the drifter boss, this should be an npc that is vulnerable to neuts. If the super weapon required capacitor, we would have some protection against in by using capacitor warfare.

We could use bhaalgorns to neut the drifters and this coupled with the need to point the drifter, would make the ideal PVE fleet also a very capable PVP fleet.
Jr Citcit Tso
Sand Castle
#102 - 2016-04-08 23:46:29 UTC
Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.

If this is implemented, "Elite PVE" is dead. To nurf any gameplay 500% is to tell it's players go away!
Did you mean CCP would drop the loot per site by 50M? That would be acceptable.

With this change CCP is also killing the T3 programs, 50M in sleeper loot is nothing and prices will skyrocket.

And isn't the loot tied to Citadel component manufacture also...


Ben Ishikela
#103 - 2016-04-09 09:18:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Quote:
If there will be more reasons to do more in the static would increasing the wh mass be possible? To allow more battleships through to help run sites? To allow for 2 capitals to go there and back?

I'm definitely open to making tweaks to high-class WH connection mass if the community likes the idea. I encourage people to contribute to Corbexx's thread here where he asks that very question. I can go either way with this topic, depending on what the consensus in the WH community ends up being.
.[/quote]

What about the opposite of an higgs anchor. This would be great for getting Battleshipsfor roaming through WH.
The Rig could nerf those combat capabilities enough. But leave the PVE side of them intact. Therefor better farming of statics possible. Therefor more interception opportunities. Twisted

spontanous example:
The "Higgs Flywheel"
mass -50%. inertia x2.
totalhitpoints -50%. (shield AND armor)

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

BambarbiyaKirgudu
Real Pilots Group
#104 - 2016-04-10 20:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: BambarbiyaKirgudu
All these useless changes(drifters, decrease WH, citadels, delete Pos, cutting dreads, carriers) will lead many of the players exit from the game and online fall! All the more so what in the end of the year comes Starcitizen! You are not doing anything new just change the old in the bad side!
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#105 - 2016-04-10 20:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
I just tested doing C5 Core Garrisons with two Paladins. At the end of the site suddenly this Artemis Tyrannos shows up... I had forgotten about it :D

Anyway, the drifter seemed quite passive. For a minute or so it neither warped off nor attacked. I guess he had no reason to warp off because he didn't feel threatened. I warped off to not get my testing setup blown to bits after one site.

Later I started another site. At the end of one wave the drifter from the previous site showed up. At first it seemed passive again but then it started orbiting me at insanely high speeds (950 m/s). And it seemed to have a really small sig too, my battleship guns missed it all the time. I guess this cannot be the final state, no capital would have any chance to hit the drifter as it is now. Even my light drones occasionally missed it...

I guess I could have killed it, it didnt appear to self-repair. But it was such a slow grind that I gave up and just killed the regular sleepers. After I finished the site... no second drifter appeared. Probably also not how it will be on TQ.

After a while I noticed the drifter did actually attack. One attack came from "drifter response battleship" and did 4k volleys, hard hits but easy enough to repair with no other sleepers present.

But there was another attack from 'Artemis Tyrannos' and this one without exception missed me completely although my Paladins obviously were stationary. I assume this is the anti-capital weapon. If it stays as it is now, it appears it cannot hit subcaps at all.

Of course this is just Sisi so does not have to mean anything. Still I would expect the drifter to be at least somewhat close to how it's going to be on TQ. But the current behavior where not even battleship guns can hit it properly does not make much sense, so maybe not...

.

Helena Heffalump
#106 - 2016-04-10 21:02:22 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I just tested doing C5 Core Garrisons with two Paladins. At the end of the site suddenly this Apollo Tyrannos shows up... I had forgotten about it :D

Anyway, the drifter seemed quite passive. For a minute or so it neither warped off nor attacked. I guess he had no reason to warp off because he didn't feel threatened. I warped off to not get my testing setup blown to bits after one site.

Later I started another site. At the end of one wave the drifter from the previous site showed up. At first it seemed passive again but then it started orbiting me at insanely high speeds (950 m/s). And it seemed to have a really small sig too, my battleship guns missed it all the time. I guess this cannot be the final state, no capital would have any chance to hit the drifter as it is now. Even my light drones occasionally missed it...

I guess I could have killed it, it didnt appear to self-repair. But it was such a slow grind that I gave up and just killed the regular sleepers. After I finished the site... no second drifter appeared. Probably also not how it will be on TQ.

After a while I noticed the drifter did actually attack. One attack came from "drifter response battleship" and did 4k volleys, hard hits but easy enough to repair with no other sleepers present.

But there was another attack from 'Apollo Tyrannos' and this one without exception missed me completely although my Paladins obviously were stationary. I assume this is the anti-capital weapon. If it stays as it is now, it appears it cannot hit subcaps at all.

Of course this is just Sisi so does not have to mean anything. Still I would expect the drifter to be at least somewhat close to how it's going to be on TQ. But the current behavior where not even battleship guns can hit it properly does not make much sense, so maybe not...



is the doomsday working for the drifter atm?
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#107 - 2016-04-10 21:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
As I said, he had one weapon that always missed me, I'm guessing that was his doomsday.

Currently the drifter is not probable and not on dscan.

edit: There are at least two different drifters at the moment, Apollo Tyrannos and Artemis Tyrannos. Although the names are not final, I guess it's a sign that we will actually get more than one kind of drifter.

Artemis Tyrannos was the one I described. Apollo is totally passive currently, just orbits but doesn't shoot or even target. When killed, he drops exactly 300m ISK in blue loot.

.

Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards
#108 - 2016-04-11 07:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Troubled Basterd
Hi,

I like how the new escalation will make it harder and challenging. But the isk nerf and the demand for more ships decrease the profit/risk way to much. You could say you only need 3 caps now. but with only 3 it's going to take ages. 2 fax 1 carrier 3 dreads (2 cap guns 1 set of sub caps). Were we usually have 12 bill worth of ships its going to way past 20 bill. All the more reason to just stay in red giants and use you know wat.

More risk should mean more reward, just making the site's easy and fast to run does not count, so double the spawns, 2 for each capital types. All the escalation ppl already have 2 carriers. Make them useful.

Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids
12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit

Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier.
22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2)

It should be:
22 bill fleet = 1400 mill in 15/20 minutes, keeping the risk/profit time the same.

Then share it with 2 more pilots, or multibox/buy more plex.

The changes on the capitals guns make are going make pos/citadel defense way harder, especially for the smaller wh groups. Anny logie heavy group can take them down now. the only real use for carrier high slots is going to be capital neuts. I dont like using drones like ammo (launch them and by the time you see them melting the first few are already dead. The cap neuts will make good use aganst enemy caps (if the bring one), counterneuting bhaal's might even work, 5 neuts will hit even with the sig penalty. Just make it a heavy tackle utility ship, MWD, web and 3 point scram...

A Naglfar pilot shouts 2,5 meter rounds of hell at a 1000 meter long Bhaalgorn webs to stationary **** by a vindy or a pos web and i cant hit it for full damage? That's just pathetic! But the high angle one will alpha a webbed dictor that he can lock in 20 seconds (?!).

Also I don't see this getting more new players. It will just make ppl Quit eve. Same as the absurd plex prices.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#109 - 2016-04-12 00:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Troubled Basterd wrote:
Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids
12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit

Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier.
22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2)

on what basis are you randomly upping the number of caps used???
new minimum fleet will be 1 dread, 1 carrier, 1 fax. can add in the 4th cap to get a second dread in there for fire power i guess.
the only reason you use a 2nd carrier now is to trigger its wave, it really should just be warping in and out immediately.
id also love to know why 6 caps cost 22 bil if 4 caps previously cost 12 bil. that maths seems loose to say the least.

pretty sure your times are also off. a full site takes ~12min now and will take a fair bit longer than that post change.

at the end of the day, youre completely missing the point anyway: yes, this is a nerf. yes, it is meant to be a nerf. no, the income post change is not meant to be the same as before the change. deal with it.

PS: im not even going to ask why youre using nids for pve....

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Luft Reich
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#110 - 2016-04-12 04:16:26 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Troubled Basterd wrote:
Current fleet: 2 moros 2 nids
12 bill fleet = 750 mill in 15/20 minutes on grit

Future fleet: 3 dreads, 2 fax and one utility carrier.
22 bill fleet = 600? mill in 15 minutes (Siege/triage cycle time times 3. I dont think it can we done in 2)

on what basis are you randomly upping the number of caps used???
new minimum fleet will be 1 dread, 1 carrier, 1 fax. can add in the 4th cap to get a second dread in there for fire power i guess.
the only reason you use a 2nd carrier now is to trigger its wave, it really should just be warping in and out immediately.
id also love to know why 6 caps cost 22 bil if 4 caps previously cost 12 bil. that maths seems loose to say the least.

pretty sure your times are also off. a full site takes ~12min now and will take a fair bit longer than that post change.

at the end of the day, youre completely missing the point anyway: yes, this is a nerf. yes, it is meant to be a nerf. no, the income post change is not meant to be the same as before the change. deal with it.

PS: im not even going to ask why youre using nids for pve....


LOOOOOOOOOOOW CLAAAASSS

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post

Lyra Jedran
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#111 - 2016-04-12 04:50:51 UTC
So has anyone actually tried killing the new drifter BS with subcaps?
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#112 - 2016-04-12 05:14:50 UTC
Luft Reich wrote:
LOOOOOOOOOOOW CLAAAASSS

um.... congrats on the basic corp name reading skills?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#113 - 2016-04-12 09:25:26 UTC
Lyra Jedran wrote:
So has anyone actually tried killing the new drifter BS with subcaps?

Yes, I killed one. It took forever to kill but was easy... because it didnt shoot back ;)

So the question is, when can we expect a version of the drifter on Sisi that resembles the final form? What's there now can definitely not be even close to what we'll get on TQ.

Right now also the drifter does not actually come to the help of his comrades. I was at first confused because the drifter spawns not at the end of the site, but in the middle of the second reinforcement wave. I didnt notice this before because the drifter does not move or attack until it is aggressed. This also obviously is not how it's going to be on TQ.

.

Troubled Basterd
Island Life Capitalist Bastards
#114 - 2016-04-12 18:27:50 UTC
Sorry for the lack of detail. But i didnt draw random numbers.
Current site running fleet:

Naglfar: hull+fit+rigs (ex implants) 4 bill
Moros: hull+fit+rigs (ex implants) 4 bill
2 Nidhougers: hull+fit+rigs 2 bill each

Total 12 bill (give or take a couple of 100 mill)

For the future fleet i suggested more dreads and 2 Faxes. Spider tanking Faxes works a lot better then self rep in my opinion. Lets say one off the big wh group rolls in to your wh wile running sites and they see 2 high angle dreads doing -4000 dps each. Anny fox can tank this. So no reason not to drop one on them with dps/neut support fleet.

Keeping in mind 4 bill for a dread and 2 bill for a carrier and 2/3 bill for a fax. 3*4+3*2=22 bill.

Sites pre nerf take 15 minutes, if it takes longer you're doing it wrong.... The first dread that warps in uses 3 siege cycles and it still has to wait at the end.

TB o/

Ps; Nids becaus Winmatar... we were new to capitals and nid stats and looks looked good :-)





Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#115 - 2016-04-12 23:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Troubled Basterd wrote:
3*4+3*2=22 bill.

oh I see. 4+4+4+2+2+2 = 22 in your world. my mistake, must be a relativity thing...

even assuming that the cost of your caps it remotely relevant to anything CCP do, (spoiler alert: it's not), you're still comparing fully double the required number of cap post change to the bare minimum pre change.
you should be comparing your post change numbers to using 8 caps pre change if that's what you want to do.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#116 - 2016-04-15 09:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I appreciate that the developers are busy with the Citadel but the feedback to CCP Fozzie's proposed change have been mostly negative and there is no indication that our concerns are being listened to...

Can we get some comments from CCP or at least the CSM to help move this discussion and confirm that there will be some significant changes to the original proposal?

In my opinion, the main concern is how the massive nerf to income results in an unbalance of risk Vs. reward and as a result, activity in wormhole space will decline.
Anthar Thebess
#117 - 2016-04-15 09:59:18 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I appreciate that the developers are busy with the Citadel but the feedback to CCP Fozzie's proposed change have been mostly negative and there is no indication that our concerns are being listened to...

Can we get some comments from CCP or at least the CSM to help move this discussion and confirm that there will be some significant changes to the original proposal?

In my opinion, the main concern is how the massive nerf to income results in an unbalance of risk Vs. reward and as a result, activity in wormhole space will decline.


CCP is trying to fix this :
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The original sleeper capital escalation mechanic introduced way back in Apocrypha was (like many of the mechanics that ended up becoming staples of wormhole space) a bit of an accident. The escalation spawns were intended to provide extra challenge to prevent the sites from being too easy when farmed with capitals, but in practice they ended up becoming the major moneymaking source in the sites. There are several issues with the meta that emerged from the original escalation content, including the very unintuitive mechanics that encourage people to not complete the site so they can farm it repeatedly across downtimes.
.

Current mechanic is simply broken, and was introduced to reduce the usage of the capitals, not increase it.
For me those are good changes.
People who desire to live in an unknown space without a local - will still do it.
Some farming alts will move simply somewhere else.

Eve needs to be different ( for me still there is a lot of potential to make things more interesting ) and unknown space should be unknown not farmville.


Catalytic morphisis
Among Shadows
Shadows of Eden
#118 - 2016-04-15 10:12:40 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
I just realized: Does the drifter have to have a single-target-dd? Could he maybe have one of the new ones with AOE ?

There is nothing new about AoE DD's. They were the Only type of DD there was until they got changed to Targetted DD's

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Marox Calendale
Voices of War - Research and Production
Evictus.
#119 - 2016-04-15 10:30:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do hope to eventually put a smaller version of this Drifter "boss" into some lower class wormholes as well, especially C4s.

Low class wormholes are not high sec!

We already have lower income, why canĀ“t we get the same interesting content? Just spawn those new "low class Drifter bosses" randomly in the systems and everything would be fine. 35m each and it would be like a normal C2 Combat Site, but harder to do hopefully.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#120 - 2016-04-15 11:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Current mechanic is simply broken, and was introduced to reduce the usage of the capitals, not increase it.
For me those are good changes.
People who desire to live in an unknown space without a local - will still do it.
Some farming alts will move simply somewhere else.

Eve needs to be different ( for me still there is a lot of potential to make things more interesting ) and unknown space should be unknown not farmville.


That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space. Fozzie said him self that good income and capital escalations has become a staple of wormhole space... you can't simply take that away and expect positive things to happen.

There are already next to no conflict drivers in wormhole space other than the desire to hunt and kill and this change encourage people to stop using the big juicy targets that people love to hunt and kill. Straight