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Recurring Opportunities coming soon

First post
Author
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#941 - 2016-04-11 08:40:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Forcing people to log in to shoot a rat will do nothing to boost the number of people logged in as they will be logged back off within 5 min.

Like I said, once you sucessfully nudge someone to log in, there is always a chance that they will do more than just shoot this one rat. Maybe I planned to just kill a rat and then log off, but then I get involved in a discussion in corp, or I see someone ratting and decide to attack them, or I get attacked myself...

This will not make inactive players active, but it can make active players be active more regularly.

.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#942 - 2016-04-11 08:44:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
With EVE getting older and older and the distance between eager, hyper-active newbies and the average veteran player growing, I think it makes sense to start rewarding activity in this way, even if it obviously is a step closer to WoW-like grinding games.

However, maybe it would be better to not give the reward for just any NPC... as proposed, it will be enough to warp into a hisec belt and shoot a 10k rat, which takes 2 minutes and poses zero risk. How about the reward is only triggered if the NPC was killed in low or null sec? Or only half the reward for hisec. This way new players are encouraged to leave hisec earlier and players in general have to take a minimum of risk for the reward.


but that is still forcing ppl into one type of game play its not getting new players sp that is the problem. its telling players how to play that is the problem

Maybe, but killing a single NPC is generic enough to accomodate most playstyles.

-You want to mine? There are rats in belts, just kill one with your drones.
-Missions, anomalies, belt ratting? Well, you kill rats anyway.
-PvP? No big deal to find some rat while you're hunting to 'prove' your activity and get the reward.
-Market? Or manufacturing/industry? Ok, you're out of luck :p But most likely you sit in Jita/hisec and it takes 2 minutes to undock, kill some weak rat in a belt and then go back to business.

Of course it will be easy to get the reward without actually doing anything meaningful. But I guess the idea is that if you already baited a player into logging in and shoot a rat, there is always a chance that he will stay a little longer and do something meaningful, providing content for everyone. Thinking about myself this may well work, many days I kinda plan to play EVE but I'm too lazy to actually log in... but if I'm baited by a corp ping or now this new feature, there is a good chance I will stay and play for several hours.


The best way to get people playing is to have content. The current war has done more to boost numbers logging in than anything else. Forcing people to log in to shoot a rat will do nothing to boost the number of people logged in as they will be logged back off within 5 min.
True as that may be.

Think of what Eve would be like if CCP found a way to appeal to the general and largest game playing market, the 14 to 20 year old's.
Opportunities and the such (dailies) are not much more than marketing tools used by companies to attract not only existing players to log in but new players to join in.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#943 - 2016-04-11 08:48:03 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
With EVE getting older and older and the distance between eager, hyper-active newbies and the average veteran player growing, I think it makes sense to start rewarding activity in this way, even if it obviously is a step closer to WoW-like grinding games.

However, maybe it would be better to not give the reward for just any NPC... as proposed, it will be enough to warp into a hisec belt and shoot a 10k rat, which takes 2 minutes and poses zero risk. How about the reward is only triggered if the NPC was killed in low or null sec? Or only half the reward for hisec. This way new players are encouraged to leave hisec earlier and players in general have to take a minimum of risk for the reward.


but that is still forcing ppl into one type of game play its not getting new players sp that is the problem. its telling players how to play that is the problem

Maybe, but killing a single NPC is generic enough to accomodate most playstyles.

-You want to mine? There are rats in belts, just kill one with your drones.
-Missions, anomalies, belt ratting? Well, you kill rats anyway.
-PvP? No big deal to find some rat while you're hunting to 'prove' your activity and get the reward.
-Market? Or manufacturing/industry? Ok, you're out of luck :p But most likely you sit in Jita/hisec and it takes 2 minutes to undock, kill some weak rat in a belt and then go back to business.

Of course it will be easy to get the reward without actually doing anything meaningful. But I guess the idea is that if you already baited a player into logging in and shoot a rat, there is always a chance that he will stay a little longer and do something meaningful, providing content for everyone. Thinking about myself this may well work, many days I kinda plan to play EVE but I'm too lazy to actually log in... but if I'm baited by a corp ping or now this new feature, there is a good chance I will stay and play for several hours.


The best way to get people playing is to have content. The current war has done more to boost numbers logging in than anything else. Forcing people to log in to shoot a rat will do nothing to boost the number of people logged in as they will be logged back off within 5 min.
True as that may be.

Think of what Eve would be like if CCP found a way to appeal to the general and largest game playing market, the 14 to 20 year old's.
Opportunities and the such (dailies) are not much more than marketing tools used by companies to attract not only existing players to log in but new players to join in.


the best way to appeal to 14 year olds is make it f2p, tbh im not really a fan of screaming 14 year olds in my game so please dont give them that idea

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Luscius Uta
#944 - 2016-04-11 08:52:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
If this happened few years ago, I would be excited about it. But nowadays I rarely shoot NPCs and most of my income comes from station trading and T2 manufacturing on my alt. I don't mind the game giving bonus SP to active players, but I mind when a supposedly sandbox game tells them what they should do to receive those SP. Either make sure that different ingame activities are rewarded or don't introduce this at all.


so your okay with ccp telling people how to play and how often just so long as it fits what you do. as has been stated b4 just because you are not logged in does not mean you are not actively playing the game



No I'm not, how did you come to that conclusion? I think that logging once per day to kill a single NPC is a grinding chore and just because I'm okay with CCP rewarding people who log in everyday doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer if this system was done in a way that doesn't reward menial tasks.
And people who are not logged on play the game? LOL - maybe in few rare cases, like coalition leaders. It's the number of logged players that keeps the game alive, not the number of someone's forum posts. Just like people who mererly play skill queue online don't contribute anything to the game.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#945 - 2016-04-11 09:20:03 UTC
It is an absolutely good idea to give people a reason to login and to undock.
The common "daily quest" pattern is something that has been heavily used throughout gaming industry to achieve this.
Some games even reward just logging in and clicking "get bacon" where "bacon" gets bigger when logging in for multiple consecutive days.

There ARE similar elements in EVE and interestingly, CCP has done quite a bit in the past to REMOVE them. The 24-hour-limit to the skill queue is a prominent example.
Another one (bit different) are said opportunities which replaced the old tutorials. With the goal to replace mandatory rituals (do the tutorials to get their rewards) with creativity and freedom of choice (opportunities are an offer, but completely optional)

I personally dislike the idea of daily quests, because they incentivize performing the same repetitive pattern, especially if you would normally not follow that pattern.

But take for example Planetary Interaction.
This is an activity that - by innate design - encourages you to log in, undock and do something in space on a regular basis. You can freely choose the schedule, but your efficiency improves significantly if you log in more frequently, best on a daily basis.

Another example:
Expeditions. By raiding certain sites, you get a chance to create a timed opportunity to do something else (you maybe would not normally do as they tend to lead you into hostile territory) for extra rewards.

Conclusion:

1. I recognize that it is good for the overall health of the game if players show activity. Incentivizing activity is a good thing, could also keep the game interesting for the individual player.

2. I am against plain/dumb daily quests as they incentivize stupid repetitive pattern and decrease my "value" screen time.

3. Activities that INHERENTLY create the desire to login again and show activity are the way to go. Example: PI. Expeditions.

Suggestion:

Revamp / expansion on expeditions. Expeditions could have a different time window that e.g. aims for the next day.
Imagine belt NPCs / hacking containers spawning additional expeditions ("opportunities").
These could e.g. be completed only 12-36 hours later for a good reward, 36-60 hours later for a somewhat worse (but still desireable) extra reward or the like if you continue with the same activity.
So by doing the stuff you like, you get incentivized to do more of that stuff tomorrow or the day after.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#946 - 2016-04-11 09:51:29 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
[quote=Sgt Ocker]

the best way to appeal to 14 year olds is make it f2p, tbh im not really a fan of screaming 14 year olds in my game so please dont give them that idea
I'm not either but that doesn't mean CCP aren't looking at a wider audience for Eve and that either way includes a younger crowd than many of us are accustomed to.
Reduce subscription costs a bit (or have a way to play for free using in game currency) add free content (dailies) and suddenly your market is open to a much wider and different audience.
One daily "opportunity" isn't likely to have much impact but once you have a number of "freebies" each day - Word spreads

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Daemon Jax
The Madness Network
#947 - 2016-04-11 10:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemon Jax
Everything about this is a bad idea.

If you want these opportunities to help new players, then have it scale similar to injectors, except after 5mil sp it just stops altogether.

And for killing an NPC rat? That's just terrible any way you look at it. Tie it to newbie opportunity system instead, or make opportunities some kind of group pve event (pvpers can go there for targets if the event is in low/null, or maybe you can choose sides when you get there, kinda like red vs blue) that randomly spawns X events somewhere within Y hours... but make it somewhat interesting with varied objectives.

Not just kill 1 rat... that's not even a good placeholder for anywhere except the test server.
Tomika
Doomheim
#948 - 2016-04-11 10:42:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so your okay with ccp telling people how to play


They are not telling you how to play. You are just being a drama queen.
Rain6639
Team Evil
#949 - 2016-04-11 10:51:27 UTC
I just want to add that playing is a punishment for playing thanks
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#950 - 2016-04-11 11:16:19 UTC
Daemon Jax wrote:
Everything about this is a bad idea.

If you want these opportunities to help new players, then have it scale similar to injectors, except after 5mil sp it just stops altogether.

And for killing an NPC rat? That's just terrible any way you look at it. Tie it to newbie opportunity system instead, or make opportunities some kind of group pve event (pvpers can go there for targets if the event is in low/null, or maybe you can choose sides when you get there, kinda like red vs blue) that randomly spawns X events somewhere within Y hours... but make it somewhat interesting with varied objectives.

Not just kill 1 rat... that's not even a good placeholder for anywhere except the test server.

It is the perfect "place holder" for future plans - You really don't think it will stop with just ONE "daily" do you?

This is just a beginning - Expect more..........and more......and more, increasing in difficulty and reward, until dailies become a part of Eve life.

Any pvp event would be biased, 70% of paying Eve customers don't pvp, offering rewards only to a minority (pvp'rs) would be bad for business and therefore never be a Daily. Unless CCP decide to create arenas, like so many games before them to accommodate the pvp whims of a few.

Just imagine the outcry from miners if CCP offered X amount of SP for every one that got killed. As much fun as it could be, I don't think CCP would want that sort of blowback. Add to that the toxic way in which PVP is carried out in Eve, it could never be done in a balanced way.
Honestly I think there would be very few in Eve who could do pvp dailies as most pvp is fleet or at best small gang and the amount of ways it could be gamed is endless.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#951 - 2016-04-11 11:20:52 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
With EVE getting older and older and the distance between eager, hyper-active newbies and the average veteran player growing.

I really don't see what this part has to do with the rest of your post. If you mean that the skill-gap is a problem, the system with diminishing returns and finite skill ceilings pretty much has you covered there.
Mayharm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#952 - 2016-04-11 11:31:57 UTC
IN A PLAYER DRIVEN FUTURE

[11:15]

You are the CEO of "Industry Corp 27". The servers are back on-line and you login to see how you can expand your empire and catch up with the Henry Fords and Howard Hughes of New Eden. So first stop, the CEO/director version of the corp dailies interface.

You can see in the Contracts section that most of the thorax hulls you need for next week's delivery to the e-uni have been completed via players doing the contract dailies, but you need more so you set up some additional ones for today.


[11:25]

Going back to the main screen you notice that the incursion section has become available, uh-oh... yup, there's an incursion spawned in your constellation. ****! The last time this happened none of your employees could get ANY mining done cause of those damn sansha rats. Well *this* time you can do something about it.

You open the incursion section and check he details, it costs 80M isk and 80 daily license points. Well worth it when the mining churns through 2.7B isk worth of asteroids in a normal week. And with 967 players in your corp, industrialists or not, surely some of them can figure out how to kill the mom? Well let's find out....

[11:26]

Before you close the interface you notice some complaints in the corp chat about the price of veldspar being high. You check the market, *sigh* yes some group is trying to corner the veldspar market again. But wait! You have an idea... you open the market section of the dailies interface and create 5 dailies for your members to sell 100M veldspar at a reasonable price. Sure, this won't stop the market manipulation, they'll just buy the cheaper ore and resell it for more. BUT it does mean when they are finished the average price in the region wont actually rise too badly and prices will go back to normal faster. In the longer term that'll be worth way more than 0.5 billion veldsar and hopefully your members are willing to sacrifice for the cause.

[11:30]

Finally done with your CEO chores, you undock your hulk, it's going to be a beautiful day of blowing up rocks... maybe you'll find the corpse of corp-mate caught mining afk so you can complete your corps frozen corpse daily?
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#953 - 2016-04-11 11:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

Why so lazy?
Lots of feedback about the feature having such a minimalist implementation. First, let me clear up some confusion by saying that this feature has no relationship with the 'Tribute' system that was described last year at EVE Vegas. That feature has actually gone down a path more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity and so the daily part was broken off and given to our team separately. With that in mind, we are trying to find the right mix of activity and accessibility. We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this. That said, we've also deliberately tried to keep it simple so that we can deploy fast and adjust based on how it gets used. We are absolutely open to expanding the list of activities in the future and imagined that as one of the most likely first iterations. Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

New players
Seeing a lot of talk about this feature in the context of new players and I can just say that this is not a new player targeted feature. We hope it's good for new players as well but for the feature to be successful it needs to be relevant to everyone.

Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.

@ccp_rise

Pleasure Hub Node-514
Pleasure Hub Hotline
#954 - 2016-04-11 11:43:44 UTC
^ Good stuff CCP Rise.

'One night hauler' The tell all story of a pleasure bot in Jita 4-4

William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#955 - 2016-04-11 11:48:20 UTC
I like idea of daily quests overall because its working in most other mmo games. But eve is a lot slower game than others, so i'd like to see weekly quest instead of dayily.
Huge questin is what kind of reward it should provide, skillpoints looks fine, but only while this reward SP for quest is less important, than standart learning.

Mainly i want to talk about type of that regular quest, what kind of activity they should provoke. I like idea of special quest, that provoke people for any activity (especially pvp activity) in dangeroues zones - low-sec, null-sec and wormholes. Something like
1) Kill one npc in any low, null or wh system.
2) Visit region (random region every week for every player from low or null regions).
3) Activate agressive module on someone (can be used only once per character).

What do you gyus think about it?

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.

Oxide Ammar
#956 - 2016-04-11 11:48:29 UTC
Thx CCP, I'm looking forward for this daily opportunity as for the rest of salty veterans better luck next time launching crusade against upcoming features Lol

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#957 - 2016-04-11 11:53:18 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Thx CCP, I'm looking forward for this daily opportunity as for the rest of salty veterans better luck next time launching crusade against upcoming features Lol


sorry for not jumping on the "we love you ccp" band wagon Roll

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#958 - 2016-04-11 11:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
CCP Rise wrote:
stuff


...I didn't see the word "orthodoxy"... :(

Jokes aside, can we at least get a change so that the skillpoints are more restricted? Like, maybe just a little thing like "only on active training queues", or "any of the three characters on that account can complete it"?
Inomares
Tax Evasion Corporation 3
I too am gay
#959 - 2016-04-11 12:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Inomares
Anything I feel obliged to do on a daily basis whether I feel like doing it or not, I will end up hating. I quit WoW for this exact same reason. I didn't need the gold I got from logging in and updating my Garrison for 5 minutes/day, but the nagging feeling that I was missing out if I didn't was always there. In the end, it nagged me to the point where I quit the game over it. Don't start making me hate eve as well, please. The skill queue change is one of the best changes I've seen since I came back to the game.
Kieron VonDeux
#960 - 2016-04-11 12:01:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Wow CCP


It can be a slippery slope and you have to admit CCP is not always totally open in regard to really why some changes are being made. At least it can seem that way.

Many changes to this game you can anticipate but many do come out of left field. Some times those changes that come out of left field really leave many players wondering why, and where this made lead us in the future.

Many previous MMOs were totally destroyed by wild changes out of left field that players didn't really anticipate and game design was too stubborn to admit those mistakes before it was too late.

I think many would wish that the more "left field" like changes were not announced two weeks before release and were given more time to get feedback from the player base.

It really does seem that CCP is rushing things on some of these left field changes to shove them down the player base's throat before it is well thought out. Building a consensus in game design and running it by CSM does not mean the player base as a whole will readily accept such changes.