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[Citadels] Titans

First post
Author
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#21 - 2016-04-04 15:59:48 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Several people have complained about the Ragnorak's bonus. With the changes to XL weapon signature resolution, is this a more powerful bonus than it currently appears?


No. You can still take a Loki or Sleipnir/Claymore and give a very similar bonus.
However, there are no links in game that give raw hp like Erebus / Leviathan do, only the Mindlink Imps have the same type of bonus but not even half as strong.
There's also the Avatar's bonus, which doesn't even have something that competes for the same bonus.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#22 - 2016-04-04 17:21:11 UTC
Seems like the Levi is getting a raw deal on DPS...

Titan Level 1
Levi (kin only) --- +50% damage, +15% ROF, +59% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +40% damage, +15% ROF, +47% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +180% damage, +5% ROF, +189% DPS overall
Avatar --- +180% damage, +0% ROF, +180% DPS overall

Titan Level 2
Levi (kin only) --- +100% damage, +30% ROF, +143% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +80% damage, +30% ROF, +114% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +360% damage, +10% ROF, +400% DPS overall
Avatar --- +360% damage, -0% ROF, +360% DPS overall

Titan Level 3
Levi (kin only) --- +150% damage, +45% ROF, +273% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +120% damage, +45% ROF, +218% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +540% damage, +15% ROF, +635% DPS overall
Avatar --- +540% damage, +0% ROF, +540% DPS overall

Titan Level 4
Levi (kin only)--- +200% damage, +60% ROF, +500% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +160% damage, +60% ROF, +400% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +720% damage, +20% ROF, +900% DPS overall
Avatar --- +720% damage, +0% ROF, +720% DPS overall

Titan Level 5
Levi (kin only)--- +250% damage, +75% ROF, +1,000% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +200% damage, +75% ROF, +800% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +900% damage, +25% ROF, +1,200% DPS overall
Avatar --- +900% damage, +0% ROF, +900% DPS overall


Levi DPS bonus becomes comparable to the other titans once you get to LVL 5, but before that it isn't even close. Seems like this could be better optimised.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#23 - 2016-04-04 17:30:34 UTC
Servanda wrote:

While you are changing Titans could you think about giving a new Fleetbonus to the rag it is only 3% stronger than a link on a command ship.

All the other titans provide significant advantages but that Rag bonus is never used as the small bonus to Sig is always outclased by the ability of the command ships to field way Stronger aditional Links

On a similar note, thoughts on "Cap Warfare Resistance" instead of "Cap Recharge Rate" for the Avatar?

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2016-04-04 17:50:13 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Several people have complained about the Ragnorak's bonus. With the changes to XL weapon signature resolution, is this a more powerful bonus than it currently appears?


No. You can still take a Loki or Sleipnir/Claymore and give a very similar bonus.
However, there are no links in game that give raw hp like Erebus / Leviathan do, only the Mindlink Imps have the same type of bonus but not even half as strong.
There's also the Avatar's bonus, which doesn't even have something that competes for the same bonus.


Forgive me if I am ignorant of how boosting works, but apart from opportunity cost, what stops you from using a Ragnorak and a Claymore at the same time? Both bonuses still apply, right? Presumably with stacking penalties? I've never had to consider that question because I have an Avatar, which has that unique bonus. And it's been years since I logged in my Avatar to use it as a booster (for anything other than a move op).

This meta doesn't need more speed boosts, however rarely someone might use the Ragnorak for that in this era where you have to be outside the POS shields to boost.

As someone else pointed out above, this is all basically moot pending the removal of OGB.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2016-04-04 17:52:01 UTC
I really do have to question the logic of making the ships with more tank slots also have higher base HP. Obviously the titans are in a better spot in this regard than supercarriers because of the lack of the resist bonus that the wyvern and aeon have, but it still doesnt make sense to me for amarr/caldari ships to have such a twofold advantage in natural tanking ability.


I understand the desire to keep differentiation between the races but it seems to me that there would be a better balance if the gal/min capitals had higher base hitpoints than their counterparts. Without that extra tank slot there still would be no way for them to match the outright tank of the amarr/caldari capitals but it would serve to bridge the EHP gap somewhat. I'm sure you've seen the numbers from the supercarrier thread but it is plainly ridiculous that aeons have nearly double the EHP and resists of a nyx.

Obviously with the loss of the tanking slot the gallente and minmatar capitals also gain a utility mid/low, but I'd argue that said slot is far less valuable than when the same treatment is given to subcaps. Firstly, the number of slots is high enough that the gain of a utility mid is only going to be a marginal gain. Going from 5 mids to 6 is nice but it's not going to really affect the capabilities of the ship the way that going from 2 mids to 3 mids would. Additionally and perhaps more importantly, supercaps generally aren't responsible for providing their own utility such as EW with their spare slots. Therefore, there's a quite limited amount of items to fit in these spare slots, and the difference between 5 and 6 isn't going to make a real meaningful difference once stacking penalties start applying. About the only advantage the erebus and rag have is marginally better application against subcaps with an extra TP/TC/TE than their peers.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#26 - 2016-04-04 17:56:45 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Servanda wrote:

While you are changing Titans could you think about giving a new Fleetbonus to the rag it is only 3% stronger than a link on a command ship.

All the other titans provide significant advantages but that Rag bonus is never used as the small bonus to Sig is always outclased by the ability of the command ships to field way Stronger aditional Links

On a similar note, thoughts on "Cap Warfare Resistance" instead of "Cap Recharge Rate" for the Avatar?


Cap recharge rate is pretty awesome in the right situation. I would rather have that than cap warfare resistance.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#27 - 2016-04-04 19:08:53 UTC
Destoya wrote:
I really do have to question the logic of making the ships with more tank slots also have higher base HP. Obviously the titans are in a better spot in this regard than supercarriers because of the lack of the resist bonus that the wyvern and aeon have, but it still doesnt make sense to me for amarr/caldari ships to have such a twofold advantage in natural tanking ability.


I understand the desire to keep differentiation between the races but it seems to me that there would be a better balance if the gal/min capitals had higher base hitpoints than their counterparts. Without that extra tank slot there still would be no way for them to match the outright tank of the amarr/caldari capitals but it would serve to bridge the EHP gap somewhat. I'm sure you've seen the numbers from the supercarrier thread but it is plainly ridiculous that aeons have nearly double the EHP and resists of a nyx.

Obviously with the loss of the tanking slot the gallente and minmatar capitals also gain a utility mid/low, but I'd argue that said slot is far less valuable than when the same treatment is given to subcaps. Firstly, the number of slots is high enough that the gain of a utility mid is only going to be a marginal gain. Going from 5 mids to 6 is nice but it's not going to really affect the capabilities of the ship the way that going from 2 mids to 3 mids would. Additionally and perhaps more importantly, supercaps generally aren't responsible for providing their own utility such as EW with their spare slots. Therefore, there's a quite limited amount of items to fit in these spare slots, and the difference between 5 and 6 isn't going to make a real meaningful difference once stacking penalties start applying. About the only advantage the erebus and rag have is marginally better application against subcaps with an extra TP/TC/TE than their peers.


does that even hold up with the capital plates and shield extender?
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#28 - 2016-04-04 21:34:06 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
*snip*

Forgive me if I am ignorant of how boosting works, but apart from opportunity cost, what stops you from using a Ragnorak and a Claymore at the same time? Both bonuses still apply, right? Presumably with stacking penalties? I've never had to consider that question because I have an Avatar, which has that unique bonus. And it's been years since I logged in my Avatar to use it as a booster (for anything other than a move op).


Only the largest of a particular fleet boost in the stack is applied, regardless of who it comes from. If you have a rag and a max sleipnir in the same fleet in FC and WC spots for example, only the rag's sig res bonus applies and the sleip might as well leave his sig res link at home.
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#29 - 2016-04-04 22:30:11 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

Forgive me if I am ignorant of how boosting works, but apart from opportunity cost, what stops you from using a Ragnorak and a Claymore at the same time? Both bonuses still apply, right? Presumably with stacking penalties? I've never had to consider that question because I have an Avatar, which has that unique bonus. And it's been years since I logged in my Avatar to use it as a booster (for anything other than a move op).

In the case of 2 bonuses on the same thing, it'll use the strongest bonus. So it'll use the Rag's bonus, it'll use the Erebus's bonus over 'armoured warfare' skill bonus to fleet members, etc.

Also, you prefer the Claymore because it can throw in 2 other links that are bonused and you can even use command processors to use more if you want.
FT Diomedes wrote:

This meta doesn't need more speed boosts, however rarely someone might use the Ragnorak for that in this era where you have to be outside the POS shields to boost.

As someone else pointed out above, this is all basically moot pending the removal of OGB.

IIRC the Titan boosts are like the squad commander boosts. They can boost without being outside of the POS shield, just can't use warfare links.


Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Seems like the Levi is getting a raw deal on DPS...

Titan Level 1
Levi (kin only) --- +50% damage, +15% ROF, +59% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +40% damage, +15% ROF, +47% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +180% damage, +5% ROF, +189% DPS overall
Avatar --- +180% damage, +0% ROF, +180% DPS overall

Titan Level 2
Levi (kin only) --- +100% damage, +30% ROF, +143% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +80% damage, +30% ROF, +114% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +360% damage, +10% ROF, +400% DPS overall
Avatar --- +360% damage, -0% ROF, +360% DPS overall

Titan Level 3
Levi (kin only) --- +150% damage, +45% ROF, +273% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +120% damage, +45% ROF, +218% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +540% damage, +15% ROF, +635% DPS overall
Avatar --- +540% damage, +0% ROF, +540% DPS overall

Titan Level 4
Levi (kin only)--- +200% damage, +60% ROF, +500% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +160% damage, +60% ROF, +400% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +720% damage, +20% ROF, +900% DPS overall
Avatar --- +720% damage, +0% ROF, +720% DPS overall

Titan Level 5
Levi (kin only)--- +250% damage, +75% ROF, +1,000% DPS overall
Levi (other dmg) --- +200% damage, +75% ROF, +800% DPS overall
Erebus & Rag --- +900% damage, +25% ROF, +1,200% DPS overall
Avatar --- +900% damage, +0% ROF, +900% DPS overall


Levi DPS bonus becomes comparable to the other titans once you get to LVL 5, but before that it isn't even close. Seems like this could be better optimised.

Your math is wrong. The Leviathan gets a 76% DPS boost at level 1.
(1 + (1 * 0.5)) / (1 - (0.15 * 1) = 1.7647

For a 76.5% increase to DPS.

Rate of fire isn't multiplied, it's divided. Same applies to the Rag/Erebus.

(1 + (1.8 * 1)) / (1 - (0.05 * 1) = 2.9474

For a 194.7% increase to DPS

That also changes your level 5 stats to:

Leviathan: +1200% DPS
Erebus/Ragnarok: +1233.3% DPS
Avatar: +900% DPS

At least if I'm not dumb and did the math right.

Of course, none of this actually matters as nobody would be dumb enough to fly them without level 5, right?
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#30 - 2016-04-04 23:20:53 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Your math is wrong.

Yes. Yes it is. That's embarrassing...
Level	Levi (kin)	      Levi (rest)	Avatar	     Rag + Erebus
   1	     76%	          65%	          180%	          195%
   2	     186%	          157%	          360%	          411%
   3	     355%	          300%	          540%	          653%
   4	     650%	          550%	          720%	          925%
   5	     1300%	          1100%	          900%	          1233%


So after using excel instead of the calculator on my phone the figures are different, but the point remains the same. The Levi DPS bonus is pitiful compared to the other titans at anything below level 5.

I feel you are correct about nobody flying their titan in anger with less than level 5, but the ship skill bonuses should probably not be balanced around that assumption.

Just look at the jump from level 4 to level 5! I'll eat my hat if that's well balanced...

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#31 - 2016-04-04 23:53:07 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
*snip*

Forgive me if I am ignorant of how boosting works, but apart from opportunity cost, what stops you from using a Ragnorak and a Claymore at the same time? Both bonuses still apply, right? Presumably with stacking penalties? I've never had to consider that question because I have an Avatar, which has that unique bonus. And it's been years since I logged in my Avatar to use it as a booster (for anything other than a move op).


Only the largest of a particular fleet boost in the stack is applied, regardless of who it comes from. If you have a rag and a max sleipnir in the same fleet in FC and WC spots for example, only the rag's sig res bonus applies and the sleip might as well leave his sig res link at home.


Thank you for setting me straight on this point.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#32 - 2016-04-04 23:54:51 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

IIRC the Titan boosts are like the squad commander boosts. They can boost without being outside of the POS shield, just can't use warfare links.




Thank you. I forgot this one as well. I should have known this, since it appears that my Avatar gives the cap recharge bonus even when it is cloaked.

One thing I love about Eve is that even after over nine years, I'm still learning things about how the game works.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#33 - 2016-04-05 01:26:30 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:

Yes. Yes it is. That's embarrassing...
Level	Levi (kin)	      Levi (rest)	Avatar	     Rag + Erebus
   1	     76%	          65%	          180%	          195%
   2	     186%	          157%	          360%	          411%
   3	     355%	          300%	          540%	          653%
   4	     650%	          550%	          720%	          925%
   5	     1300%	          1100%	          900%	          1233%


So after using excel instead of the calculator on my phone the figures are different, but the point remains the same. The Levi DPS bonus is pitiful compared to the other titans at anything below level 5.

I feel you are correct about nobody flying their titan in anger with less than level 5, but the ship skill bonuses should probably not be balanced around that assumption.

Just look at the jump from level 4 to level 5! I'll eat my hat if that's well balanced...


Note that your maths actually proves that it's the Avatar that sucks the most though.
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#34 - 2016-04-05 03:57:37 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Your math is wrong.

Yes. Yes it is. That's embarrassing...
Level	Levi (kin)	      Levi (rest)	Avatar	     Rag + Erebus
   1	     76%	          65%	          180%	          195%
   2	     186%	          157%	          360%	          411%
   3	     355%	          300%	          540%	          653%
   4	     650%	          550%	          720%	          925%
   5	     1300%	          1100%	          900%	          1233%


So after using excel instead of the calculator on my phone the figures are different, but the point remains the same. The Levi DPS bonus is pitiful compared to the other titans at anything below level 5.

I feel you are correct about nobody flying their titan in anger with less than level 5, but the ship skill bonuses should probably not be balanced around that assumption.

Just look at the jump from level 4 to level 5! I'll eat my hat if that's well balanced...


You are absolutely right there. The way the ROF bonus works makes it a massive jump from 40% duration to 25% duration. It's insanely massive, especially combined with the damage bonus on top of that. I wish there were a way to balance that like having part of the ROF bonus as a role bonus, but then the benefit to actually skilling titan wouldn't be as good. Besides completely reverting the planned rebalance on Capital missiles so they don't have a 2 minute cycle time making the ROF bonus unncessesary and giving the Leviathan a normal damage bonus there's no way to really fix it. That would also require balancing of the Siege mod.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#35 - 2016-04-05 06:22:10 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Your math is wrong.

Yes. Yes it is. That's embarrassing...
Level	Levi (kin)	      Levi (rest)	Avatar	     Rag + Erebus
   1	     76%	          65%	          180%	          195%
   2	     186%	          157%	          360%	          411%
   3	     355%	          300%	          540%	          653%
   4	     650%	          550%	          720%	          925%
   5	     1300%	          1100%	          900%	          1233%


So after using excel instead of the calculator on my phone the figures are different, but the point remains the same. The Levi DPS bonus is pitiful compared to the other titans at anything below level 5.

I feel you are correct about nobody flying their titan in anger with less than level 5, but the ship skill bonuses should probably not be balanced around that assumption.

Just look at the jump from level 4 to level 5! I'll eat my hat if that's well balanced...



Have the EHP updates been made already, because I could have sworn that Titans had much more EHP than they do now, the last time I checked. This update seems to have cut their EHP almost in half (you can buff them again with the new modules, but still).

But either way you look at it, these new stats look like a straight DPS upgrade. Remember, these are all the damage multipliers per gun. Take them all together, and a Level 5 Titans boasts more DPS with its regular guns than a sieged dreadnought.
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#36 - 2016-04-05 09:58:42 UTC
Guys, you are all asuming, that all Capital weapons do the same damage.
This is wrong!

1. to compare missiles with turrets is still wrong
- XL Torpedos won't hit for 100 %
Speed, signature radius: MWD, shield extender, target painter, webber

2. do we know the DPS of Lasers and Hybrid the moment?
- Avatar vs. Erebus


But never the less, yes there is a gap between level 4 and 5.

Yeah, a rank 14 skill like racial Titan should be worth to trained to level 5.
But that damage boost from 4 to 5 is crazy.

Doomsday still depends on Doomsday Operation only, right?
No other skill is pushing its damage?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#37 - 2016-04-05 13:12:01 UTC
Frankly, I don't particularly care that someone who only trains Caldari Titan IV does poor damage. It's a 100B ISK ship. Train the skill to V or GTFO.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#38 - 2016-04-05 21:02:13 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
Guys, you are all asuming, that all Capital weapons do the same damage.
This is wrong!

1. to compare missiles with turrets is still wrong
- XL Torpedos won't hit for 100 %
Speed, signature radius: MWD, shield extender, target painter, webber

2. do we know the DPS of Lasers and Hybrid the moment?
- Avatar vs. Erebus


But never the less, yes there is a gap between level 4 and 5.

Yeah, a rank 14 skill like racial Titan should be worth to trained to level 5.
But that damage boost from 4 to 5 is crazy.

Doomsday still depends on Doomsday Operation only, right?
No other skill is pushing its damage?


We do kind of know estimates for DPS numbers. The Erebus has the most with about 20k DPS at point blank range. The Avatar has the worst with IIRC about 17k DPS, but can project 13k to 80km optimal.

If you want the estimated numbers read here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/evecapitalfocusgroup/comments/4bxr7t/feedback_wanted_titan_bonuses/


I don't have time to actually copy it right now.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#39 - 2016-04-05 23:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Pryce Caesar
I swung by the test server to look at the new stuff, and there's a lot of it. The new Reaper and Lance Doomsdays appear to be those advertised to us in previous dev blogs, and each race has their own variants.

But there seems to be a new type of Doomsday as well. Rather the one that over-loads Capacitors, it appears to be some kind of super-smartbomb (like the Doomsdays of old). I can't remember the exact details, but it appears to generate a disruption in spacetime that heavily damages ships within a 10km radius of the Titan. Unlike the others, as well as the "Hand of God" Doomsday, this one can be used by all races.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#40 - 2016-04-06 00:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Pryce Caesar wrote:
I swung by the test server to look at the new stuff, and there's a lot of it. The new Reaper and Lance Doomsdays appear to be those advertised to us in previous dev blogs, and each race has their own variants.

But there seems to be a new type of Doomsday as well. Rather the one that over-loads Capacitors, it appears to be some kind of super-smartbomb (like the Doomsdays of old). I can't remember the exact details, but it appears to generate a disruption in spacetime that heavily damages ships within a 10km radius of the Titan. Unlike the others, as well as the "Hand of God" Doomsday, this one can be used by all races.


Titan grade discos! Interesting. Range is a bit short at 10K, maybe on intention to keep them from being too powerful I suppose. Even Bombers push 15Km with their main payloads, and I'm pretty sure I remember some high tier officer smarties can go past 10 already. And given their inherent size, 10Km is literally in it's face or up its...um, tail pipe.

Then again, I'll admit never gotten into a food fight with a Titan's weapons or decided to poke one with my one guns and see what it does when you do that ( Shocked I can imagine that may not be pleasant), so I'm not that well up on knowing what too strong and what's too weak for them.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."