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[Citadels] Titans

First post
Author
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#41 - 2016-04-06 02:57:34 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Pryce Caesar wrote:
I swung by the test server to look at the new stuff, and there's a lot of it. The new Reaper and Lance Doomsdays appear to be those advertised to us in previous dev blogs, and each race has their own variants.

But there seems to be a new type of Doomsday as well. Rather the one that over-loads Capacitors, it appears to be some kind of super-smartbomb (like the Doomsdays of old). I can't remember the exact details, but it appears to generate a disruption in spacetime that heavily damages ships within a 10km radius of the Titan. Unlike the others, as well as the "Hand of God" Doomsday, this one can be used by all races.


Titan grade discos! Interesting. Range is a bit short at 10K, maybe on intention to keep them from being too powerful I suppose. Even Bombers push 15Km with their main payloads, and I'm pretty sure I remember some high tier officer smarties can go past 10 already. And given their inherent size, 10Km is literally in it's face or up its...um, tail pipe.

Then again, I'll admit never gotten into a food fight with a Titan's weapons or decided to poke one with my one guns and see what it does when you do that ( Shocked I can imagine that may not be pleasant), so I'm not that well up on knowing what too strong and what's too weak for them.


Especially when you consider the fact that Titan XL Guns will no longer be weaker against sub-Capitals, and their new weapons bonuses pretty much mean that a fully fitted Titan boasts close to double the firepower of a Sieged Titan easily.

If memory serves, the Reaper-type Doomsdays have an arc along which they fire, allowing for sweeping shots across the battlefield. The Lance-type Doomsday fires in a single direction, but can destroy any class of ship caught in the path of the beam. In short, while normal Doomsdays are designed for use on Capital ships, the new types of Doomsdays seem geared to obliterate sub-capitals, just like the Doomsday weapons of old.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#42 - 2016-04-06 06:18:03 UTC
And after a few days of testing these changes, super carriers still come out on top in terms of damage and ability to tank.

I'm still shocked and amazed that even while fitting 2 capital reps or more, that:

1) Titans cant tank a single super carrier if its using heavy drones.
2) Can't tank a single dreadnought without using its DD against it.
3) Can't get repped by a FAX without the FAX running out of capacitor after 2 mins. And boy o boy, them triage modules ain't going to help with cap chains either. RiP capital logi tbh.

This forces me to consider replacing FAX wings / slowcat wings with 4-5 times the standard number of ships in just guardians or basilisks, because I'm just not seeing these new big toys being used for anything but station games and suitcases.

I'm hoping somebody can also give me a reasonable explanation why the rebalanced super cap game design allows for sub caps to get into stalemate engagements (1v1) where one doesn't have the dps to break the others tank or vice versa & being able to apply damage to every ship hull in this game without limitation or damage reduction.... while the supers seem to be plunged into a blob design package .... yet again..... Group some quicker locking blapping titans together while firing DDs, or group some buffer DD titans together while firing guns....

The reduction in HP seems to edge close to between 40-60% based on the differences I can see between Sisi and TQ at the moment. We've even had to go into plate and extender territory for our existing TQ fits (which severely hampers the CPU on most Titans without using pimp guns and pimp plates and implants) to achieve roughly 60% of what the current TQ stats are before boosts.

So we've seen this massive reduction in EHP for supers combined with a reduction in doomsday damage.... but I'm not seeing capitals that aren't doomsdayd or blapped by numerous titans dying in heaps.... if this is a game that supports spaceships exploding, why does it seem biased that the biggest of them die easier and can die to everything and not vice versa? Sure, the new line orientated AoE doomsdays are a welcome sight, finaly allowing supers to blap multiple ships again.... but again, this is a game of death and destruction.... why do sub caps get warnings about incoming super damage when their damage travel time is instant?

The capital microwarp drives aren't exactly living up to my hopes and dreams either:
1) I can't use it to correct my bump / flight path like any other ship in this game. (yea, why is titan bumping still such a huge thing?) If it creates such interesting game play, then the same endless bump should be applied to every other ship hull in this game.
2) Its only value is to reduce the time needed to enter warp upon stationary alignment.
3) max speed of 400ish (before plates & about 300ish after adding a few) isn't exactly going anywhere on super-sized-me grids anywhere soon.....

If your titan wasn't a boosting Taxi before these changes.... it may very well become one after.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#43 - 2016-04-06 14:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pryce Caesar
Can you honestly expect one ship of a certain class to completely tank others of the same class without fear of destruction? Titans are intended to be powerful, but still destructible by normal means.

I think the design element behind Capitals that you are complaining about is to ensure that this class of ship is not too powerful compared to the sub-capitals. I have yet to fly a Capital myself, but that is how I see things.

P.S. I think sub-caps get warning about Doomsdays because a Doomsday directed towards a sub-cap is essentially a one-hit KO on most classes of sub-capitals.
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#44 - 2016-04-06 15:42:22 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
And after a few days of testing these changes, super carriers still come out on top in terms of damage and ability to tank.

I'm still shocked and amazed that even while fitting 2 capital reps or more, that:

1) Titans cant tank a single super carrier if its using heavy drones.
2) Can't tank a single dreadnought without using its DD against it.
3) Can't get repped by a FAX without the FAX running out of capacitor after 2 mins. And boy o boy, them triage modules ain't going to help with cap chains either. RiP capital logi tbh.

This forces me to consider replacing FAX wings / slowcat wings with 4-5 times the standard number of ships in just guardians or basilisks, because I'm just not seeing these new big toys being used for anything but station games and suitcases.

I'm hoping somebody can also give me a reasonable explanation why the rebalanced super cap game design allows for sub caps to get into stalemate engagements (1v1) where one doesn't have the dps to break the others tank or vice versa & being able to apply damage to every ship hull in this game without limitation or damage reduction.... while the supers seem to be plunged into a blob design package .... yet again..... Group some quicker locking blapping titans together while firing DDs, or group some buffer DD titans together while firing guns....

The reduction in HP seems to edge close to between 40-60% based on the differences I can see between Sisi and TQ at the moment. We've even had to go into plate and extender territory for our existing TQ fits (which severely hampers the CPU on most Titans without using pimp guns and pimp plates and implants) to achieve roughly 60% of what the current TQ stats are before boosts.

So we've seen this massive reduction in EHP for supers combined with a reduction in doomsday damage.... but I'm not seeing capitals that aren't doomsdayd or blapped by numerous titans dying in heaps.... if this is a game that supports spaceships exploding, why does it seem biased that the biggest of them die easier and can die to everything and not vice versa? Sure, the new line orientated AoE doomsdays are a welcome sight, finaly allowing supers to blap multiple ships again.... but again, this is a game of death and destruction.... why do sub caps get warnings about incoming super damage when their damage travel time is instant?

The capital microwarp drives aren't exactly living up to my hopes and dreams either:
1) I can't use it to correct my bump / flight path like any other ship in this game. (yea, why is titan bumping still such a huge thing?) If it creates such interesting game play, then the same endless bump should be applied to every other ship hull in this game.
2) Its only value is to reduce the time needed to enter warp upon stationary alignment.
3) max speed of 400ish (before plates & about 300ish after adding a few) isn't exactly going anywhere on super-sized-me grids anywhere soon.....

If your titan wasn't a boosting Taxi before these changes.... it may very well become one after.

1. Why does a titan need to be able to tank the DPS of a dread or super locally? It doesn't put itself into any modes that prevent remote assistance and can be repper from outside. Besides, in a 1v1 the titan has about 2.5x the DPS of a dread, 10x the tank and the Doomsday to make all the difference.

2. Why shouldn't the titan telegraph the impending damage? Sure, the sub caps apply damage instantly (if not using drones or missiles), but unlike the titan, they are at risk of being killed in one hit. The AOE Doomsday will wipe a subcap fleet in seconds. A subcap fleet will take a lot longer than that to kill a titan, even with the upcoming EHP nerfs. Also the titan will be a lot more viable against subcaps then it is now, with ~7k DPS with Battleship tracking on HAWS.

3. The issues with the FAXes are issues with FAXes. I agree that they need work. I might have to remove all my triage modules for the time being.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#45 - 2016-04-06 15:58:36 UTC
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Pryce Caesar wrote:
I swung by the test server to look at the new stuff, and there's a lot of it. The new Reaper and Lance Doomsdays appear to be those advertised to us in previous dev blogs, and each race has their own variants.

But there seems to be a new type of Doomsday as well. Rather the one that over-loads Capacitors, it appears to be some kind of super-smartbomb (like the Doomsdays of old). I can't remember the exact details, but it appears to generate a disruption in spacetime that heavily damages ships within a 10km radius of the Titan. Unlike the others, as well as the "Hand of God" Doomsday, this one can be used by all races.


Titan grade discos! Interesting. Range is a bit short at 10K, maybe on intention to keep them from being too powerful I suppose. Even Bombers push 15Km with their main payloads, and I'm pretty sure I remember some high tier officer smarties can go past 10 already. And given their inherent size, 10Km is literally in it's face or up its...um, tail pipe.

Then again, I'll admit never gotten into a food fight with a Titan's weapons or decided to poke one with my one guns and see what it does when you do that ( Shocked I can imagine that may not be pleasant), so I'm not that well up on knowing what too strong and what's too weak for them.


Especially when you consider the fact that Titan XL Guns will no longer be weaker against sub-Capitals...


You might check out the signature resolution on those XL guns.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#46 - 2016-04-06 16:38:32 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

1. Why does a titan need to be able to tank the DPS of a dread or super locally? It doesn't put itself into any modes that prevent remote assistance and can be repper from outside. Besides, in a 1v1 the titan has about 2.5x the DPS of a dread, 10x the tank and the Doomsday to make all the difference.

2. Why shouldn't the titan telegraph the impending damage? Sure, the sub caps apply damage instantly (if not using drones or missiles), but unlike the titan, they are at risk of being killed in one hit. The AOE Doomsday will wipe a subcap fleet in seconds. A subcap fleet will take a lot longer than that to kill a titan, even with the upcoming EHP nerfs. Also the titan will be a lot more viable against subcaps then it is now, with ~7k DPS with Battleship tracking on HAWS.

3. The issues with the FAXes are issues with FAXes. I agree that they need work. I might have to remove all my triage modules for the time being.


1. Thanks for pointing it out. I've come to realize I'm complaining about the lack of bang for buck I get from fitting lesser cap sized modules on a super cap sized vessel.... like crying about "how the medium repper isn't living up to its name when fitted to a battleship". So ignore my 1st point as being a dumbass. I'll substitute it with "give me XXL mods".

2a) Sub capitals can alpha other sub capitals. Warning for that? Maybe we should retort all alpha scenarios with "this is Eve", HTFU or CrySumMoar?
2b) Last time I checked, a titan without damage mods and a rack of HAWs is pushing closer to 3k DPS within a 35km range.. lest that's changed again....

3) We tried FAX's without triage.... I still think guardians are better.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

MR Spleen
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2016-04-06 17:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: MR Spleen
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/scrap-yard-crane-1245773.jpg

Best image I've found of carriers after patch comes.

And this link expresses my thoughts so far https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6423214#post6423214

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.

Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#48 - 2016-04-07 04:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Asuka Solo wrote:

1. Thanks for pointing it out. I've come to realize I'm complaining about the lack of bang for buck I get from fitting lesser cap sized modules on a super cap sized vessel.... like crying about "how the medium repper isn't living up to its name when fitted to a battleship". So ignore my 1st point as being a dumbass. I'll substitute it with "give me XXL mods".

2a) Sub capitals can alpha other sub capitals. Warning for that? Maybe we should retort all alpha scenarios with "this is Eve", HTFU or CrySumMoar?
2b) Last time I checked, a titan without damage mods and a rack of HAWs is pushing closer to 3k DPS within a 35km range.. lest that's changed again....

3) We tried FAX's without triage.... I still think guardians are better.

The closest module to the Titan's AOE DD in subcaps is the bomb launcher. That's a module that telegraphs for 12 seconds, allows time to move out of range or perform countermeasures, and won't alpha anything with a lone bomb unless they're fitted poorly or they have a bloated signature radius. Other subcaps can alpha other subcaps, yes, but no subcap can alpha off 100 other subcaps. The suggestions as far as having no delay and no telegraph is like going back to the days of AOE DD. Subcaps wouldn't be able to share the field with a titan because the titan could at a whim remove all the subcaps at any time it wanted. This is not good gameplay.

As far as FAXes, I was more talking about removing all my triage modules on my carriers for now so I don't get FAXes after the patch. They're clearly not really worth it. At least at the moment.

Edit: Regarding HAWS, you're right on those numbers. I remembered wrong. That said, the Avatar gets about 2k DPS to 80+25km, the Leviathan should get around 3.5k DPS to 40km with CN Scourge Torps.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#49 - 2016-04-07 05:56:23 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

The closest module to the Titan's AOE DD in subcaps is the bomb launcher. That's a module that telegraphs for 12 seconds, allows time to move out of range or perform countermeasures, and won't alpha anything with a lone bomb unless they're fitted poorly or they have a bloated signature radius. Other subcaps can alpha other subcaps, yes, but no subcap can alpha off 100 other subcaps. The suggestions as far as having no delay and no telegraph is like going back to the days of AOE DD. Subcaps wouldn't be able to share the field with a titan because the titan could at a whim remove all the subcaps at any time it wanted. This is not good gameplay.

As far as FAXes, I was more talking about removing all my triage modules on my carriers for now so I don't get FAXes after the patch. They're clearly not really worth it. At least at the moment.

Edit: Regarding HAWS, you're right on those numbers. I remembered wrong. That said, the Avatar gets about 2k DPS to 80+25km, the Leviathan should get around 3.5k DPS to 40km with CN Scourge Torps.


Pipebombing battleships insta multiple pods / shuttles / frigates / destroyers that are landing on gates out of warp. I see that as taking out multiple ships without warning.

Bombs do significant damage at the least, insta frigates and dessies @ best in the blast radius. Where they do less damage is against bigger targets with more ehp than my bombs do damage given I'd need multiple bombers to dish out enough damage to take down a group of battleships. Towers on grid can wipe out singular targets within seconds.

Then there's citadel doomsdays with no warning as to which ships it will be jumping to.

We can go at this all day I'm sure. The point is, there are "cracks" where sub capital game play falls through the hurdles that caps and supers are forced to jump through due to [insert EHP argument here / insert DPS argument here / insert hobo rifter argument here].

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Ghaustyl Kathix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2016-04-07 14:20:43 UTC
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Quote:
There is no longer a hard reduction damage reduction v's subcaps on Titans.

Doesn't this risk bringing back blap titans using non-HAW guns? Even if the regular XL turrets have hilariously bad tracking, a battleship or high sig cruiser that's eating multiple 90% webs and a few painters is likely to take near-full damage from them.

Tested that out. Needed 3 90% webs, tracking scripts on the dread/titan and target painters to make it hit a battleship, and it still didn't hit very hard. High-Angles would do more and wouldn't take so much support to work.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#51 - 2016-04-08 13:09:25 UTC
i would like to put foward the suggestion that this class of ship be renamed from "titans" to "Super-Dreadnaughts" since the title of "Titan" is hardly deserved by these things now and nothing like the lore that we are given on them.
GoldSnake
Oblivion Watch
HYDRA RELOADED
#52 - 2016-04-08 17:21:20 UTC
My 2 cents would be to increase the cpu on the avatar so we aren't forced to use fitting mods on a titan just to use T2 guns. They are end game, outside of hard limitations on slot numbers for various modules there should be no reason to force this class of ship to downgrade weapons from T2 in order to fit a tank or use a fitting module in lieu of T2 weapons to fit anything else.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#53 - 2016-04-09 03:45:55 UTC
GoldSnake wrote:
My 2 cents would be to increase the cpu on the avatar so we aren't forced to use fitting mods on a titan just to use T2 guns. They are end game, outside of hard limitations on slot numbers for various modules there should be no reason to force this class of ship to downgrade weapons from T2 in order to fit a tank or use a fitting module in lieu of T2 weapons to fit anything else.


Don't XL Rigs that boost CPU (albeit at the expense of shield recharge) exist? There are also implants that can further increase CPU or decrease CPU of certain modules. You can easily use either of those (or both) to help buff up an Avatar's CPU to fit all guns.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#54 - 2016-04-09 03:54:12 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfmwvkIHwo

Wow. Can we say that this means goodbye to blob Titan fleets? If those were all Lances firing off and they were doing equal damage to all Titans in their line of fire...
Pleasure Hub Node-514
Pleasure Hub Hotline
#55 - 2016-04-09 04:03:54 UTC
Pryce Caesar wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfmwvkIHwo

Wow. Can we say that this means goodbye to blob Titan fleets? If those were all Lances firing off and they were doing equal damage to all Titans in their line of fire...

Also factor when Titans die, they'll proceed to do 200k damage at 10k range.

'One night hauler' The tell all story of a pleasure bot in Jita 4-4

Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#56 - 2016-04-09 04:13:34 UTC
Pleasure Hub Node-514 wrote:
Pryce Caesar wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfmwvkIHwo

Wow. Can we say that this means goodbye to blob Titan fleets? If those were all Lances firing off and they were doing equal damage to all Titans in their line of fire...

Also factor when Titans die, they'll proceed to do 200k damage at 10k range.


Whaaaaaaaaaat??? Shocked

Titans will now do two hundred THOUSAND damage to anything within a 10km radius of themselves when they explode? I heard about the capacitor disruption of nearby ships when they fire off the new Doomsday weapons, but this is even more news to my ears.

They already re-introduced an AoE Doomsday; now we've got thermonuclear Titan deaths. I guess we won't be seeing any more scenes like those people saw at B-R5RB; battles with mass Titan groups may end up much more spread out.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#57 - 2016-04-09 05:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Pryce Caesar wrote:
GoldSnake wrote:
My 2 cents would be to increase the cpu on the avatar so we aren't forced to use fitting mods on a titan just to use T2 guns. They are end game, outside of hard limitations on slot numbers for various modules there should be no reason to force this class of ship to downgrade weapons from T2 in order to fit a tank or use a fitting module in lieu of T2 weapons to fit anything else.


Don't XL Rigs that boost CPU (albeit at the expense of shield recharge) exist? There are also implants that can further increase CPU or decrease CPU of certain modules. You can easily use either of those (or both) to help buff up an Avatar's CPU to fit all guns.


Apparently you have never heard of opportunity cost. His point is that as an "end game" ship, it shouldn't have to use fitting mods or subpar implants to fit the ship. Not sure I 100% agree with him, but it does make a certain amount of sense. Unlike your response.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#58 - 2016-04-09 14:42:34 UTC
Titans may be the biggest and most expensive ships in the entire game, but "end game" does not exist in EVE Online, the last time I checked. Every ship only provided a new means of playing the game, and all of them can be lost in equal measure. Other ships sometimes require rigs or implants to either support their fittings or to augment them; the Titans are not any different with the upcoming T2 weaponry, which is the first time Capital Ships have been confronted with that particular issue.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#59 - 2016-04-09 14:55:01 UTC
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Titans may be the biggest and most expensive ships in the entire game, but "end game" does not exist in EVE Online, the last time I checked. Every ship only provided a new means of playing the game, and all of them can be lost in equal measure. Other ships sometimes require rigs or implants to either support their fittings or to augment them; the Titans are not any different with the upcoming T2 weaponry, which is the first time Capital Ships have been confronted with that particular issue.


See, this is a logical response. Unlike your "use a CPU rig" argument.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#60 - 2016-04-09 16:16:00 UTC
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Pleasure Hub Node-514 wrote:
Pryce Caesar wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfmwvkIHwo

Wow. Can we say that this means goodbye to blob Titan fleets? If those were all Lances firing off and they were doing equal damage to all Titans in their line of fire...

Also factor when Titans die, they'll proceed to do 200k damage at 10k range.


Whaaaaaaaaaat??? Shocked

Titans will now do two hundred THOUSAND damage to anything within a 10km radius of themselves when they explode? I heard about the capacitor disruption of nearby ships when they fire off the new Doomsday weapons, but this is even more news to my ears.

They already re-introduced an AoE Doomsday; now we've got thermonuclear Titan deaths. I guess we won't be seeing any more scenes like those people saw at B-R5RB; battles with mass Titan groups may end up much more spread out.


That damage is affected by sig