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[Citadels] Carriers

First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#81 - 2016-03-31 17:48:15 UTC
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



lol a lot of ppl seem to think the point drones are worth anything

your in a capital your support fleet should have plenty of long points not a single E-war drone is worth the hanger space and giving up 1/3 of your DPS except in a select few cases.

in short all the e-war fighters are about as useful as the e-war drones


Except you have 2 dedicated DPS fighter tubes and 1 dedicated support fighter tube.

You can't use 3 DPS wings at the same time.


WRONG i dont know why ppl have this idea

you have 3 tubes

you have 3 able to use light fighters

you have one able to use support fighters

you can have 3 combat fighters out OR 2 combat one support
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#82 - 2016-03-31 17:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



lol a lot of ppl seem to think the point drones are worth anything

your in a capital your support fleet should have plenty of long points not a single E-war drone is worth the hanger space and giving up 1/3 of your DPS except in a select few cases.

in short all the e-war fighters are about as useful as the e-war drones


Except you have 2 dedicated DPS fighter tubes and 1 dedicated support fighter tube.

You can't use 3 DPS wings at the same time.


This has been debunked already.
You can use 3 DPS Squadrons at the same time.


On the Nid:
Yeah, no, you're not going to go 2km/s anymore.
The "old", as in: the current, Nidhoggur gets up to 1800m/s hot with HG snakes and double Nano pre links.
It's basespeed is getting nerfed significantly, this alone will cut 300m/s. It's mass is getting increased significantly, this will put it down by probably another 100m/s or so. So, with skirmish links, you'll probably go 1700 or so HOT, and we all know how fast heated propmods burn out, especially if you have to cycle it three times in a row just to actually get to topspeed...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#83 - 2016-03-31 17:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Icarus Narcissus wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



lol a lot of ppl seem to think the point drones are worth anything

your in a capital your support fleet should have plenty of long points not a single E-war drone is worth the hanger space and giving up 1/3 of your DPS except in a select few cases.

in short all the e-war fighters are about as useful as the e-war drones


Except you have 2 dedicated DPS fighter tubes and 1 dedicated support fighter tube.

You can't use 3 DPS wings at the same time.


This has been debunked already.
You can use 3 DPS Squadrons at the same time.


On the Nid:
Yeah, no, you're not going to go 2km/s anymore.
The "old", as in: the current, Nidhoggur gets up to 1800m/s hot with HG snakes and double Nano pre links.
It's basespeed is getting nerfed significantly, this alone will cut 300m/s. It's mass is getting increased significantly, this will put it down by probably another 100m/s or so. So, with skirmish links, you'll probably go 1700 or so HOT, and we all know how fast heated propmods burn out, especially if you have to cycle it three times in a row just to actually get to topspeed...



this is with no implants or links you can get 2km/s now on sisi

Remember there is now a capital MWD

i have spent the last week trying to see what i can do to break carriers dreads and FAX

EDIT: this is also with no speed mods in the lows
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2016-03-31 18:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
What was the reasoning for lowering the thanatos dps bonus (from 5 to 2.5%)
Why not up the dps to 4% per level same as the resist bonus on archon and chimera, then you wouldnt have to choose between 20% more resists or 150-300 dps more.


Take a second to look at stats past bonuses before giving your 2 cents


The nid and the than have much larger done bays and can each get well over 1mill ehp

These ships are no longer built to contend in capital fights so the extra tank on the archon and chimera don't mean much as they don't need to tank capital dps and you can kill all of their fighters b4 you kill them. That 2.5 damage bonus is also a 2.5speed/tank making your fighters much harder to kill



As it is Archons ate almost useless and chimera ate not much better when it comes to filling the anti sub cap role (Tbh they all suck) but at least the than and nid have a chance to get some semblance of dps



Unless the math I've seen is wrong, the archon will both outdamage AND outtank a thanny/nid.

Ed: Without EFT/fitting window on sisi working, it is hard to confirm.
Icarus Narcissus
Pathway to the Next
The Revenant Order
#85 - 2016-03-31 18:02:09 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


This has been debunked already.
You can use 3 DPS Squadrons at the same time.


Good to know thanks. I have had quite a bit of trouble finding time to get on Sisi.

As I think is evident by my earlier post, I believe the current bonuses are not ideal. If anything this makes the case even worse as 10% of thee fighter wings is even more of a discrepancy than 10% of two.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#86 - 2016-03-31 18:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
What was the reasoning for lowering the thanatos dps bonus (from 5 to 2.5%)
Why not up the dps to 4% per level same as the resist bonus on archon and chimera, then you wouldnt have to choose between 20% more resists or 150-300 dps more.


Take a second to look at stats past bonuses before giving your 2 cents


The nid and the than have much larger done bays and can each get well over 1mill ehp

These ships are no longer built to contend in capital fights so the extra tank on the archon and chimera don't mean much as they don't need to tank capital dps and you can kill all of their fighters b4 you kill them. That 2.5 damage bonus is also a 2.5speed/tank making your fighters much harder to kill



As it is Archons ate almost useless and chimera ate not much better when it comes to filling the anti sub cap role (Tbh they all suck) but at least the than and nid have a chance to get some semblance of dps



Unless the math I've seen is wrong, the archon will both outdamage AND outtank a thanny/nid.


how the than and nid don't need to use their lows for tank as they both get a strong shield tank

even if you do armor tank the thanny rather than shield you now have a much faster more cap stable and longer range fighter platform than the archon

EDIT and again you have more fighters in both the nid and thanny
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#87 - 2016-03-31 18:54:39 UTC
I like the fact that you're taking away literally every reason there is to fly a carrier for those that can afford supercarriers.

There's nothing distinctive or better about carriers in this patch except that they're somewhat cheaper and proportionally crappier and oh here's a bonus to ewar effects on fighters that will get within range anyway and make the bonus pointless.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#88 - 2016-03-31 18:57:51 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I like the fact that you're taking away literally every reason there is to fly a carrier for those that can afford supercarriers.

There's nothing distinctive or better about carriers in this patch except that they're somewhat cheaper and proportionally crappier and oh here's a bonus to ewar effects on fighters that will get within range anyway and make the bonus pointless.


lol have you seen that dreads work even better with HAW and require months less in training time
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2016-03-31 19:32:36 UTC
Hey Mates,

We've tweaked the bonuses & stats a little. We've upped the damage bonus of the Thanatos and Nidhoggur up to 5% per level, and brought the amount of shield/armor a little closer together between the Archon/Thanatos & Chimera/Nidhoggur.

Let us know what you think :)

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

SWJesus
WE HATE
#90 - 2016-03-31 19:34:40 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Dear CCP Larrikin,

..
The Archon can get the Thanny's tank using only 5 slots, if the Thanny uses all 6. This leaves the Archon with either 2 DDAs, which will be significantly stronger than the measly 12.5% the Thanny gets as skillbonus, or it simply fits more tank. A lot more.


THIS,
the resi bonuses are plain out ********..
They dont scale at all with the dmg boni of the other races, also
specially considering that Chim/arch have mroe slots for theyr racial tank to start with..

how can ccp not do simple math and overpower two races ??
Lugh Crow-Slave
#91 - 2016-03-31 19:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hey Mates,

We've tweaked the bonuses & stats a little. We've upped the damage bonus of the Thanatos and Nidhoggur up to 5% per level, and brought the amount of shield/armor a little closer together between the Archon/Thanatos & Chimera/Nidhoggur.

Let us know what you think :)


if thats the case can the chimera and archon have comparable drone bays with the nid and thanny?

because right now i see very little reason to use these two carriers considering carriers are only good against sub caps the chimeras fighter hanger is the biggest joke

currently they do less DPS and are easier to knock out of the fight
Lugh Crow-Slave
#92 - 2016-03-31 19:42:15 UTC
SWJesus wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Dear CCP Larrikin,

..
The Archon can get the Thanny's tank using only 5 slots, if the Thanny uses all 6. This leaves the Archon with either 2 DDAs, which will be significantly stronger than the measly 12.5% the Thanny gets as skillbonus, or it simply fits more tank. A lot more.


THIS,
the resi bonuses are plain out ********..
They dont scale at all with the dmg boni of the other races, also
specially considering that Chim/arch have mroe slots for theyr racial tank to start with..

how can ccp not do simple math and overpower two races ??


i love how everyone thinks the chimera and archon are going to be overpowered after using them on sisi the extra tank meant nothing because you could just kill all their fighters
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2016-03-31 20:28:29 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hey Mates,

We've tweaked the bonuses & stats a little. We've upped the damage bonus of the Thanatos and Nidhoggur up to 5% per level, and brought the amount of shield/armor a little closer together between the Archon/Thanatos & Chimera/Nidhoggur.

Let us know what you think :)



I like it, that should make the different carriers more balanced among each other.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i love how everyone thinks the chimera and archon are going to be overpowered after using them on sisi the extra tank meant nothing because you could just kill all their fighters


If that is the case (I didnt test this that much), than that would be a seperate problem of balancing survivability of fighters. The balancing of the races among each other should not be based on such a different problem.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#94 - 2016-03-31 20:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Marranar Amatin wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hey Mates,

We've tweaked the bonuses & stats a little. We've upped the damage bonus of the Thanatos and Nidhoggur up to 5% per level, and brought the amount of shield/armor a little closer together between the Archon/Thanatos & Chimera/Nidhoggur.

Let us know what you think :)



I like it, that should make the different carriers more balanced among each other.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i love how everyone thinks the chimera and archon are going to be overpowered after using them on sisi the extra tank meant nothing because you could just kill all their fighters


If that is the case (I didnt test this that much), than that would be a seperate problem of balancing survivability of fighters. The balancing of the races among each other should not be based on such a different problem.


but its not a different problem

its all suitability chimera and archon can survive better under capital fire but than and nid can last better against smaller guns
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2016-03-31 20:53:19 UTC
I do not think there is much of a difference in the survivability against small guns.

I cant login right now to check the numbers, but I think the Thanatos with the largest bay can fit 87 fighters, so the chimera with the smallest one should fit 68. Additionally both have 27 already in the tubes. So in total its 114 vs 95.

If the extra tank does not matter because you can just kill the fighters, then carriers in general have the problem that they cant do **** because you can just kill the fighters. In that case the few more fighters wont make a real difference. Thats what I mean with seperate problem.
The 2.5% shield/speed bonus per level wont make much of a difference either.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
My Other Laboratory is a Distillery
#96 - 2016-03-31 21:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hey Mates,

We've tweaked the bonuses & stats a little. We've upped the damage bonus of the Thanatos and Nidhoggur up to 5% per level, and brought the amount of shield/armor a little closer together between the Archon/Thanatos & Chimera/Nidhoggur.

Let us know what you think :)

It's definitely a step in the right direction. The Nidhoggur seems like a reasonable option now for its speed bonus. The Thanatos still seems a bit underwhelming though. 12.5% more fighter durability can't get close to competing with 12.5% speed for most uses. If someone is going to kill your fighters, they'll do it regardless of a little extra durability, while the speed bonus can easily mean the difference between fighters keeping up with their target or the target outrunning them. It's also a range bonus or can mean choosing higher damage but slower fighters.
I propose buffing the Thanatos a little more with a 6% or maybe even 7% damage bonus to give it back the Gallente drone damage niche, and 5% fighter durability so it actually makes a noticeable difference.

With the current bonuses though, there's really no incentive to train a carrier skill to 5 for the normal hulls. Currently they get an extra drone which is effectively a 10-20% damage bonus per level and might justify training a 14x skill to 5. With that bonus removed for the Archon and Chimera, and drastically reduced for the Thanatos and Nidhoggur, you'd be a fool to spend over 40 days training level 5 unless you need it for another ship like a super. And if you have a super there are few reasons to use a carrier instead since they're worse in every way except cost and docking.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#97 - 2016-03-31 21:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Marranar Amatin wrote:
I do not think there is much of a difference in the survivability against small guns.

I cant login right now to check the numbers, but I think the Thanatos with the largest bay can fit 87 fighters, so the chimera with the smallest one should fit 68. Additionally both have 27 already in the tubes. So in total its 114 vs 95.

If the extra tank does not matter because you can just kill the fighters, then carriers in general have the problem that they cant do **** because you can just kill the fighters. In that case the few more fighters wont make a real difference. Thats what I mean with seperate problem.
The 2.5% shield/speed bonus per level wont make much of a difference either.


except along with the larger bay the minm and gal ones are harder to kill the speed one makes the largest diferance

but to be honest balancing the hulls is going to be pointless if CCP doesn't balance the class it's self atm we have no reason to use these things (maybe the new damage on the nid and than will make them usefull) fighters just do not do enough damage and the e-war are no where near viable


EDIT:

TBH that speed bonus is probably the strongest bonus out of all these better def and offence
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#98 - 2016-03-31 21:24:45 UTC
The change to 5% dmg is good. No need to fear carriers stepping into Super's terrain anyways. While the skillbonuses of the Nid / Thanatos now get the same damage than Aeon / Wyvern, the latter can field 5 squadrons at once and - which is way more important - can field heavy fighters. Nidhoggur should be a viable choice now compared to the Chimera, on the Thanatos I'm not sure yet.


So, right now with the added damage, it looks like this:

Shield: Chimera, the tanky one, Nidhoggur, the DPS one. A good tradeoff in my opinion.
Armor: Archon, the... better one, sadly. I'll explain why.

Carriers main use will be: DPS. After stripping them from their logistics role, all they can do is apply pressure with their fighter squadrons. While on shield setups, the midslots are used for tanking and the lowslots are used for damage, on armor the lowslots get used for both, tanking AND damage. Thus, the armor carrier that has the most "effective lowslots" is the better one.
In case of the Archon, it has 7 lowslots and 1 "imaginary" or "effective" lowslot through it's hullbonus: 20% resistance on Carrier V, which is very close to an EANM - thus the "effective" lowslot.
The Thanatos has 6 lowslots and 1 effective lowslot in form of it's Fighter Damage Bonus, being slightly above a T2 DDA.

My suggestion would be now: Take away one Highslot from the Thanatos and add it as an additional lowslot, bringing it to 8 effective lowslots aswell and thus on par with the Archon.
If fitting for maximum tank, the Archon would still win and be the tanky choice, as it's having one effective lowslot that is not stacking penalized and will thus reach higher overall resistances. If fitting for maximum dps, it's the other way round, the Thanatos now has the advantage because one of it's effective lowslots is not stacking penalized. When fitting for a balance between dps and tank, they'd come out roughly equal.
They would be differenciated through their High- and Midslot layout though, with the Archon having more "offensive" options - a utility high is usually used for modules like Nos, Neut, Smartbomb, Fighter Support Unit, etc. etc..
The Thanatos would be more versatile however, being able to fit an additional Drone Nav Comp for example, or go for a light shield tank with a maximum dps / mobility setup.

Overall, the move of one high to one low on the Thanatos will put it in line with the Archon and making it NOT the worse choice every time. It would make it an interesting choice instead.

Maybe this could also be adapted to the Nyx and resolve the issues with that one.

What do you guys think?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#99 - 2016-03-31 21:31:47 UTC
Also, @Lugh Crow-Slave,

i see that you often mention how the Nid/Thanny would be the better carriers as they would simply kill off the Archon/Chims fighters and thus win. First of all, this would only be true in a 1v1 carrier dogfight.
Second, it will not always boil down to this. There are so many variables, ranging from highslot modules to fighter layout (How many interceptors do you carry, how many support fighters, how many light fighters - An Archon with a full rack of interceptor fighters would wipe out any Thanatos' mixed fighterbay with ease), that you simply can't claim this point to be the truth.
There's also a thing called micromanagement, which you can see already when 2 droneboats fight each other. Usually, the droneboat that has it's drones close to itself - and in scoop range - is at an advantage, as taking drones (or: fighters) out of the combat that are being shot is a lot more easy that way.

Now add in other ships aswell, such as 2 rifters on one carrier's side and suddenly the whole outcome of the fight would be different. You couldn't imagine this now, 2 rifters helping a carrier making it suddenly beat another carrier, that simply isn't really possible right now. On April 27th, it is.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#100 - 2016-03-31 21:32:35 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
No need to fear carriers stepping into Super's terrain anyways.

No, the opposite is my concern.

There's no reason to use carriers as these stats are aside from them being cheaper.