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[Citadels] Carriers

First post
Author
Icarus Narcissus
Pathway to the Next
The Revenant Order
#41 - 2016-03-31 13:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus Narcissus
Other Bonuses that would be nice:

Capital Armor Repairer Amount per Level
Agility per Level


That said, it is evident in the Force Auxiliary ships that when it comes to Gallente vs Amarr and Minmatar vs Caldari, the former seems to be more focused on small groups, while the latter seems to be more focused on larger groups.

I think what we should be able to do is look at these ships and say "That [Thanatos/Nidhoggur] would make an excellent single carrier support for my small/medium [armor/shield] gang."

No, it may not be the old role, but it would be significantly better than looking at them (especially the Thanatos) and saying "why would I ever fly these again?".

--Attention--Game mechanic discussion ends here, small lore rant below, proceed at own risk--Attention--

Throughout the lore we see numerous examples of the Gallente being the leaders in drone/fighter technology. Why are they suddenly by far the worst when it comes to capital drone/fighter warfare? Yes, the Amarr have recently begun work with Drone technology as seen in the Arbitrator, Prophecy, and Armageddon retrofitting in the past few years. No, they do not have over a hundred years of drone technology research dedicated to being able to defend the crews of their warships when under heavy electronic warfare assault. If nothing else, we need to be able to look at the Thanatos and say "yes, that is something that would come out of a culture that stands at the pinnacle of this type of weapons technology".
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2016-03-31 13:40:48 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You can launch 3 combat squadrons last I checked.


A carrier can launch 3 squadrons, but when I tried, you cannot launch 3 DPS squadrons. You can only launch 2 and then the third can only be a support squadron.

I do not know if the one type of squadron that is designed just for other drones/fighters is considered a combat squadron, but when I was on, I could not launch 3 of the dps focused fighters.

Sorry I am at work and do not remember the exact terminology here. I will do my best below.

There are 3 types of light fighters for carriers

- DPS fighters for attacking ships

- Interceptor fighters designed to attack other fighters and drones. These do junk damage to subcaps.

- Support fighters - These are your E-War fighters.

Based on my testing, I was unable to launch 3 DPS squadrons. I did not try to launch 2 DPS and 1 interceptor squadron as I do not know if interceptors are considered support or not.


Hi Scotsman,
There are 3 classes of fighters, Light, Support and Heavy.
Inside the Light Fighter class, there are two roles, General (Templar, Dragonfly, Firbolg & Einherji) and Space Superiority or Interceptor (Equite, Locust, Satyr & Gram).

A comparable example with ships would be the Class Cruiser, and Roles Logistics (Osprey), EWar (Blackbird) & Damage (Moa/Caracal).

Carriers can launch up to a maximum of 3 Light squadrons (regardless of role) and 1 support squadron.

I hope that explain things a little better :)

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-03-31 13:42:50 UTC
7km/s ain't slow, nor is a passive 2km/s.
Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#44 - 2016-03-31 13:45:41 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come


I assume you are referring to PVP, and in that case, I would agree.

However, my initial reaction is that the Nid will be the BEST Carrier to PVE in.

Reasoning:

You basically have to launch a support squadron since you can only launch two combat squadrons. The webbing bonus on the nig is better than the warp disruption on the Thanny in this respect.

It may come down to the fits though. The Nid has the extra mid, so you could fit an extra drone nav comp on it but if you shield tank it, it could mean an extra low compared to an armored Thanny.

Time and EFT will tell.


yes i was referring towards PvP... not that they got used much before either in all honesty
DeathForMeh
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-03-31 14:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: DeathForMeh
@CCP Larrikin Fighter Support Units bonus to ROF is extending the rate of fire cycle rather than reducing it which make it a penalty currently. Also will there be a way of seeing the final stats for fighters after the fit/skills applies in the future?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2016-03-31 14:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Rob Kaichin wrote:
7km/s ain't slow, nor is a passive 2km/s.



2km/s will take a bit of getting to from a 1km/s base (well, "base" @Vs).
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#47 - 2016-03-31 14:13:36 UTC
As others pointed out already, please don't relegate the Thanny / Nidd to even more PvP irrelevancy than they already suffer with those hull bonuses.

Ideally nix the resist bonuses completely (and adjust base HP/resists) since those are so important in PvP that they can't really be balanced in desirability with something else. Or give all carriers a resist bonus but of different types (ex. 5%/lvl EM/TH armor, 5%/lvl TH/KI armor, etc) so that different carriers can be effective against different comps (and reversely best countered with different comps).
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2016-03-31 14:14:04 UTC
DeathForMeh wrote:
@CCP Larrikin Fighter Support Units bonus to ROF is extending the rate of fire cycle rather than reducing it which make it a penalty currently. Also will there be a way of seeing the final stats for fighters after the fit/skills applies in the future?


Oh good catch, I'll check that out. Thankyou!

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2016-03-31 14:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Just as everyone said when you released the info to the focus group, the Nid and Thanny are headed towards trash tier. And you ignored all of the feedback, even from the focus group you made to give you said feedback, as well as the several hundred comments on the non focus group thread.

Seriously disappointing

You can get more Tank, and more DPS, at the same time out of an Archon than you can a Thanny.

Not impressed, CCP.
Kinizsi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2016-03-31 14:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come



Actually..... the Nidi becomes the best ratting Carrier.
And LIF becomes the best Force Aux because the cycle time bonus on it's remote reps and tank and cap booster bonuses.
Anthar Thebess
#51 - 2016-03-31 14:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
CCP think about making thanny and niddy more pvp oriented ships.
You are making them worst in new meta than they are in current capital meta.

Kinizsi wrote:
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come



Actually..... the Nidi becomes the best ratting Carrier.
And LIF becomes the best Force Aux because the cycle time bonus on it's remote reps and tank and cap booster bonuses.


What about people who want to do PVP not PVE?
My assumption is that CCP don't want to make 2 carriers viable only in PVE - but i can be wrong.
We are also talking about carriers, not FAX.

Chimera and archon get huge bonus compared to one that have thanny and niddy.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2016-03-31 14:26:37 UTC
I just want to say, isn't it great that all these people have come from the future to tell us how these changes will go down...

/s

I think, in PvP, considering the magnitude of these changes, it's going to be very hard to predict how they'll go down.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#53 - 2016-03-31 14:39:54 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
I just want to say, isn't it great that all these people have come from the future to tell us how these changes will go down...

/s

I think, in PvP, considering the magnitude of these changes, it's going to be very hard to predict how they'll go down.


Unless the nid and than can miraculosly outrun heavy fighters, they're gonna be ****. The nid maaaaaaybe not so much like the than, but still, pretty ****. Especially since the 50gn devours what, 400cap/s?
Icarus Narcissus
Pathway to the Next
The Revenant Order
#54 - 2016-03-31 14:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus Narcissus
Just did some super basic napkin math. A pilot with Amarr Carrier I will have a better tank and better DPS than a person with Gallente Carrier V if that is the only skill that's different between the two pilots.

This assumes that the Archon Pilot put the same 6 modules in their first six lows, and a T2 Drone Damage Amplifier in their empty low.

Benefits an Archon pilot with Amarr Carrier I would have over a Thanatos Pilot with Gallente Carrier V:
*4% more base EM Resistance
*4% more base Thermal Resistance
*14% more base Explosive Resistance
*10.5% more Fighter Damage
75,000 more base Powergrid (~10%)
*6,900 more base Armor (~10%)
*3,000 more Capacitor Capacity (~5%)
280km more lock range (not sure how relevant this is at this range, but ~7.5%)
5 more base scan resolution (~7.5%)
40m smaller signature radius (less than 1%)
5% bonus to Cenobite Neutralization optimal range


Benefits a Thanatos Pilot with Gallente Carrier V would have over an Archon pilot with Amarr Carrier I
*1 more mid slot
*6% more Kinetic Resistance
*12.5% more Fighter HP

100 more base CPU (~16%)
6,900 more base Shield (~14%)
7,200 more base Hull (~10%)
0.06 more capacitor per second (less than 1%)
5% faster base align time
*10,000m3 larger fighter hangar bay (~15%)
50m3 larger cargo hold (~5%)
4 more base sensor strength (~5%)
25% bonus to Siren warp disruption range


I bolded (and starred) the bonuses I think will be more relevant.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2016-03-31 14:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Rob Kaichin wrote:
I just want to say, isn't it great that all these people have come from the future to tell us how these changes will go down...

/s

I think, in PvP, considering the magnitude of these changes, it's going to be very hard to predict how they'll go down.


Not really. These changes were announced on the focus group threads a while ago, and they have been on the test server for a good while. And since no changes have been made since then, the results of testing then are still valid.

And it's exactly what your first impression would be.

That a 20% resist bonus is far more powerful in PvP than a 12.5% damage/fighter health bonus.

You can literally remove one tank mod from an Archon and put a damage mod in instead, and have higher buffer, higher resist, higher EHP, higher DPS, more capacitor, faster capacitor recharge than a Thanatos.

Literally the only thing that the Thanatos is better at is a 12.5% difference in fighter EHP (MEEEEEEHHH) and an ever so slightly faster align time.

Seriously. They ignored what every single person in their original feedback threads told them and threw this out anyway.
Kinizsi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2016-03-31 14:46:01 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP think about making thanny and niddy more pvp oriented ships.
You are making them worst in new meta than they are in current capital meta.

Kinizsi wrote:
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come



Actually..... the Nidi becomes the best ratting Carrier.
And LIF becomes the best Force Aux because the cycle time bonus on it's remote reps and tank and cap booster bonuses.


What about people who want to do PVP not PVE?
My assumption is that CCP don't want to make 2 carriers viable only in PVE - but i can be wrong.
We are also talking about carriers, not FAX.

Chimera and archon get huge bonus compared to one that have thanny and niddy.


Actually nothing changed
For PVP you allways used Archon and Chimera, after the patch you'll be using the same two again.
Thanny and Nidi were only good for to die faster, cause you were 100% primary in any capital engagement because your weak tank.....EHP what only matters in capital fights, noone really cares the damage, and that won't change......live longer, die later, give more time for your fleet.




Lair Osen
#57 - 2016-03-31 14:50:44 UTC
What's up with the resists. They're all the same, no racial variation?

And the Nid has an extra 10% armour EM Resist to 60%. is that a typo?
Icarus Narcissus
Pathway to the Next
The Revenant Order
#58 - 2016-03-31 15:01:06 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
What's up with the resists. They're all the same, no racial variation?

And the Nid has an extra 10% armour EM Resist to 60%. is that a typo?



Archon:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 25 / 20

Chimera:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 45 / 25 / 10

Thanatos:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 35 / 10

Nidhoggur:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 60 / 35 / 25 / 10

The shields are not racially varied currently in the top post.
The armors are racially varied as a 50/35/25/10 with an additional +10% to the enemy faction's primary damage.
Malakai Asamov
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#59 - 2016-03-31 15:01:20 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
What was the reasoning for lowering the thanatos dps bonus (from 5 to 2.5%)
Why not up the dps to 4% per level same as the resist bonus on archon and chimera, then you wouldnt have to choose between 20% more resists or 150-300 dps more.

This.
Huge ehp bonus for chimera and archon.
Much smalled dps bonus on thanny.
Why do you choose to use thanny if you can do more damage in archon by surviving much longer.

Simple test:
Put against each other thanny and archon fitted in the same way, both pilot have same skills.
Check what carrier will win.
Hint:
Archon

The bigger number of carriers, the bigger advantage of huge EHP buff against minor DPS increase.


unless the thanatos kills all the archons fighters.....?
Michael Oskold
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#60 - 2016-03-31 15:02:31 UTC
ive played with a bunch of these on the test server so far. im diggin the attention required. i think the thannys bonus is a bit lackluster in comparison to the rest. You shouldnt be afraid to make it the dps machine that it was meant to be. I would drop the hp bonus and buff the damage. I think the nid will see a fair bit of use in small gang and ratting because of the blessed speed bonus so im excited :3 also 2k+ nids are a thing on the test server B) (as well as nano archons :D)