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[Citadels] Carriers

First post
Author
interSTELLA555
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#61 - 2016-03-31 15:15:27 UTC
Can you explain wtf
the
Siren Warp Disruptor
Cenobite Neutralizer
and all of those modules actually are?
I haven't been on SiSi if they are their and
I understand SiSi is quite buggy.

Can you explain?
Icarus Narcissus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-03-31 15:22:02 UTC
interSTELLA555 wrote:
Can you explain wtf
the
Siren Warp Disruptor
Cenobite Neutralizer
and all of those modules actually are?
I haven't been on SiSi if they are their and
I understand SiSi is quite buggy.

Can you explain?


These are explained in another post further back, but basically they are new EWAR Fighters.

Siren is the Warp Disruptor Support Fighter
Cenobite is the Energy Neutralizer Support Fighter
Scarab is the ECM Support Fighter
Dromi is the Stasis Webifier Support Fighter

There is another new set of anti-fighter fighters as well that you may see mentioned in the thread.
Icarus Narcissus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-03-31 15:23:05 UTC
Double post please delete.
Silenar
Floating-Point Operations
appetite of nothing
#64 - 2016-03-31 15:36:37 UTC
Same issue as the super level, albeit not as bad. 12.5% damage is not as strong as 20% resists. EANM II is 20% all resists (25% with 4 skills maxed), DDA II is 20.5% damage bonus. Both take a low slot, comparable CPU (DDA2 actually uses less), and are passive modules. How did damage suddenly become so much more valuable on carriers?


Change damage bonus to 4%/level as well.


Also while you're making adjustments, please consider adjusting the building materials for the Thanatos so that it's not consistently more expensive than the others to build, by a decent margin.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#65 - 2016-03-31 15:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
List of bonuses that are more interesting than 2.5% dmg/level:

5% dmg/lvl
7.5(10)% interceptor squadron damage bonus/lvl
5(7.5, 10)% interceptor squadron speed
5(10, 15)% reduced capacitor need for mwd/lvl
5% speed/lvl
10% shield boost amount/lvl
10% reduced capacitor need for capital armor repairers/lvl




If you got ideas, expand it!


-10% mass per level and -5(7.5 or whatever is mathematically necessary) velocity per level // idea: Reduce mass to make them align significantly better, nerf speed in the same turn to reduce the effects it has on the thrust of the 50GN MWD. Results: Fast aligning carriers that get slightly more speed out of their MWDs than the archon/chim, however also horribly increased aligntimes while prop on. (See Nestor for reference, it has cruiserish aligntimes but gets big fat amarrian aligntimes when using a large propmode)
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2016-03-31 16:17:29 UTC
So the fighter damage is still as low as it was before, and there still is this huge imbalance between fighters, meaning firbolgs are the best and everything else is crap if you do not rely on a certain damage type.

Look at Navigation Computer vs Damage Amplfier for example. 30% velocity Bonus and 20.5 % damage increase for the TII variant. And usually you fit more DDA than navs.
So why should it be fair if for example Firbolgs do 22% more damage then Einhejri and Einherji are 22% faster? Or that Firbolgs have 16% more damage than Templar, and Templar are 16% faster? Damage is more valueable, you should cut the difference in damage in half.


And as already mentioned in the last thread, fighters do significantly less damage than on tranq. Now carriers lost the support ability and also get a dps nerf? That still doesnt make much sense.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#67 - 2016-03-31 16:21:01 UTC
Combat Wombatz wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
This is correct, you'll need to train Light Fighters to 1 before you can use Light Fighters.


So we're going to need to get back to hisec to purchase the book before being able to use the stuff we can already fly? I thought that was something that you guys specifically always tried to avoid?

I don't mind the training time too much as long as there's an additional benefit to it, but I do mind two days of jump cloning and the added expense to continue flying something we already use.

What about people living in carriers built in W-space, for example?

Maybe look into injecting the skill at rank 0 for people who have fighters trained?


You can buy the skills now

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lugh Crow-Slave
#68 - 2016-03-31 16:26:11 UTC
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come


I assume you are referring to PVP, and in that case, I would agree.

However, my initial reaction is that the Nid will be the BEST Carrier to PVE in.

Reasoning:

You basically have to launch a support squadron since you can only launch two combat squadrons. The webbing bonus on the nig is better than the warp disruption on the Thanny in this respect.

It may come down to the fits though. The Nid has the extra mid, so you could fit an extra drone nav comp on it but if you shield tank it, it could mean an extra low compared to an armored Thanny.

Time and EFT will tell.


yes i was referring towards PvP... not that they got used much before either in all honesty


the nid has become an amazing tackle capital and you wont understand just how valuable that speed bnonuse to fighters is untill you see how limited fighter range really is

also why can you only launch two combat squads all carriers can launch 3

Lugh Crow-Slave
#69 - 2016-03-31 16:28:40 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
So the fighter damage is still as low as it was before, and there still is this huge imbalance between fighters, meaning firbolgs are the best and everything else is crap if you do not rely on a certain damage type.

Look at Navigation Computer vs Damage Amplfier for example. 30% velocity Bonus and 20.5 % damage increase for the TII variant. And usually you fit more DDA than navs.
So why should it be fair if for example Firbolgs do 22% more damage then Einhejri and Einherji are 22% faster? Or that Firbolgs have 16% more damage than Templar, and Templar are 16% faster? Damage is more valueable, you should cut the difference in damage in half.


And as already mentioned in the last thread, fighters do significantly less damage than on tranq. Now carriers lost the support ability and also get a dps nerf? That still doesnt make much sense.


dont forget they are also outdone by HAW as well
Creecher Virpio
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#70 - 2016-03-31 16:35:48 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:



Archon
Amarr Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Cenobite Neutralization optimal range

  • Chimera
    Caldari Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Scarab Jamming optimal range

  • [/list]

    Thanatos
    Gallente Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Siren warp disruption range


  • Nidhoggur
    [i]Minmatar Carrier Bonus (per skill level):

  • 5% bonus to Dromi Stasis Webification range



  • why would you give a bonus to range and not a bonus to strength? unless this takes you out of smartbomb range, which im pretty sure none of these orbit in smart bomb range to begin with, this bonus is worthless?

    the only worthwhile one is MAYBE the point range from the thannatos.
    25% extra range on jams or webs or neuts really means nothing. a bonus to strength would actually give you a reason to fly these particular support fighters with their racial carrier, as it stands now, this range bonus does nothing to encourage you to use your races support fighter.
    Quesa
    Macabre Votum
    Northern Coalition.
    #71 - 2016-03-31 16:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
    Hey Larrikin, love you long time.

    I honestly think that carriers and dreads were in a really good place when it came to HP. Offsetting the HP for the inclusion of plates and shield extenders was never really needed. The addition of the plates and extenders would have worked out just fine as you would have to sacrifice one aspect (resistance/attack power) to gain more HP, which seemed like a good trade. With the change you propose, the ship will be less useful (in terms of ability to tank/soak damage) thus less useful as the fleet sizes increase.
    Syrias Bizniz
    some random local shitlords
    #72 - 2016-03-31 16:38:50 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
    Scotsman Howard wrote:
    Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
    RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come


    I assume you are referring to PVP, and in that case, I would agree.

    However, my initial reaction is that the Nid will be the BEST Carrier to PVE in.

    Reasoning:

    You basically have to launch a support squadron since you can only launch two combat squadrons. The webbing bonus on the nig is better than the warp disruption on the Thanny in this respect.

    It may come down to the fits though. The Nid has the extra mid, so you could fit an extra drone nav comp on it but if you shield tank it, it could mean an extra low compared to an armored Thanny.

    Time and EFT will tell.


    yes i was referring towards PvP... not that they got used much before either in all honesty


    the nid has become an amazing tackle capital and you wont understand just how valuable that speed bnonuse to fighters is untill you see how limited fighter range really is

    also why can you only launch two combat squads all carriers can launch 3




    I don't think that 3 fighters will withstand a lot of pressure.
    FT Cold
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #73 - 2016-03-31 17:04:35 UTC
    Do the skill requirements for various cap modules and fighters on sisi reflect what they're going to be on tranq?
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #74 - 2016-03-31 17:16:21 UTC
    Mimiko Severovski wrote:
    What was the reasoning for lowering the thanatos dps bonus (from 5 to 2.5%)
    Why not up the dps to 4% per level same as the resist bonus on archon and chimera, then you wouldnt have to choose between 20% more resists or 150-300 dps more.


    Take a second to look at stats past bonuses before giving your 2 cents


    The nid and the than have much larger done bays and can each get well over 1mill ehp

    These ships are no longer built to contend in capital fights so the extra tank on the archon and chimera don't mean much as they don't need to tank capital dps and you can kill all of their fighters b4 you kill them. That 2.5 damage bonus is also a 2.5speed/tank making your fighters much harder to kill



    As it is Archons ate almost useless and chimera ate not much better when it comes to filling the anti sub cap role (Tbh they all suck) but at least the than and nid have a chance to get some semblance of dps
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #75 - 2016-03-31 17:18:23 UTC
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
    Scotsman Howard wrote:
    Lexiana Del'Amore wrote:
    RIP thanny/Nid... no reason to ever fly them once these changes come


    I assume you are referring to PVP, and in that case, I would agree.

    However, my initial reaction is that the Nid will be the BEST Carrier to PVE in.

    Reasoning:

    You basically have to launch a support squadron since you can only launch two combat squadrons. The webbing bonus on the nig is better than the warp disruption on the Thanny in this respect.

    It may come down to the fits though. The Nid has the extra mid, so you could fit an extra drone nav comp on it but if you shield tank it, it could mean an extra low compared to an armored Thanny.

    Time and EFT will tell.


    yes i was referring towards PvP... not that they got used much before either in all honesty


    the nid has become an amazing tackle capital and you wont understand just how valuable that speed bnonuse to fighters is untill you see how limited fighter range really is

    also why can you only launch two combat squads all carriers can launch 3




    I don't think that 3 fighters will withstand a lot of pressure.

    What do you mean
    Syrias Bizniz
    some random local shitlords
    #76 - 2016-03-31 17:22:02 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

    What do you mean


    I mean that i don't think that some small **** with 15k EHP will last long if it's far away from the safety of a hangar.
    Your tackle squadrons will get shot down in no-time.
    Circumstantial Evidence
    #77 - 2016-03-31 17:35:04 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Combat Wombatz wrote:
    So we're going to need to get back to hisec to purchase the book before being able to use the stuff we can already fly? I thought that was something that you guys specifically always tried to avoid?

    Yes. The books have been seeded on Sisi for a month now though...so you have plenty of time :)
    It seems to me much simpler to use the existing Fighters skill for Light Fighters. Support Fighters is a new type deserving of a new skill. Fighter-Bombers will be renamed to Heavy Fighters, cool. I think another precedent for the idea of using as many existing skills that make sense in the new scheme, was the removal of a dedicated FAX skill.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #78 - 2016-03-31 17:36:21 UTC
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

    What do you mean


    I mean that i don't think that some small **** with 15k EHP will last long if it's far away from the safety of a hangar.
    Your tackle squadrons will get shot down in no-time.


    O.o go try it the web drones are only out there long enough for the 2km/s nid to get there and swap them out for combat fighters
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #79 - 2016-03-31 17:38:19 UTC
    Creecher Virpio wrote:
    CCP Larrikin wrote:



    Archon
    Amarr Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Cenobite Neutralization optimal range

  • Chimera
    Caldari Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Scarab Jamming optimal range

  • [/list]

    Thanatos
    Gallente Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
  • 5% bonus to Siren warp disruption range


  • Nidhoggur
    [i]Minmatar Carrier Bonus (per skill level):

  • 5% bonus to Dromi Stasis Webification range



  • why would you give a bonus to range and not a bonus to strength? unless this takes you out of smartbomb range, which im pretty sure none of these orbit in smart bomb range to begin with, this bonus is worthless?

    the only worthwhile one is MAYBE the point range from the thannatos.
    25% extra range on jams or webs or neuts really means nothing. a bonus to strength would actually give you a reason to fly these particular support fighters with their racial carrier, as it stands now, this range bonus does nothing to encourage you to use your races support fighter.



    lol a lot of ppl seem to think the point drones are worth anything

    your in a capital your support fleet should have plenty of long points not a single E-war drone is worth the hanger space and giving up 1/3 of your DPS except in a select few cases.

    in short all the e-war fighters are about as useful as the e-war drones
    Icarus Narcissus
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #80 - 2016-03-31 17:43:07 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



    lol a lot of ppl seem to think the point drones are worth anything

    your in a capital your support fleet should have plenty of long points not a single E-war drone is worth the hanger space and giving up 1/3 of your DPS except in a select few cases.

    in short all the e-war fighters are about as useful as the e-war drones


    Except you have 2 dedicated DPS fighter tubes and 1 dedicated support fighter tube.

    You can't use 3 DPS wings at the same time.