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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

First post First post
Author
Dave Stark
#341 - 2016-02-26 16:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
just out of curiosity. what are you trying to achieve by banning overlays?

whether i look 1 inch to the left at an overview on an overlay, or 4 inches to my left at a totally separate instance of the game - i'm still getting real time intel from another client. which was your dev blog example of an "unfair advantage". it's either unfair, or it isn't, you seem to have only outlawed it in certain cases.

it's just very difficult to see what you're trying to achieve with such a contradictory policy. it seems to make very little sense.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6363060#post6363060 Lucas Kell explains my point far better than I do.
Annexe
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#342 - 2016-02-26 16:25:13 UTC
Do these new policies include key macros? ie: using 1 key to trigger multiple keys.

And how does CCP intend on enforcing these policies without being able to monitor the users actions first hand?





Annexe

ITAI - VIP

"i will pop your wreck with faction loot"

Robnik Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2016-02-26 16:28:08 UTC
Thank you, based CCP Grimmi. I was very concerned with the language of the policy as-written but your clarifications have allayed my concerns. I do wish you had a 3rd party whitelist, but as long as you are willing to provide clarifications about acceptable use then I see no issue. Thanks again. \o/
Red Single
Doomheim
#344 - 2016-02-26 16:28:25 UTC
Quote:
Applications/tools that do modify the client, do extract or try to interpret any information from within the clients window, do interact with the client (sending data/keystrokes to the client window), do inject anything into the clients memory or try to interact with the client in any way which cannot be achieved without using said applications/tools, are not allowed.


Does this include programs that allow pass though clicks/keypress?

Fletchter
Dropbears Anonymous
Brave Collective
#345 - 2016-02-26 16:37:51 UTC
The clarification is good.

But can we get a 'Why' explanation in regards to the changes with cut up windows/overlay? Are the people dual boxing logi the problem? The solo Miner/Incursion fleet guys?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2016-02-26 16:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
Annexe wrote:
Do these new policies include key macros? ie: using 1 key to trigger multiple keys.

And how does CCP intend on enforcing these policies without being able to monitor the users actions first hand?








there are no new policies, only clarification.

key macro (multiple action via single key) is a no-no since like forever

As for the second question CCP will never tell You how they detection software works, but do read on anomalies detection a little.
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#347 - 2016-02-26 16:47:23 UTC
Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups


  1. One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client?

  2. Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now?

  3. Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example:

    • I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts?
    • I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client?

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#348 - 2016-02-26 16:47:31 UTC
Thanks Grimmi

CCP Grimmi wrote:
Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it.
Just to clarify on this note, cutting up a windows is not allowed as you've put here, it has to be a full unchanged window, but what about if people layer their windows in such a way that only the relevant part of each is displayed? As I pointed out in a previous post, this is OK, but this is not OK. It seems like an entirely ridiculous distinction. I can understand why disallowing the ability to click through on those segments of windows would be impossible, but for viewing only, people will be able to see parts of inactive windows simply by layout alone, and the worry people have is that by doing it they will get banned as there's no way to really prove they weren't using a cut out overview/ship status vs layered windows (or window previews).

You see, this:
CCP Grimmi wrote:
We do not necessarily need to differentiate between different systems. If the logs show activity that should not be possible through normal means, we will take action.
Is the most important part to me, ensuring that there's enough of a distinction to ensure people aren't just being banned because they are cleverly using their screen/window management tools and window previews. With EVE-O preview (and now with windows 10 features alone) people can achieve a pretty high level of efficiency, certainly what would be considered an advantage over those that don't use it (which is why people bother to use it in the first place). I think a lot of people just want to be assured that they won't suddenly be banned because they've become "too efficient" while they still follow the rules completely. Because let's face it, being able to rapidly switch between 16 clients certainly would achieve things that aren't achievable "through normal means".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#349 - 2016-02-26 16:49:04 UTC
Praal wrote:
Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups


  1. One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client?

  2. Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now?

  3. Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example:

    • I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts?
    • I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client?




CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :)
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
#350 - 2016-02-26 16:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
CCP Grimmi wrote:

Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it.

What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout?

This is a major use-case for a lot of people.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2016-02-26 16:54:42 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Uh. I launched a client and forgot about it, and left it under my browser. Then it was very odd to me that I could hear EVE sounds as my mouse moved around the screen. Apparently my mouse location was registering in the EVE client when it was hidden behind another window? Is this new? Am I going to be penalized for a false positive if I find myself in a similar scenario in the future?

Whenever I have multiple eve clients open (just regular windowed mode) I have noticed that non focused clients will react to mouse movements on the top/focused client. Like when my fleet is docked and I have the clients set to show who else is docked. While I move the mouse around on the top/focused client I can see names being highlighted on the other clients that are beneath. That has always freaked me out.
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#352 - 2016-02-26 16:56:32 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :)

I hope so, but would be good to have confirmation that they can (and do) differentiate between key bursts sent to the EVE client, vs key bursts to other applications on the same system while the EVE client is open.
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#353 - 2016-02-26 16:57:23 UTC
Thank you for your clarification.

There are some fringe cases, but I guess you have answered most of the possible cases.
Tavion Aksmis
Perkone
Caldari State
#354 - 2016-02-26 16:59:43 UTC
Rejoice PLH wont get you banned PiratePirate

Also good to know you are not banning monitors, LOL BlinkBig smile
Chalithra Lathar
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#355 - 2016-02-26 17:16:40 UTC
tl;dr its nothing
Helios Anduath
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2016-02-26 17:22:13 UTC
Fifth Blade wrote:
CCP Grimmi wrote:

Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it.

What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout?

This is a major use-case for a lot of people.


Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode,
<< those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements.
Yarith
Unlimited Blade Works.
#357 - 2016-02-26 17:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarith
Helios Anduath wrote:
Fifth Blade wrote:
CCP Grimmi wrote:

Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode, no matter how large or small they are scaled, like it is done by EVE-O Preview as of today, are fine with us. These overlays do not allow any direct interaction with the EVE Client and you have to bring the respective EVE Client to the front/put the window focus on it, in order to interact with it.

What about applications which display only a portion of the eve client in preview mode, such as ontopreplica showing the local user list from a scout?

This is a major use-case for a lot of people.


Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode,
<< those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements.


OTR can be used to show the entire window or just a part of it. How is CCP going to know if it's being used to show the full eve client, a portion of the eve client or for an entire different program ( like netflix, mpc or even youtube )?
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
#358 - 2016-02-26 17:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
Helios Anduath wrote:


Overlays which contain a full, unchanged, EVE Client instance in a view only mode,
<< those words answer your question. Chopped up windows = not OK. Full client = OK. This ties into the original blog where it said elements.

You can use the same application to clone the entire window, then resize it among other things. Which would not break the EULA as described.

So does that mean you're banned if you break the rules? Or merely if you use a program which could potentially break said rules?

I'll simplify it for you:
  • If it's the former they'll have difficulty distinguishing between actual abuse and normal use of the window management software.
  • If it's the latter you simply cannot use any capable window management software without the risk of being randomly banned (since if it includes the potential to be used that way - you simply cannot risk using it).


The distinction is fairly important.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#359 - 2016-02-26 17:42:37 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Praal wrote:
Thank you for your answers! A few follow-ups


  1. One part of multiboxing window management is often removing the window border of a client (borderless window). Is this allowed as window management or banned as a modification of the client?

  2. Can you confirm if the non-gameplay uses of broadcasting specifically allowed In this dev post (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571) are still allowed now?

  3. Is your detection system able to differentiate between the availability / use of forbidden practices on the system (for other apps / games) and their use with the EVE client. For example:

    • I have ISBoxer. I use it for window management only with EVE. I use it for window management and broadcasting with EverQuest (not at the same time). Are you able to recognize that my broadcasting config applies to a different game and the EVE client is not receiving / sending broadcasts?
    • I have AutoHotkey and use it so speed-up certain work-related taks. If I have EVE running (but not being the focus window) and I use a hotkey which sends multiple keystrokes to a non-EVE app (say a telnet client), are you able to recognize that the 1-press-many-actions that happened did not involve the EVE client?




CCP does not minitor app You run, they just see keystrokes send to client faster than humanly possible, over and over and ban :)


Actually, the EULA states that CCP may monitor your system. That doesn't mean they do at the moment but they could be and you'd never know it.
Yarith
Unlimited Blade Works.
#360 - 2016-02-26 17:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarith
edited out nvm