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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
#2161 - 2016-02-20 03:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ken Bekle
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. ....
Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them.


On the contrary, life can be rendered "futile" when present events cause one to re-cast the joys of one's past into sorrow in the present. So many people like to say "I live for the present." or "I live in the moment."

Tiberius actually understands those words and lives them. Though I don't know him/her, I bet there is a very joyful person behind that avatar.

"Credit cards" are "waved" every day at every conceivable type of human endeavor. Sports. Science. Medicine. Games. Philanthropy. You name it. We celebrate all of them. Often the people that celebrate new achievements most loudly are the people who's prior achievements (goals) were surpassed.

Good on you, mate, Tyberius.

Ken
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
#2162 - 2016-02-20 03:41:52 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
What I don't understand is how them introducing the SP trading, changes the value of your time retroactively? That just makes no sense at all. You have have enjoyed your time playing EVE for X number of years. You made the journey, which according to some philosophies, is more worth than the end point. That they introduce something now, that you don't like, would at most ruin your enjoyment of the game now. It does not negate the X years you enjoyed, as you already have had your fun. That is not being taken away. If you feel like it is, then it is a mentality thing on your part. Just be happy about the time you enjoyed, and if you don't enjoy it now, then stop playing. Being bitter will severely affect your general life quality, and it is not worth that.


For those for whom an event in the present can alter their enjoyment of their past, no explanation will be sufficient.

I've spent all of my adult life married to a woman who had a choice to let the death of her husband at 25 recast all of the goals they'd achieved as a young couple into dross OR celebrate the many goals they'd achieved, then go on to build new ones.

That's true mastery at life.

L5 achieved.

The same mindset is possible vis-a-vis Eve and CPP.




Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2163 - 2016-02-20 09:01:14 UTC
Ken Bekle wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
... Everything I did, said, and had done to me in the game is intact and in no way invalidated. ....
Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them.


On the contrary, life can be rendered "futile" when present events cause one to re-cast the joys of one's past into sorrow in the present. So many people like to say "I live for the present." or "I live in the moment."

Tiberius actually understands those words and lives them. Though I don't know him/her, I bet there is a very joyful person behind that avatar.

"Credit cards" are "waved" every day at every conceivable type of human endeavor. Sports. Science. Medicine. Games. Philanthropy. You name it. We celebrate all of them. Often the people that celebrate new achievements most loudly are the people who's prior achievements (goals) were surpassed.

Good on you, mate, Tyberius.

Ken
That was a truly awesome analogy, Bribes - back handers - covert payments - more bribes, philanthropy i dont see anyone giving there skill points away either Roll

Before pay for (Insert your favorite meaning ) deployed, the game was engaging and immersive. each few days giving you the buzz that you were going to be flying something either bigger or diverse in the role you were playing obviously moving to weeks / month for bigger and better but its what kept you coming back all the time - The goals.

Now all it's become is he/she who has access to the cash wins, win being instantly attaining the level of character they desire to fly said ship/doctrine. If you have nothing to aim for or others around you see that with cash you can instantly jump from weeks to years ahead of the crowd what incentive is there to carry on except you jump on the band wagon ( CCP Hopes ) or you get left behind and say screw it. You have taken a game that was a completely level playing field and turned it into the have's and have not's - people play games to take a break from real life not to have it rubbed in there faces once again and this is whats happened here.

Working towards a goal and getting it is an achievement - flexing your wallet to get the same result is not at all the same thing and certainly not an achievement.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2164 - 2016-02-20 12:00:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Bones Outten wrote:
Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes?
But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it.
Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#2165 - 2016-02-20 14:48:55 UTC
This is Eve in 2016

Source

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.

Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
#2166 - 2016-02-20 15:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsuko Kanami
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2167 - 2016-02-20 16:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Berrice Silf wrote:
philanthropy i dont see anyone giving there skill points away either Roll

If I was quitting eve i wouldn't give you anything either (maybe 0.01isk)

Goes to our newbies who have other things to do besides post on eveo

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2168 - 2016-02-20 19:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Bones Outten wrote:
Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes?
But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it.
Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.
The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. Training isn't something that someone else can stop you from using in any way. They can rent motorcycles all they want, they're now free to do so and it doesn't bother me at all since we were all never in a race to begin with.

When I sought peak SP per hour it was for my own benefit in expanding my own skills faster that I myself would otherwise, not catching up of keeping up with others. I've had years to learn to deal with people having more SP than me while still enjoying the game, so even if the broke out F1 cars, so long as those cars can harm my bike I'm still not going to insist they can't have then to make me feel better or pretend it means I have to get an F1 car now to in order to try to be happy with the game.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2169 - 2016-02-20 20:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Berrice Silf
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Bones Outten wrote:
Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes?
But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it.
Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.
The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. Training isn't something that someone else can stop you from using in any way. They can rent motorcycles all they want, they're now free to do so and it doesn't bother me at all since we were all never in a race to begin with.

When I sought peak SP per hour it was for my own benefit in expanding my own skills faster that I myself would otherwise, not catching up of keeping up with others. I've had years to learn to deal with people having more SP than me while still enjoying the game, so even if the broke out F1 cars, so long as those cars can harm my bike I'm still not going to insist they can't have then to make me feel better or pretend it means I have to get an F1 car now to in order to try to be happy with the game.
The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry.
Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex.
They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away Blink

A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2170 - 2016-02-20 20:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Berrice Silf wrote:
The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry.
Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex.
They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away Blink

A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in.
Problematically to you objection, with the exception of sov changes, every single factor in that complaint is both voluntary and completely avoidable.

You want a 1x charge for you time or are concerned about $/SP the course is simple. Sub your account and train normally. Stop acting like this is somehow compulsory. Just don't use it.

The only way CCP makes more money from this is people using it, and if they're using it they must find it worthwhile. And it's their choice made under their values. I don't find it worthwhile, as you point out, so I don't use it. Simple. Still paying for 30 (or 90/180/360) days at a time and nothing more (save the occasional aur skin for personal use).

As also stated before: I gave what I believed was a good balance point on this but was overruled by CCP, now for those that participate the market consequences for the pricing, if any, will become apparent. But since the numbers don't match up to what I think is appropriate it makes it easier to just do as I'd originally planned on doing since the first thread, not using the mechanic.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2171 - 2016-02-20 20:45:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry.
Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex.
They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away Blink

A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in.
Problematically to you objection, with the exception of sov changes, every single factor in that complaint is both voluntary and completely avoidable.

You want a 1x charge for you time or are concerned about $/SP the course is simple. Sub your account and train normally. Stop acting like this is somehow compulsory. Just don't use it.

The only way CCP makes more money from this is people using it, and if they're using it they must find it worthwhile. And it's their choice made under their values. I don't find it worthwhile, as you point out, so I don't use it. Simple. Still paying for 30 (or 90/180/360) days at a time and nothing more (save the occasional aur skin for personal use).

As also stated before: I gave what I believed was a good balance point on this but was overruled by CCP, now for those that participate the market consequences for the pricing, if any, will become apparent. But since the numbers don't match up to what I think is appropriate it makes it easier to just do as I'd originally planned on doing since the first thread, not using the mechanic.
That was very eloquently put, what i asked you is it double dipping a some what jaded client base, also with the advancement mechanics in full swing now doesn't it seem more like a f2p model.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2172 - 2016-02-20 20:58:43 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
That was very eloquently put, what i asked you is it double dipping a some what jaded client base, also with the advancement mechanics in full swing now doesn't it seem more like a f2p model.
The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that).

As such no, I don't see an F2P model here, but as posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing.

Besides, the core of all SP advancement is still training, which is sub based. If'when CCP introduces trainingless subs we'll have room to re-evaluate and discuss this further alongside the willingness to continue playing/paying. Till then I'm content with the current choice to not participate from both a fair price standpoint as well as personal preference in how I develop my characters.
Ken Bekle
Jednota Inc
#2173 - 2016-02-20 23:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ken Bekle
withdrawn
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2174 - 2016-02-22 04:19:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Bones Outten wrote:
Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes?
But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it.
Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.
The problem with that analogy is that there is 0 room for interference or impedance. .
Books.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2175 - 2016-02-22 06:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Books.
Don't provide a means of impedance for training.

Edit: And more importantly haven't changed in any that provides specific benefit to injector users over normal training users, so there was really no argument to begin with here.
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#2176 - 2016-02-22 13:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that).


Although this is obviously correct, the individual perspective is different. If I do not pay money from my wallet, it is F2P for me - if I do, it is not. I can play for free for many years with money that someone else paid in the past and that has already been spent by CCP (it might have been accrued in the balance sheet, but a good portion of the liquidity has already been used).

The major problem I see at the current stage is, that with character progression over time, more and more players do not need to pay for the game with their own wallets. This growing number of potential F2Players has to be substituted by more players who are willing to spend RL money or by players, who are willing to spend more money.

There are not so many options for CCP:

a) make it far more difficult to pay for your gametime with ISK

This implies the danger of decreasing player numbers and such be bad for marketing and option b) - and the game, but I am talking business only

b) get more new players in and keep them

This will require a bundle of measures that might include changing game mechanics to cater to a younger customer base, which might have different expectations compared to the current average customer base. If I think of my 14 year old son who tried EvE for a while - the game would have to be very different from its current stage in order for him to stay interested in. His friends did not even give it a try when he was playing and advertising it - most of them are "playing" SC on the other hand.

c) find other ways to monetize on your IP

This is what is currently enforced - now for the first time with the visible goal to support option b), I am not so sure how succesful this will be in the long run.

It will very likely be a combination of all three options and I assume that we "older" players might not like all of them as we are not the primary target group.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2177 - 2016-02-22 13:42:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Books.
Don't provide a means of impedance for training.
Can be.
Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2178 - 2016-02-22 14:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Berrice Silf
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that). As such no, I don't see an F2P model here.
I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing.
No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen.
Suede
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2179 - 2016-02-22 21:10:11 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The F2P model is dependent on the F, which we don't have in any true form yet (every sub is still paid even if indirectly and the means to pay it, even selling SP, doesn't fundamentally change that). As such no, I don't see an F2P model here.
I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As posted in the past I do agree on the concept of double dipping, but that's an opinion on a personal level. Other have argued the current price beneficial and I'm willing to concede they may have a point given the mechanic is both new and as of yet not collapsing.
No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen.


CCP should make eve in to a F2P Model

Free-to-play (F2P) refers to video games which give players access to a significant portion of their content without paying. There are several kinds of free-to-play games, but the most common is based on the freemium software model. For freemium games, users are granted access to a fully functional game, but must pay microtransactions to access additional content. Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay-to-play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time.

The model was first popularly used in early massively multiplayer online games targeted towards casual gamers, before finding wider adoption among games released by major video game publishers to combat video game piracy and high system requirements. Without up front payment, publishers may charge money for in-game items or integrate advertisements into the game.

i don't see the point in paying a sub to CCP in regards to how CCP is as company or even a business. if they going more down the Pay to win model to a company might as well overprice the gold ammo.

Least CCP will get more player playing eve might even make more money in the SP Trading. F2P model for eve online is best road to drive down.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2180 - 2016-02-22 21:48:07 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design.
Sounds like you're taking an overly broad yet somehow amazingly narrow approach to the definition of F2P design. To draw from my limited F2P experience:

GW2 and WoT wouldn't count as F2P despite actually being free to play due to not having, so far as I remember when I played them, daily allowances of resources where you could have bought our way around limits.

Meanwhile a sub game, in this case Eve, does count as F2P due to what is in my view still a mischaracterization of an already existing condition being enabled by other mechanics prior.

We're just getting more divergent here, before we were just disagreeing on whether this made Eve F2P, now I think we've moved into disagreeing on what F2P design is.

Berrice Silf wrote:
No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen.
CCP charges to move anything around, as such the expectation to do so for free would have to be made in ignorance of concepts like PLEX prices relative to a sub and character transfer fees. Further while stock will decrease to just that produced by farms demand for SP shouldn't stay constant I'd estimate. Especially with rising costs for diminishing returns as buyers build more SP.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Can be.
Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy.
Maybe you should be less cryptic and state what you mean. How does having friends or not having friends prevent me from purchasing, injecting, and queuing skills? Seems to be working fine either way.