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Always able to run? And no Concord? Unknowable missions?

First post
Author
Takari
Resource Warring
#121 - 2016-02-17 20:39:25 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
It's interesting we'd go the whole thread and all people do is talk about points.

No interest in the other points in the subject? Still plenty of opportunity to flame me for thinking about changing PVE. I'm sure there's fire aplenty somewhere for all my heresy that'll never get implemented and wasn't even a request for change.

But. Points. That was the whole message.


I'm not going to trek back to page one now since I already hit "reply" and I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE?

The only one I took issue with was points/scrams change. The others I would have to see fleshed out a little more.

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#122 - 2016-02-17 20:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
You can always tell someone doesn't care when they incessantly prattle on about how little they care.

Reminds me of a jilted teenage girl going on about her ex. Lol

Especially in bulleted-list form. Lol

Quote:
"Their game play depends on points. If I had a way to move away, they'd get nothing. Would there even be camps - a play style that seems to me unfun - if that was true? How would they play? What would it be like? How would the game empower their play style, a different play style?"


Here's what it would be like:

They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and adamantly insist that while you don't actually care, the game needs to be changed so that doesn't happen anymore. For their benefit, of course. Not yours. You don't care, but they must have been very bored and were surely not enjoying themselves at all.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2016-02-17 20:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fa Xian
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed?


It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently?

I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me.

But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?

The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2016-02-17 20:45:18 UTC
Takari wrote:
I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE?


The point was really thinking about slaying sacred cows and seeing if they made good hamburger.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2016-02-17 20:47:59 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and...


Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#126 - 2016-02-17 20:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Fa Xian wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
They would sit on the same gate with SEBOed tornadoes and instantly blap you. You would come back here the next day and...


Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them.


Think about how you could form an actual argument instead of trying to offload that responsibility onto others.

You idly wondered, "Would there even be camps?"

I answered that question.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#127 - 2016-02-17 20:53:35 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
How do you account for the fact that EVE has been one of the top ranked MMOs for well over a decade, if the design is flawed?


It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently?

I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me.

But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?

The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....


exploration is boring, i like shooting people

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2016-02-17 20:56:39 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
... they must have been very bored and were surely not enjoying themselves at all.


To me it seems boring. But hey, maybe they like it. It's a high traffic zone, perhaps they like instantly destroying a lot of cheap FW frigates? It doesn't seem to take a lot of skill, coordination, or execution. As you pointed out, there's merit in fitting well for it and the proof is in the doing.

But you're right. I shouldn't assume that just because it looks dull, hanging on a gate, not moving, waiting for something to jump so you can pounce and automatically win a "fight" that thats not the epitome of all possible fun.

Those are just my values.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2016-02-17 20:57:27 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You idly wondered, "Would there even be camps?"

I answered that question.


Yup. You did. Rather well.
Takari
Resource Warring
#130 - 2016-02-17 20:57:28 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Takari wrote:
I'm lazy but your points were No Concord, No points/scrams, change PVE?


The point was really thinking about slaying sacred cows and seeing if they made good hamburger.


I don't see what good it does to speak in metaphor. I am absolutely the wrong audience as I cannot draw any relevant connection between beef and spaceship combat.

Bring data, bring ideas, bring big picture grandiose thought experiments and I'll read and consider. I may not agree but I'll read and think.


"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2016-02-17 20:58:17 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
exploration is boring, i like shooting people


You should try hunting explorers.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#132 - 2016-02-17 21:03:26 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
exploration is boring, i like shooting people


You should try hunting explorers.


i do, and miners and mission runners and pirates and whatever else i see when im hunting around but what good is hunting something if you cant make it stop?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#133 - 2016-02-17 21:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?



Problem #1: You assert, as fact, things that are decidedly less than factual. You seem to think, for instance, that stabs are the go-to counter for points. This is a common belief among new players.

In reality, WCS are an EXTREMELY situational, niche module with only a handful of use-cases. If you're commonly fitting them, you're almost certainly doing something wrong.

The thing you think is a "basically dull" hard counter is more accurately called a "rookie mistake".

Gatecamps are a situation where they're likely to be LEAST useful: There will probably be a hictor. If there isn't a hictor, there will probably be too many points anyways. If it's in null, there will probably be a static bubble, or a dictor.

In short: It probably won't work.

Good usecase for WCS: Wormhole epithals. A lone stealth bomber sitting on a POCO is not a rare occurrence. There's nothing else you could really put in those lows that will save you if it happens, but he's probably not packing enough points to tie you down.


Quote:
The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....


No, we've covered this. It's very much about both. You need to make good decisions in fitting to give yourself tactical options.

Consider, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqPBXKsKREc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i68ij_ZjahA

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#134 - 2016-02-17 21:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Fa Xian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
No you aren't a game designer...


I am. Not computer games though. Published and everything. I'd link to it, but I'm so disenchanted with the hostility and shallowness of the discourse that I can only believe people would out of spite trash my other arts. And what good would that do?

Look at you here? All anger and spite, flaming some stranger on the net. This encourages a belief in discourse?


I'm not angry or spiteful. I'm simply going by the observed facts. If you want to attribute some negative emotion to me, you can go with 'vague feeling of tiredness and disappointment'.

I've been reading essentially identical posts made by essentially identical "game designers" for 9 years now. The fact remains that it's ludicrously easy for an even minimally alert player to preserve his ship and escape from unwanted PvP. It takes a concerted, skilled and co-ordinated effort to trap someone who actively tries to avoid being caught.

Semi-AFK and actually AFK players not so much, of course, but hey. The game design issue there isn't warp scramblers; it's PvE that rewards and encourages bot-aspirant behaviour.



Anyway, it's kind of you to take an interest in my emotional well-being. And you can help! Thrill me! Inspire hope in me! Post something original.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2016-02-17 21:18:58 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
In short: It probably won't work.


You still think it's a discussion about fits or me personally.

I don't know why I enable you. Maybe you seem to me like you'd be good at talking about the original idea. But you really are enamored of talking about fits and strategy.

Stabs are pretty limited. It's really about one ship escaping from one other ship. Some good uses;

* cov ops explorers
* miners

You have to not care about range or fighting. But you see me putting them on a ship that isn't one of those and you lose it. I'm a terrible player... and will be forever. So why do you persist? Obviously I'm too stupid to learn, eh?

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2016-02-17 21:20:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The game design issue there isn't warp scramblers; it's PvE that rewards and encourages bot-aspirant behaviour.


Agreed. I mentioned it up front. Canned encounters are bad. Hence, "unknowable missions" in the title.
Memphis Baas
#137 - 2016-02-17 21:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Fa Xian wrote:
[...] the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....
To be fair, this was (and still is) a design constraint imposed by the topology of the Internet; you can't really have a dogfight / tactical gameplay with 250 ms (across the ocean) network lag (each way, so 500 ms round trip) and 1 second server tick. So they minimized the FPS / dogfight / reaction tactics aspects of the game and designed it more for grand strategy, so that the lag can be hidden.

As a result of that decision, they could implement Time Dilation, where the server tick is slowed down to even longer, to allow a battle of 800+ vs. 800+ ships to still take place and not crash the servers. 800 vs. 800 dogfight with instantaneously responsive tactics is impossible, even with today's computers; there's a reason why FPS and simulator games are limited to 32 or so. All the MMO's where the gameplay is about tactics (for example WoW and SWTOR) have instanced zones with no more than 40 players, and it still lags out.

Ultimately, in a fight between two equally-equipped battalions, strategy matters more than tactics, so... I guess I would argue that the design choices made for EVE are in tune with each other.

EDIT: In that video, those are capital ships; the regular ships used as support / defense screens are too small to be seen at that zoomed-out distance.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#138 - 2016-02-17 21:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Fa Xian wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
In short: It probably won't work.


You still think it's a discussion about fits or me personally.

I don't know why I enable you. Maybe you seem to me like you'd be good at talking about the original idea. But you really are enamored of talking about fits and strategy.


Is this some sort of ironic performance art? I responded to something YOU SAID.

You keep mewling about nobody seeing your "big picture", yet you are singularly incapable of articulating anything that extends beyond your own limited experience.

I like how, after this, you then go on to talk about... stabs. Is it okay with you if I respond to your comments about stabs? Because the comments you've made are illustrative of my overarching point re: you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Stabs are pretty limited. It's really about one ship escaping from one other ship. Some good uses;

* cov ops explorers
* miners


Putting stabs on either of those is generally a poor decision. A stabbed Covops is so flimsy it can often be blapped without the use of a point at all. Why bother?

Same goes for most miners: Anything that isn't a procurer/skiff is probably dead before it can align anyway.

There are some uses for them on the mining frigates, particularly the prospect. Any barge interested in safety would be far better off fitting a higgs rig and mining aligned.

Both miners and covops are best kept alive through situational awareness.

Quote:


You have to not care about range or fighting. But you see me putting them on a ship that isn't one of those and you lose it. I'm a terrible player... and will be forever. So why do you persist? Obviously I'm too stupid to learn, eh?



There's nothing wrong with being a terrible player. There is something wrong with claiming the game needs to change based on opinions you've formed while playing terribly.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#139 - 2016-02-17 21:56:20 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
"Odd. Who sits on a gate? Why? For money? I suppose that was good payout for them. What a yawdry way to make profits. I could have gotten away if I cared. Different fit, different path, different time..."

See I don't care. Its just a game.


The 700m hauler loss before you made this thread says otherwise. About the not caring.
The claims you're a game designer but won't prove it because being challenged makes you *sadfaec*, that's amazing.
You're sounding like a boxer who got flattened and is now suggesting ways boxing could be changed to be more interesting for all concerned.
"I coulda dodged... I coulda won that... I coulda been a contender!"



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#140 - 2016-02-17 21:56:21 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
It's pretty arrogant to say that, eh? I mean I don't even make games like this. I'm not very qualified. But it's what you do in this situation as a designer? What would I do differently?

I tried to outline it above. But the best I can do is principles. Obviously, they're doing pretty well without semi-pro/amateur help from me.

But, I thought, it would be a lot like exploration. You'd have to ambush people doing stuff in space. A hard counter is basically dull; you point, I stab. Those don't require thought. Or choice. Like say, how close do you orbit? Do you switch ammo?

The biggest thing I've learned in the thread is that the game isn't really meant to be about on grid during encounter choices - what I call tactics. It's mostly meant to be strategic. That's cool... seems a bit flat maybe, but hey....


I asked you a question based on your first post. No more, no less. You said the use of points is fundamentally bad game design. Fine, so you're saying an integral part of a game that's been hailed as one of the best in the business for over a decade is based on fundamentally bad design. I simply asked you to back that up.

There's a lot more to points/stabs. First, this is an MMO, so fly with friends. Use ewar, jam them, neut them out, have a fit where you can burn out of range, etc. Get creative. You're flying mainly in lowsec, that's more dangerous space than most of null right now. Get in a fleet and get creative with tactics.

The game has a huge exploration side to it. I solo roamed through WHs/deep null in a buzzard for a long time with one character, and only lost one in the last year and a half. There's a ton of strategy to that.

Fa Xian wrote:
Think about how their play style could be more enjoyable for them.


You called me arrogant but then actually are telling other people what is enjoyable to them when playing a game? Really?