EVE General Discussion

It only costs 1.8 trillion ISK to fully train a character. Say training full main and support skills for a Titan would cost 100b per character, there are plenty of people in EVE who have that kind of money to whipe their *ss with. There are alliances in the game who could throw 100b at creating a Titan pilot out of thin air without so much as breaking a sweat.

Time and ISK are never a limiting factor in EVE. Because there's always someone sitting in their mothers basement with ungodly amounts of spare time, and there's always someone who has insane amounts of money in the bank (real or fake). Iron Bank's little stunt proves that perfectly.

How is that an advantage?

First off, if this gets locked for ranting I will be very disappointed in ISD. This is articulate, reasonably polite, and backed with obvious thought by the author, agree with it or not.

And, onto the meat of the argument, I don't agree. Now, a disclaimer here: this is really a personal musing based on my experience and watching a few friends I brought into the game learn to play. I claim no special insight into CCP's internal decision making process (CCP Sreegs found all my hidden cameras in Reykjavik years ago) so what I think may represent only a tiny minority of the playerbase. However by demographics I am right in the middle of the "average" part of the curve for age for an Eve player so maybe I'm utterly typical. No way to really tell.

I've been in the game since 2009, but I can still remember what it was like to be that new player sitting there and looking at my (old cathode ray tube lol) screen and knowing there was a massive and incredible world of fun out there in INTERNET SPACE but it was months before I could really do a lot of it. And this is from somebody in Goonswarm from day 5 who had what was then the biggest and best newbie friendly organization in the game to help me along.

So that being said, why am I still here? In large part its because when I decided to get into Eve I had just walked away from WoW because it was just endless iterations of enter raid, perform synchronized dance routine with guild, get purple thing, and log out. After a couple years that stopped being fun. Eve promised infinite challenge, something it has so far delivered on. But did I enjoy the waiting, the sitting and looking at my T1 fit Incursus and knowing I would be at a horrible disadvantage if I left my big fleets? Nope. Did I try anyhow and die in a fire? Yep. Would I have walked away from Eve in disgust if it had been easier? Nope, because I was in it for the long haul. I would have just had a lot more great fights and hilarious failures a lot sooner. As opposed to pathetic failures because I didn't have Advanced Weapons Upgrades V trained so I couldn't fit that high end armor rep...

For the folks who don't take that approach may just not be meant for Eve. My background is military, and there is something that gets put in the final box on an awful lot of recruit's files as they are shown the door. It is the words "Failure to Adapt" and it means just exactly what it sounds like, that the military lifestyle and the challenges it presents are different from anything else somebody would have likely encountered in life and not everyone can make the adjustment. Eve may be a computer game, but compared to the rest of the MMO market, or even the rest of the gaming market, it is a very different and very harsh place. Not everyone is going to make the cut. Those that will have more reasons for their success than "I had to wait a year to not suck, but I enjoyed it." To pretend that fast SP, by grinding Isk or spending real life money, has very much to do with what makes people play Eve is to sell the playerbase short.

I am trying to understand and empathize with the drama over this issue but alas I'm failing.
In WOW you could "power level" through the content in order to access the higher content that your friends or guild were enjoying and you weren't able to participate in.
Unfortunately since SP is time gated there was no way to rush through the levels.
If we equate SP with Levels and for example PVP as Raids then SP trading is simply a form of "power leveling" for those who choose it and to their credit CCP found a way to also generate revenue from it. For vets it's a way to generate ISK from unwanted or unneeded SP.
I say good job for removing silly barriers to content.
I get the "special snowflake" thing but it strikes me as an emotional reaction rather than a rational one.
More options seems good to me.

I read the full 3000 word intro post arguments/conclusions and while factual and poignant for much, some of the conclusions seem lacking both real world results and feel like they might be missing logical conclusiveness.

I don't agree that Skill Point trading will be any kind of end of the game for the game. It will continue to be a dump for SP's that go to veteran characters that have excessive SP's to begin with, but really, newbies with a few dents, dings and some experience under their belts will be able to benefit from SP Injection. So to say that newbies don't benefit is rather sweeping. I'm also not certain CCP only targeted newbies with the program, it looks more like it was targeted for Vets to fix some of their toons and keep the game interesting to them... while helping the 2-5 month newbie to advance faster. Yeah, if you're rich you can do it quicker but that's an extreme minority of players that can benefit from that, most of us can't afford the luxury, which the OP pointed out.

It sounds like the OP thinks that CCP has turned EVE into a cash cow and is just milking it while feeding it grass. If true, then yeah, EVE will die as any game not actively improved over time will fail to summon new blood. I'm not so sure it's true. Most gaming companies just aren't that dumb and do watch their competition. Odds are, this is on CCP's mind all the time and they are either working on some great new things *OR* they feel locked in by an inflexible player base and believe me, reading the stuff I read here demonstrates some truth to that condition.

As a game designer and game player (of many genres, not just computer), as well as being a programmer, I can tell you I see the struggle that many CCP devs seem to be wrestling with and they aren't all game code based.

The game in and of itself probably needs a good refresh. It has artifacts left over from past 'improvements' or previous gameplay that is no longer really used. An example:

The Skill Point system itself seems to have lost merit and the SP Trading looks like it was an attempt to breathe life back into it, but ultimately it looks like a tool that has outlived its original purpose (whatever that was). The issue likely was an attempt to let players 'grow' into the game, but now it's just a restriction that is only a restriction to players that are ignorant of the mechanic or can't afford it one way or the other. I guess that leads to the rich vs. poor argument.

This is pretty much a red herring, rich vs. poor. First off, any player can achieve any level of in game wealth, the game is dynamic and the pie is not fixed in size. Anytime I see this argument I look at whether the system is open or closed. It only applies in closed economic systems which are very, very rare, even in video games. EVE is an open system and the market is free and allowed to grow at whatever rate the player base wants to drive it at. Can the wealthy get wealthy faster? Sure, money always makes more money more quickly but money only has two ends: saved or used. Saved money has no value for creating more wealth, it just 'is'. It has value for later 'use' but has no intrinsic merit on it's own. Money in use is money flowing, creating things, letting people get more of it, etc. etc. Money in use is not evil or destructive by nature, it can be used that way but that's a person doing that, not money. If you look at it, the vast positive use of money is creative in nature. In EVE, it's output is primarily to create destruction in combat, but it does also create systems and build economies; the end of it is generally an explosion though. CCP's money system is fine, but could use a little rebalancing across the 3 economic balance points, not much, just a smidge. It's probably where CCP shines the best at keeping balance.

If you think I just countered my two arguments, pay attention to the details. One is about SP Trading the other is about actual wealth, in game or otherwise. My contention is that I'm not seeing a huge impact on the game from SP Trading so it becomes a moot argument to link the two. If they somehow become more intertwined in actual use, then I might change my mind here.

Now, what players DO with the game, that is probably very valid, but it's also a very intangible thing to quantify. It has levels of enjoyment added on top of WHERE people spend their time of 'enjoyment'. Some companies do in depth surveys or data mining, while others have player interaction groups and feedback systems. CCP seems to do some of each but probably looks at reddit, this forum and other sources for most feedback.

All in all, to a new player like myself, the game has a ton of life in it and lots to explore. I can't speak for you vets out there that have done everything. EVERY MMO (or just 'game') has this problem, people tire of playing it. At that point, the value of the game greatly depends on your perspective:

Are you burned out? Is there really nothing left that you aren't a master of? No mountains left to conquer? New content doesn't do a thing for you?

If you answered yes to any of the questions, think about an answer to this one: If I change how I look a the game, find a new perspective on it, does the answer still stay 'yes'? If no, then change and try it again. If yes, then take a break, wait for the next big thing in EVE and see if that changes your answer. EVE will still be here a year from now... probably.

Thanks for the perspective but without data, we won't know if the game is just allowing those with high SPs or ISK to benefit from this system. Is CCP going to do a dev blog in a month or two to show everyone who is using the injectors - new accounts, newbies or vets?, who paid for them - isk transfers or from wallet?, or how - PLEX purchases with RL money or from wallet isk?

I was 50/50 on the Extractors (had some bad math that using reading skills fixed) but I would be wrong to say that the ironbank stunt soured my opinion of them. The skill injectors was supposed to be an alternative to the Character Bazaar, but at no point could you purchase a max trained char there. While many do go with the "SP isnt skills" arguement. I make a simple argument.

Take two players subbing to EVE, one is a veteran coming back to the game. Both made new accounts, one comes with a above average income, while the other one is finally able to afford a sub again. The above averaged income player Blings the account with Injectors, while the other player is skilling normally. The richer player undocks in a faction/officer fit RL Orthrus with a fit he shifted from a friend, no longer limited by SP and Plexed the isk, this made it possible. The other undocks in a rifter as he is limited by SP progression. They wind up engaged solo vs each other. In the "SP doesn't matter Skill does" scenario, that new account in a Rifter will demolish the Orthrus, the Vet will have a shiny Kill mail. The argument of "The vet would know not to engage" is not valid here. It's SP vs Skill scenario. No chance is that Rifter winning.

Yes, all of us older players had dealt with the SP time gate, no one will argue it sucks. But eve is also not WoW or any MOBA. Eve was always pushed as the long term game where your decisions matter. Each skill you train, each choice you made had its reward or its risk. While Time locked by SP did not get us in the shiniest of ships instantly, it did teach us how to fly the smaller ships and migrate with SP into the larger ones with also the knowledge that we had the piloting for the most part behind us for it. If the system behind eve that made it what it is, is changing in such drastic ways with how injectors are. Why not just remove SP all together. Player milestones are no longer celebrated. Much of what made eve the environment of what it was, is vanishing, most of it with great changes. But Injectors are not helping new players. They are further dividing them and hurting the new player Experience.

It was not to long ago that many alliances and corporations had SP requirements in order to apply and join. The big push on the New Player Experience reduced this a lot, seeing the big blocs openly bringing new players in and showing them they can make a difference opened a large world to newly subbed players. The SP Injectors are going to bring a nasty side of EVE's past back. The New Player Experience will be replaced with the New Player SP requirements. You have a risk of alliances and corporations going back to the old mentality of X-SP to join. With Skill Injectors no reason except player wealth limits newbros from meeting said requirements. I know players who dropped a few hundred boosting characters up to 17-18M SP only a few months into EVE.

How well will the New Player Experience turn out if suddenly recruitment for new players turns into a minimum SP to join, now that the new mechanics make this possible? "we'd love to accept you, we are very well known to be New player friendly, there are great benefits for being in X group, only requirement is that your character has 15M SP, You can purchase SP on the market, just use PLEX. Submit your API and application once completed"

I am not stating rip them from EVE, but I do see them turning into a larger Divide of players capable of SPing up accounts Vs those who are unable to. As well as those now needing to meet a resurging SP requirement now that its possible. We already have the "elitists/bittervets vs newbros" now it could become splintered further with a paygate. The Bazaar while enabling characters to be purchased maintained a balance between purchasing an account vs creating an entirely new emerging meta that might segregate newbros behind more of a paywall. While we are in the new crack stage of these and it has yet to mellow to an established metric, these are concerns I see becoming Relevant.

Clash of clans "kugh" you want more proof? See every damn facebook "game". How many people to many! You think eve is difference now than clash of clans? think again.

However like i say before in a other post. SP do not make you pro. So the worries is not you but the guy that have no clue how to play there eve. So its more like 50/50 debate. One hand people can stop using subscribe and waiting for ccp to release something new. And then come back buy some injectors en be done with it. In the other hand you can still use the old system compare to the new system "injectors" it cost you less. Unless you got to many isk to waste.

So people think SP matters! But it is not. And no iam not happy with it.

All the SP that was not being used and subsequently sold is then put to better use by, in this scenario, new players in blinged out pirate cruisers, puts more targets in space.

There is no way this is not a good thing.

only a sh*t tier corp/alliance would advertise themselves as newbro-friendly and impose minimum SP. if that problem arises then newbros are more than welcome to join half of GalMil corps in FW, where most of us fly frigs to cruisers and sometimes BS. a day-1 dude can fly an atron/web/scram/mwd/bulkheads and/or maulus/dampener/mwd/bulkheads - which is very useful in any fleet espeically in FW meta/plex fights.

on the other hand, for veteran corps like PL, they're already doing this even before. even your alliance do this, why is it not a problem then than now? corps that require minimum SP on recruits before will still do now, while corps that doesn't, like us, will still not.