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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: Skills, Modules and Refitting

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Author
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2016-02-12 18:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: galtest12345
That "card game" analogy hurt my brain so much.

Seriously, you're missing the mark here: Bringing your fleet and all the fitting to the field is your deck, how you fit and choices you make in refitting is you playing particular cards in your deck.

You cannot change your entire deck (the fleet composition, modules you brought) mid-game, but what kind of card game makes you bring and play all your cards in one big hand?

What boring ass card game do you envision, where you show your cards, the enemy shows his, you declare the winner and then that's it. Wow that's 13 seconds of card gaming spent, now what?

By removing refitting you are making it so only certain doctrines become viable, you cannot counter or adapt in the field so you have to ensure your fleet is of sufficient cookie cutter status to meet the most likely enemy. That is removing choice, removing tactics. This is what it was like before, refitting in combat unlocked SO many avenues for small gangs, fleets, single players, etc. to try well thought through tactics.

Imagine the Rooks n Kings videos with no combat refitting .. Oh wait, half of them wouldn't exist, because that small group would not have been able to pull off the stunts they did without it.

Not to mention the implications for people in PVE, who now have to just bring X ship and that's it because you cannot refit with a bastion module going - PVE, shooting red crosses, is verging on mind numbing already and you are eliminating a creative aspect of it, and murdering a ton of good, fun fits that people use.



I realise you aren't going to change your mind because you believe that "committing and then being blown up or blowing the enemy up in a mind numbing hit F1-F4" is the best form or fleet warfare and that all the fights should be won in EFT before hand, but seriously .. you are wrong.
ddred
Orta.
#82 - 2016-02-12 18:52:12 UTC
Would the developers consider another bonus to the caldari and amarr FAXes over the current capacitor boost? I feel like with the new meta of capital capacitor boosters and such that are going to be introduced, that it is going to be a pretty meaningless bonus on the hull to have +25% capacitor capacity.

The only thing it'll provide is a moderate increase in cap regen (which might be meaningless if using capital capacitor boosters) while making it more difficult to cap coast in mid-level gang engagements.

What about 5% resistance to energy neutralizers per level or something like that?
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#83 - 2016-02-12 18:58:22 UTC
ddred wrote:
Would the developers consider another bonus to the caldari and amarr FAXes over the current capacitor boost? I feel like with the new meta of capital capacitor boosters and such that are going to be introduced, that it is going to be a pretty meaningless bonus on the hull to have +25% capacitor capacity.

The only thing it'll provide is a moderate increase in cap regen (which might be meaningless if using capital capacitor boosters) while making it more difficult to cap coast in mid-level gang engagements.

What about 5% resistance to energy neutralizers per level or something like that?


I am not disagreeing with you but if you have noticed CCP is moving to the idea of a larger cap pool and less cap stability to logistic ships.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2016-02-12 19:02:15 UTC
Custos Stratos wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Custos Stratos wrote:
What if we already have all the Fighter skills? Do we have to skill the new skills as well or do we also get Light and Support Fighters?

you have to train the new skills for the new fighters, why would you expect anything else



Because the Fighter Bomber skill also becomes the new Heavy Fighter skill.

I would expect players to get the Light and Support Fighter skill at the lvl they have Fighter skill now tbh.

that skill is changing name and still applying to the exact same thing

jesus, the entitlement mentality of people where every little change must be accompanied with gift-wrapped SP that newbies will not get is insane
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2016-02-12 19:07:10 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
Doomsday immunity. Did I read that correct?

Also, I can refit a new one after 20 sec cycle is over, and start a new cycle - is that legit? It makes my ship almost invulnerable if I click fast enough. Which makes me think I've got something wrong.

I think once a module is burnt out, you need to refit it with services. And if you have a weapons timer, you can't do that. If you're job is to literally DD troll Titans, then maybe.

Alright, it makes my ship invulnerable if I manage to de-agress.
Still sounds like BS.

Edit: Last time my supercarrier died, it lasted a lot longer than 60 second under focus fire. And its loss I could predict maybe 15 minutes (!) in advance. So de-agressing is not that hard.

i don't know about your titan, but MY TITAN would not last long being in hull only even if it was invulnerable for 20 of every 60 seconds without crazy amounts of on-field reps
Sapegu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2016-02-12 19:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sapegu
Will FAX get the role in capital escalating in WH?
BEcause we must decide to keep or not the carriers and get the new FAX if needed.
ddred
Orta.
#87 - 2016-02-12 19:11:32 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
ddred wrote:
Would the developers consider another bonus to the caldari and amarr FAXes over the current capacitor boost? I feel like with the new meta of capital capacitor boosters and such that are going to be introduced, that it is going to be a pretty meaningless bonus on the hull to have +25% capacitor capacity.

The only thing it'll provide is a moderate increase in cap regen (which might be meaningless if using capital capacitor boosters) while making it more difficult to cap coast in mid-level gang engagements.

What about 5% resistance to energy neutralizers per level or something like that?


I am not disagreeing with you but if you have noticed CCP is moving to the idea of a larger cap pool and less cap stability to logistic ships.


Right, but the amarr and caldari fax already have the largest capacitors over the other 2 faxes. The bonus is adding +25% capacitor while the other faxes are getting cap booster bonuses.

Which one is more useful? The capacitor booster one. This makes it harder for the FAX to get to jump cap (thus harder to cap coast and such compared to other FAXes). The bonus only aids a cap stable setup using relays, cccs and rechargers. But if this method of fitting triage becomes outdated because of capacitor boosters then the bonus becomes meaningless. Thus a neutraliser reistance / reflect bonus would be a lot more useful or some other bonus that adds some kind of utility to their intended role.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#88 - 2016-02-12 19:46:00 UTC
ddred wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
ddred wrote:
Would the developers consider another bonus to the caldari and amarr FAXes over the current capacitor boost? I feel like with the new meta of capital capacitor boosters and such that are going to be introduced, that it is going to be a pretty meaningless bonus on the hull to have +25% capacitor capacity.

The only thing it'll provide is a moderate increase in cap regen (which might be meaningless if using capital capacitor boosters) while making it more difficult to cap coast in mid-level gang engagements.

What about 5% resistance to energy neutralizers per level or something like that?


I am not disagreeing with you but if you have noticed CCP is moving to the idea of a larger cap pool and less cap stability to logistic ships.


Right, but the amarr and caldari fax already have the largest capacitors over the other 2 faxes. The bonus is adding +25% capacitor while the other faxes are getting cap booster bonuses.

Which one is more useful? The capacitor booster one. This makes it harder for the FAX to get to jump cap (thus harder to cap coast and such compared to other FAXes). The bonus only aids a cap stable setup using relays, cccs and rechargers. But if this method of fitting triage becomes outdated because of capacitor boosters then the bonus becomes meaningless. Thus a neutraliser reistance / reflect bonus would be a lot more useful or some other bonus that adds some kind of utility to their intended role.


I get what you are saying I think CCP are implementing capital cap batteries so with those fit you will get your intended resistance. With all ships getting a ship and corp hanger I am not sure if FAX will be required to go along with dreads like carriers do currently to provide refitting assistance so I am not sure if cap boosting up to jump cap will be as big a requirement on these as it currently is on dreads.
Alexis Nightwish
#89 - 2016-02-12 19:56:12 UTC
CCP you are hearby charged with two counts of complete and utter bullshit.

Count 1; Special snowflake status for carrier pilots.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Force Auxiliaries will instead use a renamed Carrier Skill.
Amarr Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Caldari Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Gallente Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Minmatar Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
So now THREE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHIP CLASSES will use the SAME ******* SKILLBOOK? Carriers, Supercarriers, and Force Aux? Bullshit to the highest degree!


Count 2; ******* over WH Marauder pilots because you're incapable of fixing a K-space problem.
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Our currently proposed solution is that you can’t refit with a weapons timer. Meaning, if you are aggressing a player, or assisting a player ship who is aggressing a player, you can't refit for 60 seconds.
So as long as I don't aggress another player in my Marauder, I'm fine to refit? Oh, wait, no. CCP loves making bad decisions for bad reasons.

Outside of Thera (which no one brings their Marauder to anyway) there are no stations in WH space! No stations means no station games. And the sad thing is it's not hard to fix either:

  1. Give players the capability to look outside the station while docked so they can ascertain if it is safe to undock. You know, the same damn functionality that Citadels will have?
  2. Make all stations kickout stations.

There, now you have no excuse to continue with this bullshittery.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#90 - 2016-02-12 20:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Syri Taneka
Three things:

1) I think you mean 1% per level to gang links? So either 5% Role Bonus or someone put those bits under the wrong heading.

2) Swap the Mid/Low slot layouts on the Minmatar/Caldari and Amarr/Gallente ships. This is necessary to be in line with other ship classes which feature tank resistance bonuses.

3) Change the no-refit clause to trigger on PVP-timers specifically, and not PVE timers. This preserves PVE refit gameplay *cough* Marauders *cough*) while still dealing with the problem of infinitely-adaptable jackhattery in PVP situations.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#91 - 2016-02-12 20:08:30 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP you are hearby charged with two counts of complete and utter bullshit.

Count 1; Special snowflake status for carrier pilots.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Force Auxiliaries will instead use a renamed Carrier Skill.
Amarr Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Caldari Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Gallente Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
Minmatar Carrier Bonus (per skill level):
So now THREE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHIP CLASSES will use the SAME ******* SKILLBOOK? Carriers, Supercarriers, and Force Aux? Bullshit to the highest degree!


How is this different from what we have now?

Carriers skillbook (racial) unlocks: Carrier and Supercarrier. Add Triage skillbook to unlock Triage use of Carrier, which is almost a different ship class compared to a Combat Carrier setup. The new FAX taking a) Carriers skill and b) Triage skill to be useful really just solidifies that technicality.
Erasmus Grant
0rizen Irregulars
Sev3rance
#92 - 2016-02-12 20:14:29 UTC
Shame that CCP decided to go this route. Now that we do not have the FAX as a skillpoint sink. Veteran accounts will become skillpoint farms.


Let me get Reddit community to pitchfork about you not converting Outpost into Citadels.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#93 - 2016-02-12 20:16:06 UTC
So it seems heavy fighters are being limited to supers I was wondering what role carriers are ment to fill that isn't overshadowed by dreads or sub caps?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2016-02-12 20:39:41 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
So it seems heavy fighters are being limited to supers I was wondering what role carriers are ment to fill that isn't overshadowed by dreads or sub caps?

Supposedly a versatile support platform. Can switch between (or run simultaneously) fighters and ewar squads. There's also the benefit of being able to position the support as needed, they mentioned at Vegas that they would be able to pre-position fighters and target locks would not be needed. So j could send fighters over to a fight while remaining a relatively safe distance away. Also don't know how capital ewar will pan out. It has potential to be a carrier specialty.
Jack Roulette
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2016-02-12 20:47:28 UTC
Please tell me this doesn't mean FAUX and Carrier have the same prereqs now. Why in the ever loving F@#$ would I want to train all those drone skills to fly a logi ship?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#96 - 2016-02-12 20:49:53 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
So it seems heavy fighters are being limited to supers I was wondering what role carriers are ment to fill that isn't overshadowed by dreads or sub caps?

Supposedly a versatile support platform. Can switch between (or run simultaneously) fighters and ewar squads. There's also the benefit of being able to position the support as needed, they mentioned at Vegas that they would be able to pre-position fighters and target locks would not be needed. So j could send fighters over to a fight while remaining a relatively safe distance away. Also don't know how capital ewar will pan out. It has potential to be a carrier specialty.


i guess my confusion was when they announced it carriers were only going to be able to have so many of one type of fighter type if this is still the same i feel it will just make it so that they are gimped in doing dps or are gimped in doing e-war. it made seance when there were 3 types to chose from but with two there is much less choice and it just comes down to slightly more e-war or slightly more dps

has that changed?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#97 - 2016-02-12 20:51:01 UTC
Jack Roulette wrote:
Please tell me this doesn't mean FAUX and Carrier have the same prereqs now. Why in the ever loving F@#$ would I want to train all those drone skills to fly a logi ship?


you have always had to train them to fly a capital logi ship soo nothing has really changed
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#98 - 2016-02-12 20:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
We don't really know much yet about how the new carriers + fighter squadrons will work out and what their real roles and usage will be. They sound interesting, and there's potential there, but for now it's "wait and see".

As for this new way of handling the transition: well, I was ok with the old one too, but this lets me fly more stuff without more skill training so yay, I guess P. Seems like a smart move, though being able to fly two totally different cap ship types with one skill is a bit weird (when Dreads still require a separate skill). Oh well.

Fax stats look interesting. Not sure what to think about them yet, or which one(s) to go for. Will need to analyze a bit more.

Waiting for the new carrier stats, now
Jack Roulette
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2016-02-12 20:59:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Jack Roulette wrote:
Please tell me this doesn't mean FAUX and Carrier have the same prereqs now. Why in the ever loving F@#$ would I want to train all those drone skills to fly a logi ship?


you have always had to train them to fly a capital logi ship soo nothing has really changed

If "because it's always been that way" is the only answer you have you might as well just drool on yourself and tell me how much you like turtles. Because that's the most ******** answer to ANY question.

What benefit does training fighter skills provide for a logi ship that can't field fighters? None. It would be the most nonsensical prereq in the game. It would be the equivalent of requiring gunnery V to use a mining barge.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2016-02-12 20:59:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
So it seems heavy fighters are being limited to supers I was wondering what role carriers are ment to fill that isn't overshadowed by dreads or sub caps?

Supposedly a versatile support platform. Can switch between (or run simultaneously) fighters and ewar squads. There's also the benefit of being able to position the support as needed, they mentioned at Vegas that they would be able to pre-position fighters and target locks would not be needed. So j could send fighters over to a fight while remaining a relatively safe distance away. Also don't know how capital ewar will pan out. It has potential to be a carrier specialty.


i guess my confusion was when they announced it carriers were only going to be able to have so many of one type of fighter type if this is still the same i feel it will just make it so that they are gimped in doing dps or are gimped in doing e-war. it made seance when there were 3 types to chose from but with two there is much less choice and it just comes down to slightly more e-war or slightly more dps

has that changed?

Not as I'm aware. Think of it this way: look at all the drones a carrier can have. Small/med/heavy, EWAR (webs/damps/neuts/etc), and remote repair. While doubt RR will make it on that list, there is plenty of potential for the new groups to be effective. So, slightly more would be a premature assumption. With as many changes as they've done recently, the phrase "CCP won't..." Is less of a worry to me. Take that as you will.