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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: Skills, Modules and Refitting

First post
Author
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#61 - 2016-02-12 16:33:18 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Nerfing combat refitting on triage seems to be a pretty big "hard cap" on them...

it's simply "If X dps greater than Y tank then die if if EHP/Sec loss is less EHP remaining divided by time in triage remaining" with no possibility of player reactions or skill to change it... I personally don't think that's a great mechanic for what is a player-skill intensive ship.



It seems like they've tried to mitigate this with the introduction of the new capital modules which dont require refitting to use (ancillaries, scripted armor hardener, emergency damage control). To be fair too, if you're taking the brunt of the enemy DPS it should be trivial to just ride out the 60 seconds you have from your aggro timer to gain access to refitting once again while letting subcap logi or your other triage in the classic triage pair start repping the fleet.
Centurax
Eve Engineering Authority
Eve Engineering
#62 - 2016-02-12 16:34:36 UTC
Some really cool stuff to look forward too nice work.

Very disappointed that Carriers will not get to use Heavy Fighters (Fighter Bombers), that was one of the changes I had wanted to happen and it looked like it would in some of the early information on the change, would make Carriers more interesting if they could use them as well, and not only be the domain of Super Carriers and Citadels.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2016-02-12 16:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Confirming that triple/double CASB fits will be cancer?

Also, anyone think that capital cap boosters will become lifeblood for cap fleets? Might have to have combat care packages if you're really good.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2016-02-12 16:46:43 UTC
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
Doomsday immunity. Did I read that correct?

Also, I can refit a new one after 20 sec cycle is over, and start a new cycle - is that legit? It makes my ship almost invulnerable if I click fast enough. Which makes me think I've got something wrong.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2016-02-12 16:50:11 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
Doomsday immunity. Did I read that correct?

Also, I can refit a new one after 20 sec cycle is over, and start a new cycle - is that legit? It makes my ship almost invulnerable if I click fast enough. Which makes me think I've got something wrong.

I think once a module is burnt out, you need to refit it with services. And if you have a weapons timer, you can't do that. If you're job is to literally DD troll Titans, then maybe.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#66 - 2016-02-12 16:50:31 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
A 1% role bonus to links is trash. This means 3 of 4 role bonuses are completely wasted. No one will ever use these for links when they can fly a covert nullified almost unprobable T3 for half the price and get a 10% bonus with defensive subsystems at 5. Let alone a CS with 15% bonuses.

If your aim was to get a 5% bonus, then make it a 5% role bonus, or a 1% per level of something skill bonus.


No one would ever use them while a Command Ship would overthrow it, or with a titans natural bonus ontop of CS.

The only time these would ever get used is blops drop if you dont have a CS vessel of some kind giving bonuses. Even then you are looking at one; the bonus to remote shield/armor. Because if you have to use the resist, you're in ****.


Agreed. I was using the provided stats to make a suggestion I thought was in-line with the devs' intent.

[hr]

I'm a little confused about the fighter(-bomber) skill changes.
Quote:

  • You will only require the Fighters skill to use Light, Support and Heavy Fighters.
  • The Fighter-Bombers skill will be renamed to Heavy Fighters, and give bonuses to heavy fighter squadrons. Heavy Fighter squadrons will only be launch-able by Supercarriers.

Effectively, fighter-bombers are becoming heavy fighters. The above says only the fighters skill is required to use them. Then it goes on to say the fighter-bombers skill will be renamed to heavy fighters. Does this mean the heavy fighters skill will only give an optional bonus to heavy fighters?

Also, I agree that disallowing refitting while one has a combat timer is an elegant solution to combat refitting.


The fighter skill needs to be at 1 in order to inject to skill books to use light,heavy, support fighters. So you only need Fighters to use them. It follows the same structure Tree as its in. The drone skill is only required to use drones. You need to train Light, medium, heavy to use them tho.

Inject fighter book and take to 1: then the prereqs for lights,supports,heavy are filled and you can inject and train them.
Each class book will buff that class fighter.

Same as it is now with drones :)

The big question is.. What will happen to our wonderful fighters. Will we still be able to launch them from our capitals OR as noticeable in other blogs, They look to become a Citadel only weapon as cits can't use squads but can use fighters.

BTW this totally needs to be renamed to Reworking some Capital ships. The hell is happening to our Rorqual, some news besides the hints a eve down order would be nice. It is.. a Capital ship you know.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2016-02-12 16:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Rowells wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
Doomsday immunity. Did I read that correct?

Also, I can refit a new one after 20 sec cycle is over, and start a new cycle - is that legit? It makes my ship almost invulnerable if I click fast enough. Which makes me think I've got something wrong.

I think once a module is burnt out, you need to refit it with services. And if you have a weapons timer, you can't do that. If you're job is to literally DD troll Titans, then maybe.

Alright, it makes my ship invulnerable if I manage to de-agress.
Still sounds like BS.

Edit: Last time my supercarrier died, it lasted a lot longer than 60 second under focus fire. And its loss I could predict maybe 15 minutes (!) in advance. So de-agressing is not that hard.
Revy Loution
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#68 - 2016-02-12 16:58:07 UTC
I mentioned this at Eve Vegas, and a few pilots thought the idea might have merit.

Instead of refitting capitals during combat, maybe have dual use modules with long cycle times? For example, a low slot module that gives bonuses similar to a magnetic stabilizer when off, but when activated works like an adaptive nano. Or a midslot that provides cap regen while off, and works as a shield boost amp when on.
Chloe Frost
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#69 - 2016-02-12 16:59:44 UTC
As far as converting carriers to FAX if they have a triage module fit: What happens to the fittings on the carrier? More specifically i suppose, what happens to the rigs on it? Especially if it has large rigs. Does the newly given FAX retain the rigs/fittings? Or are they just going to be put in the station with the drones/fighters and the rigs destroyed?
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#70 - 2016-02-12 17:09:13 UTC
My question is, if two pilots are doing PvE in carriers, or nestors, why should they be disallowed from refitting off each other if they are aggressing each other?

There's numerous people out in null who smartbomb rat, and use carriers to do so. Why penalise that refitting mechanic if it's one guy with two alts doing a site?

Sure if either of the carriers gets aggressed, he can't refit. That makes sense. Then if the other carrier assists the first one that can't also refit because it inherits the timer, also makes sense.

I'd say maybe consider making corporation combat, where legal, to not incur a weapons timer. I can't think of any situation where that doesn't make sense so long as absolutely no actual "combat" is taking place, wherein someone outside the corporation would always be involved and thus give everyone an actual "weapons timer" that relates to combat.

Just a though (or several).
FearlessLittleToaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2016-02-12 17:23:10 UTC
Mr. Phantom, Thank you for the clear explanation of why combat refitting is getting removed. This sort of clear, direct statement of design goals goes a long way towards fostering constructive discussion and allowing the players to contribute to the fullest of their ability. Instead of being able to call you the love child of Hitler and Stalin because you changed something and HATE HATE HATE we have to consider your argument on it's merit and then respond accordingly. Well, at least the more reasonable among us do. Others will just get on with the hating, but you can't win them all.

Also, if you are in fact the love child of Hitler and Stalin, does this provide a valid basis for critiquing your came design choices? Do you have superpowers, and if so what are they?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2016-02-12 17:23:55 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer
Doomsday immunity. Did I read that correct?

Also, I can refit a new one after 20 sec cycle is over, and start a new cycle - is that legit? It makes my ship almost invulnerable if I click fast enough. Which makes me think I've got something wrong.

I think once a module is burnt out, you need to refit it with services. And if you have a weapons timer, you can't do that. If you're job is to literally DD troll Titans, then maybe.

Alright, it makes my ship invulnerable if I manage to de-agress.
Still sounds like BS.

Edit: Last time my supercarrier died, it lasted a lot longer than 60 second under focus fire. And its loss I could predict maybe 15 minutes (!) in advance. So de-agressing is not that hard.

Don't forget, it's a capital mod. So how many you can burn through could be limited by size.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#73 - 2016-02-12 17:26:13 UTC
My thoughts on capital boosters is the size of this charges. Is it finally time to introduce ammo bays to capital ships?
Mo'Chuisle
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#74 - 2016-02-12 17:28:28 UTC
The paragraph about refitting is high up there amongst the dumbest things I have ever seen in a dev blog so congratulations to team five-0 for that!

A refitting timer of 60 seconds means that a faux is a suicide machine against any competent opponent, and NOT just in large fights, but even more important in small fights too, unless the base stats of the faux' get made so amazing that in return they are extremely overpowered. You might tell yourself you are not trying to "fix" the evil boot blob, but if you release this patch like this, once again you will kill off a whole ton of content on the lower end of scale because you listened to the idiot voice in the back of your head going on about how cool you will look in the eyes of all the shouting masses. But then again, this is what CCP seems to specialize in as of late so oh well, it's your own game you are breaking vOv
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2016-02-12 17:43:04 UTC
I am not sure about the racial Bonus of the FAX... it seems to me that Amarr and Caldari area clearly superior.

The resistance bonus is much better for group fights than local rep bonus. And no one is going to use FAX for anything but group fights.
The bonus to boost amount is much better than the cycle time bonus... both effectively increase the boost amount, the cycle time bonus comes with the drawback of increased cost in cap or cap booster charges.

Not sure about cap amount vs cap booster bonus...
Annia Aurel
J-CORP
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2016-02-12 18:09:52 UTC
What's with the T2 variants of capital modules mentioned earlier?
T2 Guns, T2 Reppers, ... Are they still a thing?
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#77 - 2016-02-12 18:22:34 UTC
Annia Aurel wrote:
What's with the T2 variants of capital modules mentioned earlier?
T2 Guns, T2 Reppers, ... Are they still a thing?

Maby in future devblog. Blink

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#78 - 2016-02-12 18:30:39 UTC
I don't buy meaningful choices bullshit regarding combat refitting.

Pilots do have to make meaningful choices during the fight all the time, combat refitting or not. Positioning, overheating, module activation, target priorities.

With siege/triage/bastion you don't really have that choices. You aren't positioning, you don't have to worry about overheatng propmods, points and webs, you have all the time in the world to watch modules because you aren't flying anywhere.

Combat refitting does not absolve you of choices. Quite the contrary, it puts your chocies on the clock.

The problem with eve and meaningful choices is that most of them are made during ship spinning. Battles are fought and won in EFT and on dscan. Most of the time "fighting" consists of undocking the right fleet composition to counter the adversary. Apart from baiting there's very little room for actual choices on field. This is boring. This sucks.

Choices should be brought back to the battlefield. Because it puts them on timelimit. Making the right choice in dock after assessing the enemy capabilities and under generous time constraints is easy. Ergo boring. Making the right choice under pressure is hard. Ergo rewarding.

Combat refitting should stay an option at least for those ships that are stripped of the choice of positioning. They need choices apart from cycling modules on cooldown and locking on broadcasts to be fun.
Luscius Uta
#79 - 2016-02-12 18:32:17 UTC
Bonus to both shield and armour reps on Gallente and Minmatar ships is kinda silly. Yes, I know that both Thanatos and Nidhoggur have it right now, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be changed. It will make Amarr and Caldari ships superior especially when you add bonuses to repair/transfer amounts. And bonus to links is useless - even after OGB gets removed, nobody will use those ships to provide fleet bonuses.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Otorp
Apocalypse Enterprises
#80 - 2016-02-12 18:34:19 UTC
So If I read that right,

If I have a Triage module on the ship, when the changes come, The Ship will Valmorphanize into a FAX carrier.

...cant wait to see the replacement carrier bonuses then because that will influence the decision of "on or Off" with the module !

Nice ! Can't wait.