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[February] Force Auxiliary Skills

First post First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#321 - 2016-02-10 14:21:12 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Literally noone wants new skills for free. People just want to be able to do what they have already trained for.

I can fly a combat carrier, i can fly a triage carrier. they could have introduced a new ship in the carrier line without creating a new skill since both roles are preexisting.

The fact that you have to misrepresent peoples objections as wanting free stuff really speaks volumes about your purpose here.

The fact that CCP introduced these ships in the way that they did also speaks volumes.

It doesnt matter how much misguided apologetics you throw at it, you are still nothing more than a troll. People complaining about legitimate issues on a forum is what forums are for. People complaining about people complaining is a little bit sad mate.


What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere.

If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you.
Harkin Issier
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2016-02-10 14:26:11 UTC
Posting here since your ISD so helpfully locked the other thread.

You took one hull, broke it in half, and then expect people to pay you $$$ to be able to continue using both halves.

That's disgusting.

Make it so FAXes use the racial Carrier skill (newbro friendly!!!). Or give players the FAX skill in the same level as racial Carrier. Or convert Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration directly to all racial FAX skills and then eliminate TLR entirely.

Basically, give people the same roles they had pre-patch as they will have post-patch, instead of forcing them to pay you money to inject skills or a subscription fee/multiple-pilot training to keep doing stuff they have been able to do for years.

You're screwing over your playerbase and if you took 30s of thought you'd come up with ways of doing it that wouldn't hurt newer or older pilots. But you won't because $$$$$$.

I'm very disappointed.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#323 - 2016-02-10 14:29:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
CCP said they would adequately address these issues regarding skills at eve vegas. And everytime similar issues came up in the past they have always done that. I still think they will but if this goes through with this alone, then its clear something has changed. I think it is wild speculation to blame the guy who came from EA so lets just wait to see if ccp is going to address some of the many inequities clearly identified. They include:

1)Cost of skill books

2) Other skills which are clearly related to how carriers and super carriers currently work such as fighters, fighter bombers, capital remote repair cap energy transfers and tactical logi reconfig etc. (but on this issue the op does say "There'll be a dev-blog going into more details about our transition plans for Carriers, Force Auxiliaries and a bunch of other stuff, coming out later this week.")

3) Either explain why someone should have to train tactical logistical reconfiguration before they are refunded their carrier sp, or no longer keep that requirement in order to get a refund.

There may be some technical issues with some of these so it may not be possible for ccp to tell us exactly how it will shake out but they should at least give us a tip off that they are going to revisit these issues (and others? I may have missed some.)as per their representations at eve vegas that the players who trained these skills would be treated fairly.

edit: Frosty you are going backwards on this. CCP already acknowledged that their drastic cap changes would warrant some compensation for players who trained carriers. The debate is really just *how* insufficient this proposal in the op is, not whether it is in fact sufficient. CCP has a great track record of treating its players right when it comes to avoiding screwing them out of their sp. If nothing else were done this would be a large departure from their prior history.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#324 - 2016-02-10 14:38:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere.

If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you.


Wow, you really have a bug for pointless forum warrioring dont you? What you have is essentially a meaningless semantic argument.

Of those impacted by this change, of which you are almost certainly not, there is no difficulty understanding that this is a problematic precedence. Not only was a new ship not needed to create this split in purpose, but the most solid reason for the way things are panning out seems to by a cynical cash grab.

Everyone is already perfectly clear on your position here, you dont mind CCP putting people months behind where they were pre-patch and trying to persuade them to part with more cash to fix this discrepancy. Understood, you are a fanboy who sees a semantic approach to what you think is a valid argument and grabs it.

We do mind what CCP is trying to do and what it represents for the future of EVE if at any time a ship that can be used in multiple ways it can be split up and half taken from us and repackaged and commodified.
Robert Dalentis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#325 - 2016-02-10 14:42:31 UTC
It is really upsetting to see a blatant cash grab like this.

Certainly grandfathering us into these skills is a poor idea (screws over newbros who don't have the skills) but hot damn, it really is not in line with other capitals for us to train this much to simply get to the point carrier pilots were at before... the multipliers on the proposed skills are ridiculously high. You're telling me I have to train 3 14x skills to get to the same point I've barely reached? plus another 14x skill per race? Plus another 500m for the privilege of getting to choose what I can fly PER RACE?

This announcement coinciding with the release of extractors/injectors (and the intentionally poor aurum pricing to make us pay even more for them) really makes me think CCP doesn't give a damn about "eve forever" and is just after a quick buck. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Lack of intelligence officer

Memphis Baas
#326 - 2016-02-10 14:43:47 UTC
Maybe we're thinking about this the wrong way:

Technically, the Force Auxiliary ships are NOT carriers; they don't have fighters (the drones they have are for defense).

It may be less expensive (skillpoint wise) to transform dreadnoughts to force auxiliaries. Or it may be more expensive.

But they could make the Force Auxiliary ship the super-dreadnought, as far as the ship progression.

Clearly they want to take away repair capability from the carriers and super-carriers. Why not just rename the carrier triage skill to whatever the new carriers will use, and treat the change as a complete change to carriers. And treat the new Force Auxiliary ships as new ships, super-dreadnought size, with capital remote repairs instead of guns. Fauxes are going to need super-levels of tank if they're supposed to be 1 per fleet, always primaried, self-repair only.

Disclaimer: this is probably a stupid idea; I usually have such ideas. Feel free to argue against it, call me stupid, whatever; I won't mind.
Veetor Nara
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#327 - 2016-02-10 14:52:03 UTC
I disagree with this. If I had fighters trained to IV, I would like to have all the fighter skills at IV - and if I had Amarr Carrier IV and Gallente Carrier III I would like to get Amarr FAX IV and Gallente FAX III please. Same as you did a few years ago with Scout drones -> light drones / medium drones.

Andronitis
Suddenly Carebears
#328 - 2016-02-10 15:15:19 UTC
CCP, this is a blatant cash grab that needs to be fixed before going live. Introducing new skills to gain the same utility as we already have while at the same time introducing skill injectors and mismatched Aurum prices. You are letting greed ruin a once great game. Pay to win exemplified.

-4 accounts come Citadel
Aaril
Interstellar Consulting Group
#329 - 2016-02-10 15:20:37 UTC
At this point it is a pretty safe assumption that you will not have both FAX 5 and Carrier 5 without training both. I agree with the general sentiment that this is a bad business practice, BUT...I think there may be a solution that could make both sides happy.

Essentially, take the current Carrier 5 bonuses and make them a hull bonus on the new ship. That way, even if a person chose to have FAX 1 and Carrier 1 they would lose no relative power from today. Since the ships are being split, I think most people are hoping for some new mechanics/powers to make the split interesting. This new mechanic could then be affected by the skill bonus instead.

Another similar idea is to make the ship bonuses relatively minor (similar to what they did to Drone Interfacing). For example, instead of a bonus being 10% per level, make them 5% per level. Then make sure that FAX 4 and Carrier 4 are each at the same relative power that Carrier 5 is today. There is a 5% power creep due to this idea, but I feel that is relatively minor.
Azahar Ortenegro
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2016-02-10 15:31:10 UTC
Mane Frehm wrote:
If not, then I recommend that at the time you release the Force Auxiliary ships, you refund all the SPs trained in both Carriers and Force Auxiliaries, AND you refund the 500 million ISK per skillbook for Carriers and Skillbooks. Players can then choose which they want with the necessary information at their disposal.

Do get your act together; we've seen you do much better.


This. Reimburse, and let the players choose what they want to do.
PotterPig
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#331 - 2016-02-10 15:33:08 UTC
I'm fine with having new skills to train.

My Problem with all this is only, that CCP wants me to decide, which FAX I train now, without telling me, what the FAX's stats will look like. If I start training a FAX to 5 now, I'll be ready when the patch goes live. But I dont know what racial skill to train up ...
Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#332 - 2016-02-10 15:57:00 UTC
My Reddit post on the topic. 400+ upvotes is not something to turn your nose up at. The silent majority clearly do not like the way thus change has been implemented

I'm an acquired taste.

Evan Giants
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#333 - 2016-02-10 15:58:46 UTC
So everyone called you out, CCP. They laid out arguments, all maths and ****. And why haven't you fix this **** already?
Doomchinchilla
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#334 - 2016-02-10 16:00:46 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Mane Frehm wrote:
If not, then I recommend that at the time you release the Force Auxiliary ships, you refund all the SPs trained in both Carriers and Force Auxiliaries, AND you refund the 500 million ISK per skillbook for Carriers and Skillbooks. Players can then choose which they want with the necessary information at their disposal.

Do get your act together; we've seen you do much better.


This. Reimburse, and let the players choose what they want to do.

I don't want to be refunded. I was a perfect DPS carrier AND triage carrier PRE-Citadel. I want to be a perfect DPS carrier and Triage carrier POST-Citadel. I shouldn't have to choose, I shouldn't have to spend more isk on something I already can do. I fail to see what people don't get about this.

Ignoring the fact that we need to spend isk on 2 rank 12 fighter books, and the FAX machine book. IGNORING that it's at least 3 months of training to get back to the same square I'm at now. PLUS another month for every other racial carrier that I previously trained. Despite what some of you choose to believe some of us have characters that performed a DPS role AND a logi role with triage. I shouldn't have to choose to **** myself just because CCP want my money.
Memphis Baas
#335 - 2016-02-10 16:11:06 UTC
You're also ignoring the specifics of the carrier changes, where you won't be able to be a "perfect DPS carrier pilot" because they're adding player skill into the equation: how good you are at managing your launches, returns, and refittings.

They watched too many World War 2 movies and want carrier pilots to be caught "with their pants down" like in those movies - having bombers in the air instead of defense fighters, or having all their fighters away on attack when the enemy planes arrive.

Think of it through the filter of "how CCP balances ships", the only way they believe they can achieve this "pants down" is to balance the new carriers so you're always at a disadvantage even with all skills 5. Thus, you won't be a "perfect" pilot.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#336 - 2016-02-10 16:11:56 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
EdFromHumanResources wrote:
Can you make an exception for pilots that are...I dunno..sitting in a Mothership?

If you don't inject the racial force auxiliary skill then your skillpoints will remain in the racial carrier skill.


Rancid Meatballs wrote:
What happens if a pilot logs in his carrier, and there are no SP in his carrier skill?

You can still warp / jump / dock / etc. However you won't have any bonuses from your skill, and you can't undock until you reallocate the skillpoints into the carrier skill.


Last update 2 days ago. Thanks CCP for reminding me why I quit paying you a dime of my RL money since the Odyssey expansion.

Not today spaghetti.

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#337 - 2016-02-10 16:16:43 UTC
Nice cash grab CCP!

Still betting on pink slips.
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#338 - 2016-02-10 16:39:37 UTC
Hi Mates,

We hear you! We're rethinking our Force Auxiliary skill transition plan. Please wait for the devblog for more details.


Cheers,
CCP Larrikin

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#339 - 2016-02-10 16:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Carrier and Force Auxiliary skills should cost just 10x instead of 14x. Even at 10x, they will still be more skill-intensive than Dreadnoughts with all their important support skills. Making them only 10x will greatly reduce the retraining burden for pilots who had previously had training for both fighters and triage, and now will not have it.

edit: I see the previous post. Just wanted to make sure my idea is heard.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#340 - 2016-02-10 16:42:24 UTC
So did I get that right and the fighter/fighter bomber skill will get obsolete?