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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1981 - 2016-02-08 19:27:02 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...
2 things:
1) The goal of reducing illegal character trades succeeded, but at the cost of making legal character trades ok and resultingly more common. The idea of hating character trades but accepting the "necessity" of a system which makes them more common just seems like accepting failure of principle when convenient.
2) I find it hard to believe that a 2 PLEX fee was a "byproduct." Or is a money grab just a term we use as another selective principle?


I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.

I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.

The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!

For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
Whether you like it or not isn't really the issue. What is the issue is the reality those features have created. They've been generally accepted and in the case of PLEX at least, widely patronized by players at different levels. For every aspect of new player perception about what money can do in the game, how much already exists as a result of PLEX alone?

And yes, there was another way, to simply outright ban it. But they didn't. And now we are where we are, a game with rampant RMT and character trades without EULA violation because CCP is the other party on the monetary transactions.
Memphis Baas
#1982 - 2016-02-08 19:54:09 UTC
Hamish McRothimay wrote:
DEAR CCP,
RANT ::
999 each......not 900.....but 999..... FFS... $5 Aurum packet has 900 aurum.... Can I get an extractor for that ... HELL NO

if I buy the $10 packet it has F**K***G 1950 AURUM... I get ONE F**K**G extractor with 951 left over
WHAT THE F**K CAN I BUY WITH 951 Aurum

Its like shopping at F***%$#g wallmart - 12 hotdog buns and 8 Franks please.


A sensible change would be:

$5 = 1000 aur
$10 = 2050 aur
$20 = 4100 aur
etc.

And change the extractors to 1000 aur.

Why should they do this? Because they'll save a whole lot of headache and negative publicity by having round numbers and not employing sleazy sales techniques. Because the 999 aur trick is not necessary with things as desirable as skill extractors.
Hamish McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
#1983 - 2016-02-08 19:58:03 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Hamish McRothimay wrote:
DEAR CCP,
RANT ::
999 each......not 900.....but 999..... FFS... $5 Aurum packet has 900 aurum.... Can I get an extractor for that ... HELL NO

if I buy the $10 packet it has F**K***G 1950 AURUM... I get ONE F**K**G extractor with 951 left over
WHAT THE F**K CAN I BUY WITH 951 Aurum

Its like shopping at F***%$#g wallmart - 12 hotdog buns and 8 Franks please.


A sensible change would be:

$5 = 1000 aur
$10 = 2050 aur
$20 = 4100 aur
etc.

And change the extractors to 1000 aur.

Why should they do this? Because they'll save a whole lot of headache and negative publicity by having round numbers and not employing sleazy sales techniques. Because the 999 aur trick is not necessary with things as desirable as skill extractors.

Hey already changed it
1000 Aurum
& the Aurum packs have bonus 100 for this months
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1984 - 2016-02-08 20:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sizeof Void
Well, on the plus side, since the price of extractors has been announced, there now isn't much reason for anyone to rage and unsub.

Since the price of injectors makes them a suboptimal choice, in terms of SP per ISK or per PLEX, most players should just continue doing things the old way - ie. train your main with the queue, use the toon bazaar to buy already-trained toons, and use MCT to create new alts from scratch. Even for the big alliances, this will still make the most sense, esp. over the long haul.

I expect that we'll see some initial use of extractors by players who still have free Aurum lying around, to move or sell SP which is currently wasted in unused skills (or skills which got nerfed by CCP) on mains and alts, but that should be over and done fairly quickly. And, some space-rich folks will probably buy and use injectors, even at 150K SP per injector, since they have nothing else on which to spend their billions and trillions of ISK. And, maybe a very, very few players who have RL cash buring holes in their pockets, and nothing better on which to spend their money, may be silly enough to use the injectors to attempt to "catch up" to older players.

Beyond that limited use, though, I now think that players can relax and simply choose to ignore the whole thing. I don't think we are going to see much P2W activity here.
Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
#1985 - 2016-02-08 20:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Campion
FYI the 6x and 12x packs of PLEX don't make financial sense in GBP, it's cheaper to buy multiples of 2x

As a consequence, the "you save x" is basically a lie.
Memphis Baas
#1986 - 2016-02-09 01:07:27 UTC
You save X compared to the single, and advertising like that is common everywhere, even on TP rolls, where you always save more or get twice the sheets or whatever.

For US currency, buying 3 x 2-pack PLEX costs exactly the same as buying a 6-pack, and all the large packs are exact multiples of the 2-pack. You just click less, and your bank / cc / financial institution doesn't trigger a security lockdown for "too many purchases per second."

Do you guys get taxed more for costly items than for cheap items? Extra tax / VAT would explain what you're seeing.
Tamara Jade
Anonymous Four
#1987 - 2016-02-09 02:21:50 UTC
I can already see this happening, noob starts game and subs account. Buys some PLEX to purchase a few injectors from the market. This will make the noob feel invincible and go do stupid stuff (which is fine with me, easy kills), or they try running a harder mission now that they think they can fly a battleship properly. They will fail, lose a ton of isk, get frustrated with EVE, and quit. It might attract new players, with the idea of catching up, but there is no way they can catch up in game-time experience or learning game mechanics. Unless they are with a good corp that can show them the ropes. Just because you can sit in a ship, doesn't mean you know how to fly or fit it.

By no means is this pay to win. It's just pay to have SP.

My opinion on the SP trading is, it's a short term solution to a long term problem. I see these being a hot item in the very beginning, but they will fade. The rich will control the market on them after a few months when the volume slows down. By mid summer PLEX will be close to 2 bil.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1988 - 2016-02-09 02:57:01 UTC
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:
I really hope CCP notices all the outrage about the pricing and fixes it before release or there will be trouble down the road. These prices hurt everyone. They hurt buyers who have to foot the bill, sellers who won't be able to get a decent price for their SP due to lack of demand, CCP who won't sell nearly as many extractors, and the people who say the mechanic shouldn't exist because it still will.
If these prices don't change I predict an initial surge of people trying to sell useless SP and others buying it. But it won't take long for the buyers to run low and force the price down till the SP itself is only valued at 15-25% of what it cost to train. That will screw over the sellers, which will obviously make them unhappy, while still keeping the total price far above what the SP costs to train, significantly limiting buyers and making them unhappy too.
Even worse, once the extractors have been launched with a certain price it can't really be lowered without offending everyone who bought any up to that point.

I propose changing the pricing to 120 individually, 450 for 4, 900 for 9, and 3500 for 35 or 36. That would eliminate most of the rage over the price as well as the rage over the "hotdog bun" mismatch. It would allow buyers to pay a reasonable price for injectors while sellers get a reasonable value for their SP and CCP get more revenue after the initial surge because people would actually continue to use the feature. It would also help keep players happy because they won't be seeing a 50-75% tax every time they look at injector prices. The only losers in that situation are the people who don't want the feature to exist.


TL;DR: CCP please reconsider the pricing and change it to about 100 per extractor in packages that align with Aurum packages. And please do it before launch lest people get screwed over and hate you.



The price is just great for a noob who wants to fly a mining barge the same week he/she starts. Most of the carebear professions only require a few injectors to get into.

When I started, the idea that I'd have to wait a whole week in order to get "manufacturing efficiency" to V seemed outrageous, because I knew I had no hope of manufacturing at a profit without it, and the game was still new and exciting enough that I didn't know what to do with myself while I waited.

Now, 20 m SP later (or actually I haven't looked in a while, it might be 30 m). I don't mind waiting months for a new skill.



Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job!


The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting.


But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage.

If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week.

Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something.

I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles.

So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.


Ye Gods, I'm agreeing with a CODE member...it feels so wrong...yet it feels so right...



I've tried Pay2Win in the past. I found that, in most cases, it wasn't Pay2win. It was Pay-or-else-be-absolutely-guaranteed-to-lose. If you payed, you might still lose.

Having an insanely high price prevents that. You can refuse to pay and still win. That's really the important thing.

Never Enough
The Candle Factory
#1989 - 2016-02-09 03:41:35 UTC
Do I need to cancel and re-subscribe
to get my "Free Skill Extractors with Subscription Offers", as mentioned here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/skill-trading-launch-offers-on-aur-subscriptions-and-plex/
? Question
Aphatasis
Free Carpenters Union
#1990 - 2016-02-09 06:37:38 UTC
Never Enough wrote:
Do I need to cancel and re-subscribe
to get my "Free Skill Extractors with Subscription Offers", as mentioned here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/skill-trading-launch-offers-on-aur-subscriptions-and-plex/
? Question


My subscription renewed automatical on 2016-02-05 for 3 month. Please don't tell me "bad luck"...
If i change all my subscriptions to a 1 year cycle and 3d later change back to 3 month ?

Plz more detailed infos about that "Free Extractors for Subscription"-thingy!!
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#1991 - 2016-02-09 07:00:43 UTC
So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ?

An extractor is 800 AUR minimum, about 300 mil ISK + the time you need for training the skillpoints.

My guess would be at least 500 mil per injector, but I am sure they will be more expensive
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#1992 - 2016-02-09 08:18:44 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ?

An extractor is 800 AUR minimum, about 300 mil ISK + the time you need for training the skillpoints.

My guess would be at least 500 mil per injector, but I am sure they will be more expensive


I don't think you will get a marginal price for them yet, need to wait out the surge to see where it will settle but keeping in mind the purpose of them i suppose anywhere between 550 to 650 anymore and the people that theyre intended for will be priced out or have deep pockets.

I will give them a thumbs up for breaking the bonds with them being entirely tied to the plex and aurum and you can just purchase the extractors directly.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1993 - 2016-02-09 09:02:17 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
So any guesses what the market price for injectors will be ?

Sure. It's going to be (1/4+2/7+small_profit) PLEX, once the pool of "unwanted" SP is depleted and SP farms running on ISK (rather than real money) take over. So any sell price significantly below 0.54 PLEX is good for long term investment. Well, at least if you believe that PLEX prices themselves are going to hold steady or increase, which seems likely.

I doubt that there will be enough "unwanted" SP hitting the market to overcome both the "consumer" demand and the demand from people trying to stock up as investment. Other than triggering OCD or weird pride in a "lean" SP configuration, there is no real downside to keeping SP on your character. The number of people who need ISK right now, but have SP to spare, is not going to be that huge. It's more the demand side that needs ISK right now, if they try to shop for injectors. (So I expect people selling off other stuff to pay for the injector investment.) People who have spare SP, but no immediate need for ISK, will watch the market for a while, and thus witness it go up (due to a lack of the supply they would provide). We may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX...

Though if we do, I will throw what ISK I can free up at this. So will others. Hence, we may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1994 - 2016-02-09 09:52:09 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Hence, we may never see prices below 0.54 PLEX.

It isn't likely to go much above this price, either.

SP farming will be a completely risk-free, passive activity, which most players will be able to easily do (Cybernetics 5 and the two cheapest +5 attribute plug-ins in an alt should be all you need, right?), so anytime the price rises beyond 0.54 PLEX, you can expect more people to start farming SP, thus pushing the prices back down.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1995 - 2016-02-09 10:44:31 UTC
Congratulations you guys figured out relative hard cost.

Here's the rub: PLEX will be consumed for extractors, while ISK can be won by playing. And then due to the SP penalty, the consumption to production ratio is worse than 1:1.

PLEX will look something like 2 to 2.5 Billion, .54 PLEX will be 1 B.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Memphis Baas
#1996 - 2016-02-09 11:22:33 UTC
Aphatasis wrote:
My subscription renewed automatical on 2016-02-05 for 3 month. Please don't tell me "bad luck"...
If i change all my subscriptions to a 1 year cycle and 3d later change back to 3 month ?
Plz more detailed infos about that "Free Extractors for Subscription"-thingy!!


You pre-pay when you pick a subscription, so I would guess you can cancel the 3 months, and you'll still have 3 months of play, just won't bill you again. Then you can immediately pre-pay for a year, picking up 4 free extractors. Then cancel again. And then pre-pay for another year, picking up 4 more free extractors. Then cancel again. etc.

You'll just end up pre-paying (and being able to play for 3 months + several years, of course).

You can test this by canceling your 3 months right now (you'll still be able to play), and then checking account management to see if you can see the extractor deals available.
Nuclear Nut Zack
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1997 - 2016-02-09 11:59:01 UTC
...And it went live without pricing changes. Well, time to grab some popcorn and watch the show.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1998 - 2016-02-09 12:34:13 UTC
players are fighting for lowest sell order when The Americans haven't woken up yet.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Nuclear Nut Zack
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1999 - 2016-02-09 12:46:43 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
players are fighting for lowest sell order when The Americans haven't woken up yet.

I stayed up just to unload a couple million useless SP before the market crashes. Mission accomplished.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2000 - 2016-02-09 12:49:26 UTC