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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#1081 - 2016-01-23 07:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Oreb Wing wrote:
I don't think they are understanding just how much the injectors will be, which will act in and of itself as the prohibiter or hedge to check its proliferation. For example, and for the sake of argument, let's say they were made available for 1800 AUR a stick. Add the value of SP to this empty stick and you now have what could be near the value of a single PLEX. Undoubtedly PLEX will inflate, so I will throw out an estimated value of 800m ISK a pop. After the first 10 Skill Shots (assuming this is a brand new character with zero training) any subsequent injectors will suffer a 100k SP loss on activation.

That's 8 BILLION in costs just to jump to 5 million SP. What kind of marauder will you be flying with 5mil SP! Far from the doomsday scenario people are painting. No one will be able to afford to catch up to a 200m SP character. EVER!!!!!

If thousands do, hopefully CCP can throw a perpetual fanfest that goes all year long and at every major location. Whoop!

::puts party hat on::

DELETED
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1082 - 2016-01-23 07:31:36 UTC
After reading some more of the objections, I think they generally fall within two separate groups.

First, the objection that SP can be a market item at all.

Second, the objection that CCP gets a monetary cut of any SP trade, via the AUR requirement. As in, "What's next? Pay 1 AUR to undock each time?"

I've previously described why I'm not concerned with the first. Regarding the second - I agree that this certainly could be an issue. I would totally hate feeling that the more I do in the game, the more real-money I have to pay. I'd simply stop doing stuff in the game under those circumstances. Thinking about it more - my preference is that CCP should not add an AUR cost to Skill Extractors, and instead simply let the player-driven market decide the relationship between SP, ISK, effort, sub price and PLEX price. In fact, CCP should not add an AUR cost to any in-game activities, whether it's trading SP or undocking or whatever. (Equipping a monocle or SKIN is not what I would call an "activity" so those costing AUR is fine by me.)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1083 - 2016-01-23 09:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Eli Stan wrote:
I don't think it's an accomplishment that I'm approaching 2 years in this game. I don't continue playing simply to get that number, and my SP count, higher. I play this game because of the connections I've made with the people I fly with, and against. I count as accomplishments the small roles I play and the appreciate I have from my fleetmates for what I do.

Yo, this place isn't safe.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Hurrikhan Phact
Aideron Corp
#1084 - 2016-01-23 10:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hurrikhan Phact
CCP Phantom wrote:
A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.

Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details.

We welcome all your feedback, thank you!

My feedback? Don't do it. Reasons see below.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against.


PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with.

The skill point trading thing crosses a line.

The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.

It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.

CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.

This. Skill trading might not be P2W, but its P2Progress, which isnt much better. Give new characters more start skill points if you are worried about them getting bored. You could also give them unallocated skill points after finishing the tutorials. Promoting Pay2Progress not only disgruntles many loyal, long-time subscribers, but is also the worst way to help new players. Most gamers, who havent played EVE, already think that EVE is a very expensive game because they read all the "50,000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles. It will be very hard to convinve them that EVE is not blatant P2W when they see offers like
"pay X amount of money to skip the boring training time!"
"instanlty get the perfect skills for a Svipul and pwn your fellow newbies!"
ZmajOgnjeniVuk
Doomheim
#1085 - 2016-01-23 11:08:07 UTC
I support this update. Would give new-mid level players a chance to be more engaged in endgame content.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1086 - 2016-01-23 11:37:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against.


PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with.

The skill point trading thing crosses a line.

The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.

It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.

CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.


So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.

And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though!
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1087 - 2016-01-23 11:46:58 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
You can fight with basic skills, you continue to ignore this because of "SP matters" mentality.
noobs with basic skills can help in PVP, noobs in PVP can fight and learn against other noobs in PVP.
Vets who care about the future of the game will help to train noobs in basic PVP with the equipment that is available to them rather that telling them "you must be this tall to ride".

Your psychology is all wrong there.

Newbie A has no real experience, and due to SP constraints flies a weak ship with an even weaker fit. Newbie A gets trashed a lot in PVP.

Newbie B has no real experience, but due to SP boosts flies a decent ship with a good fit. Newbie B gets trashed a lot in PVP (though somewhat less often than Newbie A).

Given this, which newbie learns more rapidly that it is not just SP (and consequently ships and fits) that determine PVP success, but rather real experience?

Of course it is Newbie B who learns this faster, on average! Because Newbie B cannot blame his losses on the equipment as much, whereas Newbie A can continue to believe that if he only had a better ship with a better fit, he would do much better.

Given this, which newbie is likely to stay more motivated to continue playing?

Of course it is Newbie B who will be more motivated. He will on one hand have a clear and realistic learning goal (I need to improve my actual skills here, not just "amass more SP by waiting"), and on the other hand he will be winning some fights (at least more than Newbie A), and winning is fun.

A newbie's first instinct will typically be to get the absolute best equipment they can possibly afford, to compensate for their lack of experience. And that is proper and good.

Also, let's be clear here: if indeed it were the case that it is only real experience that counts in fights, then this whole discussion would be entirely pointless for veterans. In fact, they should think nothing of simply allowing everybody to fly whatever they want. After all, who wins fights would then be determined solely be experience, which the veterans have on their side no matter what. But that's of course not the case. While a newbie can have a good ship fitted so badly, and steer it so horribly, as to lose to a veteran in a weak ship, a slightly less clueless and inexperienced newbie in a much better ship will not be such an easy victim (at least in solo PVP).

Not all veterans find EVE as easy as Suitonia. I bet a number of veterans have grown too comfortable with the hierarchy of equipment access imposed by the SP system. Some people will now be able to "shortcut" through the ranks. Yes, some of them will be "clowns" that just rise as high as their credit card will take them. But some of them will be simply good players who demonstrate that it doesn't in fact take years to master this or that EVE game mechanic, if one only is allowed to have a go at it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1088 - 2016-01-23 11:57:44 UTC
My view on 'It doesn't change the game because character bazaar':

1) I dislike immenesely the idea of the character bazaar.

2) building a character over time based on training choices was a central concept right at the heart of this game. It required time, planning and some research. That is now being removed which in my view is a pretty major change in the concept of the game.

I also don't for one second think that this will be enough for people (classic thin end of the wedge). Players who are happy to buy there way in will simply keep asking for more.

Whilst this change doesn't affect the mechanics of the game it will very heavily affect how people play the game. Good or bad remains to be seen.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#1089 - 2016-01-23 12:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against.


PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with.

The skill point trading thing crosses a line.

The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.

It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.

CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.


So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.

And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though!


You will quit in time. Eve will be instantly downgraded to 3rd rate once this SP trading goes live. And a 3rd rate Eve doesn't stand a chance against competitors like Star Citizen.

Could be the reason CCP is trying to milk the cow before throwing in the towel.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1090 - 2016-01-23 12:37:33 UTC
Talk about the price of skill injectors etc is to completely miss the point.

What is fundamentally wrong, is being able to pay cash for skill points.

This is not a signature.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1091 - 2016-01-23 13:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
What do you call it when you stay subbed for years on several accounts to make sure you don't miss out on SP, even though you know you won't be playing?

It's the same thing.

The important thing to remember is it's within the limits of what a company can do with the rule book. Whether it's Magic The Gathering and a change in the bylaws or whatever governs the card game, an SP transfer mechanic is the same thing.

As for the question of "What Next?"

Being able to see things through to their logical conclusions is a good skill, but another good skill is the ability to be objective about what is, and stopping short of what something might be.

The extractor / SP trade mechanic is one case when you shouldn't react based on an exaggeration of the thing. Evaluate it for what it is, and go with that.

It helps to not be emotional about it.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Memphis Baas
#1092 - 2016-01-23 13:09:03 UTC
Would you guys be against extending attribute implants?

+5, +10, +50, +100, +1000, +10,000,000
100m ISK, plex, 5plex, 10plex, 100plex, $20,000,000

The last one would allow pretty much training of "everything" in 2 days.

At which point, between "it takes 4 years to build a character" and "instant" do you start complaining, and why? Does the completely unreasonable cost factor into your reasoning? Clearly there are billionaires out there; I doubt anyone would pay $20 million for a character, but theoretically a "rich kid" could.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1093 - 2016-01-23 13:11:26 UTC
I thought +10 attribute enhancement was an eye opener. But I also CBA to pay or hunt for them.

I wouldn't be against it, but remember any kind of flat acceleration to SP accumulation is a discount on one of EVE's main subscription generators.

Skill extractors are a sink, and the exact opposite.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1094 - 2016-01-23 13:19:55 UTC
To accelerate SP accumulation by a year, or 20 million SP, CCP would have to recoup the cost of an annual subscription.

So it would cost AUR, not ISK.

Figure 12 PLEX for 20 million SP overnight, and add a 50% premium for the convenience.

18 PLEX x 3500 AUR = 63,000 AUR. It would look something like that per 20 million SP.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1095 - 2016-01-23 13:22:27 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1096 - 2016-01-23 13:31:58 UTC
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:

thats.....a really expensive plan o.o
and i don't think it will be worth it

4 characters, 5mill or more SP. ok thats cheap enough. maybe under 10mill for all 4 if u you lucky (more likely 16mill)

4 new accounts, thats 4 plex per month. plus your main

and then using ALOT of injectors and extractors, which i'm guessing(no word how much they will be yet. so spitballing here) 4 injectors will be 1 plex, and 4 extractors will be 1 plex



so thats...
16mill isk

and the plex cost...is nasty there......

4(plus main for 5) plex per month for subs

2 plex per the 1 injector/extractor for all 4 char.

you could probably get 2-3 injectors per month per character....


so thats 5 plex + 4 to 6 plex per month


I think you mean 16 bil. But we're talking "pay to win" right? So why would I use plex for my subs? Dollar for dollar, straight subbing is cheaper.

And looking at the Bazaar, I think it's unlikely I'll be able to buy 4 characters for less than the cost of waitng 3 months, so I'll go ahead and skip the bazaar.

So 4 subs, 6 months each comes to $286.80 US Dollars.

Giving them 8 total improved implants will cost me most of a PLEX. So add $17.50 to that

After the three month mark, each character should be able to give me 3 extractors per month.

Each of them will also be half decent industry and research alts by now, so I might be earning ISK off of them.


Quote:


and thats also assuming that its 4 injector/extractor per plex. and not 2.


I mentioned the assumption of a fairly cheap aur value was a requisite of the plan, yes.

If Aur costs a lot, then this isn't "pay to win". It's "pay a lot to win", in which case it won't destroy the game because only a few players will be rich enough to even do it.

Quote:

its also assuming that SP injections are not locked to the skill they extract (which is VERY possible)


If that is the case, then each alt will remap at the 3 month mark to a separate specialization.

One will stay Intelligence/Memory to improve shield/armor tanking and etc skills

One will go Memory/Perception for drone skills

One will go Charisma/Will for leadership

One will go Will/Perception - because you know that's a good specialized farm right there. Great for perfecting covert ops, or marauders.... etc. But you usually wouldn't want to commit to map one character to that for a full year just to max that out.


Quote:

50mill SP characters are sold ALOT on character bazaar for an easy price. far far FAR less than the total plex cost of you getting 50mill SP off injectors.



Usually the reason they sell for so little is because they are unspecialized.

With Injectors, all toons are equally specialized.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1097 - 2016-01-23 13:42:35 UTC
Zozoll Neblyn wrote:
With Injectors, all toons are equally specialized.

I think what you mean is remapped. If attributes went away, this point wouldn't be an issue. And they need to go away.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1098 - 2016-01-23 13:49:11 UTC
Why do mouth-breathers here keep pointing towards Newbs having no actual skill therefor injection of SP isn't P2W?

This has nothing to do with Newbs injecting skills it has to do with the hardened player of several years now being able to pay to play like a 10+ year vet.

The Novice players are the ones who should be most mad. If you started between 2009 and 2013, your character age group has the ability to whip out credit cards and surpass you in every skill.

The alliance member can now whelp in as many Slippery Pete fleets as they want. Need a cyno alt, buy two injectors. Need a hauler real quick, buy 3 injectors. Need some place to park your Nyx, or stop your rival from stealing your soon to be finished one? Buy a lot of injectors.

Newbs aren't the ones I am worried about Paying For The Win. Its the guys who know what they are doing, but don't have the SP to make it all happen perfectly.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1099 - 2016-01-23 13:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Yonis Kador wrote:
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:
the feedback wasn't as negative as you peeps think.

the negative nancies were vocal about it yes, very vocal. but they were the minority.


in terms of number of posts. negative nancies had the most

in terms of number of people who LIKED the idea, they had the majority, even if they didn't spam post it like the negative nancies.


This made me lol. This troll, posting nonstop, a one-man SP-trading advocacy group, has the nerve to talk about spamming. Where are these supportive stats coming from? Did you count comments? I've seen nothing but overwhelming disapproval and 1st year vets unsubbing. All while much younger players laugh about it and call them names. Good times.

My initial reaction was shock that this was even being considered and disbelief when I saw the devblog.

And, tbh, I'm still having a difficult time accepting that CCP has chosen to cheapen the game in this way and devalue the time investment of so many players. Because training has been so linear, for players who assign value to their games based on time, its a tough pill to swallow. It makes all that time meaningless. All those years of loyalty... poof. And this is made worse by the lack of communication from CCP. Instead we're left to debate the merits of a done deal with trolls about as smart as turnips. I can't even. I care so much about this game - it literally kills me to see these easymode, want-it-now noobs screeching about what a great change this is b/c they don't have to wait. Wheeeee! They don't even understand what EVE is. Or was, as it were, at this point.

You know, I'm hearbroken like I lost a friend (lol) but I'm not quitting over this. I'm not sure what stage of grief I'm on at this point but I'm guessing it's nearer 7 than 1. If EVE is going down in flames, I'll be around for the ride. **** it. Personally, I'm looking forward to the o7 show on Thursday. Where, I expect, we'll actually see LIVE devs speaking about this. I look forward to hearing all about the excitement spreading through the playerbase and the overwhelming support for SP-trading. Really I just hope someone at least tries to sell it to me in a way that makes sense.

Because I can't make much sense of it on my own. : /

How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes?

EVE ONLINE: HTF... oh whatever. I give up.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled trolls....

YK

CCP have forgotten that Eve is a niche game. Rise is only interested in PvP, whereas eve never gained it's audience due to having great PvP. That is why he and his team are throwing out this skill trading change, they think it will make it quicker to get into PvP which is true, but they don't understand that a large portion of the player base don't actually PvP and prefer the RPG aspect and the epic feel of character progression and the Sci-Fi universe. Also as a side note Rise is terrible at anything outside of PvP, take a look at the NPE which he spent ages implementing and it is worse than what was there originally. It wouldn't surprise me if this is another one of his ideas. So I blame this direction squarely at the devs for not understanding their customer base and why people actually play this game.

Also with ship balancing lately CCP seems to to just chuck out changes ignoring the player base and hoping for the best. I've noticed the in last year or so the trust between the devs and players has started to erode. Same thing has happened with this change, CCP are ignoring the players thinking we don't know what is best for the game and are only acting in our own interests. I don't blame the devs for this as there are a lot of pressure groups that simply troll and spam the forums, but it is a shame.

Once all this stuff has been implemented the ADHD crowd will get bored sooner or later and move onto the next new thing, and CCP will have eroded the core player base who have kept this game going for the last 12+ years to a point that it is no longer feasible to keep the game going. I'd give it another couple of years now unless something dramatic happens such as another monoclegate.
Memphis Baas
#1100 - 2016-01-23 14:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
King Aires wrote:
The alliance member can now whelp in as many Slippery Pete fleets as they want. Need a cyno alt, buy two injectors. Need a hauler real quick, buy 3 injectors. Need some place to park your Nyx, or stop your rival from stealing your soon to be finished one? Buy a lot of injectors.


All of these fictional examples are great!

Quote:

So I'm sat in my super, I've jumped 2+ times, and suddenly I discover I'm OUT OF CYNO ALTS and can't reach my destination!!!

I'm market-trading with the best of them; man I can make Excel spin in circles and spit out profit at me in 256 different colors, but **** I didn't plan how I was gonna haul all this ammo I just bought from Jita to sell in Dodixie!!!

Note to self: Totally regret buying this Nyx; ship is great, but every time I get somewhere I need to find a parking spot for it!!! Dammit!


So, basically, you object to CCP and some players taking money from the absolute complete MORONS who think and act this way, and don't plan even 1 minute ahead to actually finish accomplishing the very basic actions they started. I guess I'm with you, it's not nice to take advantage of retards; let them suffer the consequences of their retardedness.