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I should warn you

a)You are going in semantics again, moving away from the point. My point was that if you have "access" to it as ability to earn it and afford TSP it does not mean everyone has it. Ie it does not matter if you have it in your wallet at the moment or in investments or you just know how to make it. No need to play it dumb. And I have shown you that there is no need for such assumption by providing concrete numbers. Everyone has ability to earn isk, but there are huge differences in efficiency, time being devoted to that etc. And what you are stating is pure elitism, "everyone is given a same chance, who cares why someone cannot do it" and something which was against principles of EVE since start. Ie time managed sp system was there to give everyone same "rights" regardless of how much time they can devote to the game, that is one of the main reasons why eve got it niche. While you are pushing it to favor the more active ones. And I highly doubt you would push it if you were not able to earn it yourself
b) I do not want to ignore them, I just pointed out they are not so big. Plus bazaar will remain as it is and still be more used than TSP. On the "ignorance" comment that troll added which you referred later on, I just gave example and there are thousands same like that and countered your original statement that that is some benefit we will gain with TSP. I just pointed out it is already doable
d) Ok, now I can agree with that when put that way, it will have more visibility than bazaar
e) Again, looking through your own eyes. You were offered T3. Were you new player? I highly doubt it since new players cannot really fly them... So why involve unrelated bs as an argument? I will repeat again, no corp will give hundreds of millions to new players.
f) see d) :)
g) I am saying that budget for plexes is limited. Ie the amount of money people spend on plexes wont increase by adding another use for plexes. People who need to buy plexes with isk will increase in numbers for sure, but it does not mean amount of plexes will be sold unless there is increase in price of it. Which will probably grow faster than supply, as the supply can stretch only a bit up, demand will grow much more which means prices are going to keep going up. And then we will see more and more people quiting.
h) At what point you expect them to purchase them? Since on the start they cannot earn isk to secure sp, they would need to purchase it with money. How many would be willing to do that? It seems that we need to define what we mean by new player. As it seems that our idea is different. For me new players are people who play up to 6 months of playing. Unless heavily guided and instructed, only rare of them will be able to earn enough for their play and sp
i/j) I just feel it is wrong to add something like that to the list as it give impression that you just want bigger list
k) If that is current scenario, I pity such players. There are things to do in eve since day 1, if you choose to be bored you cannot blame the game mechanics for that
l) see k)
m) see g), plex can only go up in prices with this and the TSP price will follow
n) It will be cheaper due to diminishing returns. Simple as that. Regarding my comment on fixing char purchase I just gave shallow random ideas which have crossed my mind, I did not really think of solution for it as this is not topic for that.

There is not a single point on the list which will be beneficial for A LOT of players. What dismisiveness and unfounded assumptions I made, if you do not want to understand something it is really not my fault.

But I have already posted them, they are already in this thread. You are blaming me for being lazy to search them and link them for you, while you are lazy to search them and read them on your own?



So, you do not have any official data presented in tangible way but you blame me for the same? Interesting. And if both yours and mine experience are not worth of anything, then how we can discuss about it? My main point in sp vs proficiency is that is not something which creates big bottleneck as there is always things to do in eve regardless of sp. So even though some players would surely utilize TSP it is not game changer for anyone.

And I am being honest all the time. I have no reason at all to "fight" beside game`s sake and that is only reason why I am posting. I am afraid that current direction is going to make the game worse. And I want CCP to keep taking my money :)



Again, you blame me to being lazy while you are lazy on your own to find them and read them. Starts to be funny :)

I am not sure why does it looks like I claim both, must be due to my engrish skills. It is definitely not worthwhile as we are "fighting" for totally different points. I am fighting for the sake of the game, you are fighting for your own interest.

There was only ~5 ppl I called trolls in this thread. And they were obvious trolls not just by the posting but because a lot of their posts got deleted. And if my pointing out that you should read my posts before discussing in order to understand my point in details is trolling, then so be it. It just shows me that your main reason for discussing with me is not to understand each other and then discuss but only to annul my posting by whatever means necessary in order to "win the war" for your personal cause.

And that is one of the reasons why it is not worthwhile to post. Reasoning behind our posting seems to be totally different. Because if you wanted to discuss for the sake of game you would go and read my WOT`s on this subject. Another major reason why it is not worthwhile is that CCP is coming with this change regardless if we agree with all your claims or all my claims. I just wrote side effects which will hit the game after this change no matter if you want to agree or not (would demand to read them first though ).

Please tell me what I am wrong about you:

1. Above average ingame capability
2. Smart
3. Ignorant (looking through his own POV)

Teach me, master.

Prices of around 300 to 500 mil per packet have been bandied around for SP packets - How many new players have 2 bil in their in game wallet to pay for a plex and an SP packet?
Instant gratification is the norm for many (especially when it comes to "leisure time"). Is there enough rich benefactors in Eve to hand out isk by the bucket load to new players to use sp packets or will this new class of players need to have a large amount of excess income to spend on their leisure activity.

The biggest single concern I hear from new players (aside from "why do players in lowsec always kill me") is, how do I make enough isk to play for "free".
The "need" to buy SP packets, "so you don't get left behind" "so you can be useful in fleet" etc, can only add to the frustration many new players suffer now.

Benefit to the game - Is hard really but *could* lead to a lot more targets for those who learned the game as they trained up, rather than paid to buy SP. Anyone who has played eve for more than 5 mins knows, having the skills to fly a ship does not make you a good pilot (unless you join an F1 group where your just one in the blob).

IMO; The best way to allow new players to advance more quickly (if that is the goal); Reduce the transfer cost to a single plex and make the extra by adding options to buying a new character from the the character bazaar. Offer the option (at a cost) to change the name of a purchased character, offer the option (at a cost) to remove existing corp history.
Once a character is sold on the bazaar it has lost any link, symbolic or otherwise with its creator (or at least should). So why not allow the purchaser to start out fresh, new character, new name, start your own (corp) history.

a) No, you're simply refusing to acknowledge the point by trying to say any specific example you can find of a poor player invalidates the idea that players can chose to learn to make more isk. There is plenty of info out there on how to do so. Those who are good at it learned from somewhere obviously. Why you assume so many permanently incapable I'm not sure. At some point you're going to have to justify this limitation you assume other players have.
b) No, you pointed out you were not one of them, that was it. And dismissing the size of the group still doesn't argue against it being a benefit for them.
e) Relatively yes, They offered it, but when you can barely board a drake, as was my case, you couldn't really take advantage of it. But pointing out such orgs exist is not looking at things through one's own eyes because the existence of those orgs and their programs doesn't change with personal perspective. What they have done is objective fact. That's why your ignorance argument is BS.
g) That reasoning goes completely against the P2P/P2Progress arguments being made. If this becomes a non-driver for PLEX purchase from CCP then no one is actually exchanging cash for SP and we get an increase only in so much as farmers of SP actually need to establish their capacity, which in some cases is 0. I'm just not prepared to believe that no one will take the at least one time cost out in real currency for a quick training boost.
h) Contradicts your previous point. If the amount of PLEX flowing into the game won't increase due to what you seem to think are capped RL budgets, then that's it. There can be no cash purchases by new players. But to answer the question of targets, I expect the 10-50mill range to see the most use. I'm not expecting brand new players to use it, as the shouldn't really be engaging in steep purchases for skill systems they likely won't fully understand. This is a feature for those who have been here to the point of understanding game and training fundaments.
i/j) We'll have to agree to disagree.
k) No, but you can provide carrots to discourage it through mechanics.
m) Yeah, but you contradicted the method with your very prior point.
n) A solution which didn't address the chief issue with the sale of dirty characters, consequence avoidance. Rather it just potentially builds it in to xfers.

No, you never told me I was wrong, you just said it didn't apply to you then suggested that's the same as being wrong. Further now you seem to be suggesting that the people who feel differently than you don't count because a number of people agree with you. In both cases you're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Taking your own myopic view as a norm to minimize conflicting viewpoints while further ignoring the context of the issue. No one would expect a 2003 player to have this conflict. Your personal experience and the experience of your tenured peers is the last and least useful place to draw that measure.

And no, the last paragraph in no way validates you. Rather you're now just saying minority benefits aren't worth counting, again continuing your trend of marginalizing if not outright denying anything that's not in your majority. You're refusing to consider anything not in the majority use case when it suits you.

I'm just not one to believe that because a group is a minority, an advantage top them isn't an advantage to them.

And no, I'm terrible at maximizing market usage. Another thing you got wrong.

On top of that, you're still being intellectually lazy and not providing the points, so calling you out for it is entirely accurate.

Not to mention it's fundamentally wrong. Since when was Eve not a sandbox that allowed and in some ways mandated taking something where others may not have the ability to do so?

The only thing the game has ever done is give access to the same basic tool, their character and then has you determine the rest from there. If that process is elitist because it doesn't ensure parity and allows some to gain more than others then the game itself is fundamentally and inescapably elitist.

Which means if that's a problem for someone that other can use their knowledge and skill to do more than they can in a competitive environment, the issue is that player, not the game.

Eve is a sandbox in every sense of the word. In this open world there is no place a one day old character cannot go to that someone who has played for 13 years. There are no level entry requirements to access any area, there are no instanced area's that are off limits to anyone.

What are you trying to infer that eve should be ?, All its characters are created equal from day one none better than the next. It's up to you what direction you choose to progress and how quickly too. Every one has the ability to train for implants to speed up there training and with the plex you are now on a level field with the ability to gain isk without any grind. If a pilot decides to go cyber/ssc/gunnery to work towards fleet and then you have someone who is semi clueless and just wants to chase the idea of playing the game for free grinding at almost anything for the plex, That is not the games fault but they're the first to whine about falling behind and they cannot access the latest FoTM shinies.

Tenure and length of, Has always been an integral part of eve. Even the CEO states:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

Sandbox / Openworld does not mean instance access to every item in game, Just that everyone is given the opportunity to gain access to them. I can see there is a need to help the new now and part of the new system maybe leading to this, The 5 million cut off for an extraction maybe because somewhere down the line new players could be given 5 million as a start point but the figures for 5 / 50 are nothing short of a reskill mechanic as they stand.

The only way this would work without intended / unexpected exploitation would be for CCP to market them directly, It may not be a perfect solution but far less interruption to the game as it now stands.

Edit: A lot of people think they would prefer sandbox games, then when presented with a true sandbox game they either don't like it / wont play it. Truth being that the majority of casual players who hop on for a hour or two expecting to be rewarded are disappointed. A sandbox game like eve represents a time commitment which you should treat like hobby and expect to play for 6 month's minimum but more like 2 years.