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Why do off grid links exist?

Author
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Shadow Cartel
#121 - 2015-11-27 09:29:17 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You realise that people cry more about being perma jammed than they do when they lose to someone who is boosted?




I think unsubbing link toons to hit CCP in the pocket and to lower the online player count will also be an option for people who use links.


Interestingly enough, I just resubbed my alt account. Granted she's got CS 5 and max links, but she also has logi 5, Cal/Gal BS 5, Recon 5, and can sit in a Cal/Gal Carrier. I won't be so upset with links moving on grid.

Now, just need to talk to the Chinese government and explain to them why they need to open up their interwebs because dual boxing here is just asking for insta-DC's all day, everydayUgh



I was going to just dual box ECM like most other people are planning - but I figured I'd rather save the $$ and go back to the simple life of one account.

Chinese Internet has to be better than Aussie Internet.

We basically have tin cans connected by string gaffa taped onto the sides of our computers.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#122 - 2015-11-27 12:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Kalo Askold wrote:
Meh links are the cancer of lowsec and now highsec station games. Need at least a 2bil pod to compete or pay for another account. Then ccp wonders why their active numbers are so small with less and less new people no matter how good the tutorial phase is. Between links and op ships no reason for a new bro to try eve pvp unless dragged in by a friend. Thier play time will just be death after death because someone has another account running a 500mil t3c for their 3 mil kestrel vs their own low sp kestrel. As for older people using links, lol risk adverse little s----. Enjoy dying to my griffin fleets!


I would expect that links play no negative role in the sub numbers. The actual reason EVE is losing subs is obvious. EVE is an old game with no mass appeal, a terrible NPE and a crippling but perhaps not quite deserved reputation for being very hard to learn because :spreadsheets in space:.

To try and breath life into the game CCP should fix the initial overview and window layout to make it functional so new players dont have to learn how to customise eve before they even know how to play. EFT and EVEMon should be incorporated for a seamless experience.

Every new player should have all fitting skills at 4, tank skills to 3 and all their chosen racial ship skills (up to BS) to 3 along with their racial weapon and weapon support skills. The game is far too old to expect people to start from scratch, even with the new player SP tweak recently.

Each school should have paid/free sub FCs who spam chat with open fleets to go and brawl each other in non-fw low sec to clash with each other with the possibility of roaming further, or also getting dunked by locals. FCs could be elected or just trialed on activity levels depending on the reward they receive. This gives new players the oppertunity to get away from shooting red crosses on day one. Perhaps there should be gateless pockets in these systems where boosts dont function so discourage l33t pvpers from ruining their entry level fun. Im sure generous entities would also help these newbs out with isk by buying doctrines from a wish list for both sides and placing bets on the winner :p (since with the skill changes i mentioned above they can now fly all t1 ships of their race).

Removing links will result in an initial plummet of sub numbers that will never be replaced by new newbs who never knew links existed anyway and who are still gonna get dunked by more experienced players. Nor will they be replaced by the whiners who more than likely quit due to burn out but their own lack of introspection leads them point fingers and blame everything else.

Now, my link alt is also perfect moros, perfect triage, all t2 ship skills to 5 bar marauder, jump portal 5 and cyno 5, so i will likely see if there remains any enjoyable ways to use it before i unsub it. But in reality all i see for link changes is;

-People blobbing up slightly more.
-Large alpha fleets will continue their resurgence with links being removed from grid within 10 seconds of the fight starting.
-Lerger entities who can field more than half a dozen CS will have the enjoyable task of swapping out booster alts on the fly as theirs die. Or at least have many CS on field to minimise the chance of losing their boosts.
-Fights returning to gates where CS can jump and reapproach.
-Medium+ t1 cruiser fights being a brutal and fast dps race where logi, particularly armour have no chance to lock and cycle before anything dies.

We will have to see what CCP does with smaller command hulls, boost ranges and grid sizes before a picture of the impacts will become clear.

Lets just face facts though, removing many hundreds of characters from their primary role to appease a small number of l33t solo kestrel pvpers and newbs that quit the game before they even set foot in lowsec is not going to result in greater concurrent subscriptions lol.
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#123 - 2015-11-27 13:54:59 UTC
Indeed off grid links are a horrible idea for overall EVE players.

Who gets advantage of this ?. Obviously people with more than 1 account or using, one account with multiple active characters.

off grid links are a HORRIBLE mechanic, sadly as someone said before, if CCP changes this mechanic they will get some people angry and probably lose those players.

I wonder if CCP has the guts to make a survey about off grid links and call the decision based on the community feelings about this ridiculous mechanic.

By the other side, ON GRID LINKS are a great mechanic for fleets that will people actually fly those ships and fit them properly.

Maybe just add restrictions to off grid and bonuses to on grid links may help partially fix the issue!


PLEASE CCP, what's your next move.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-11-27 14:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
...


I think you're a bit delusional.

Yes EVE isn't massively popular, but most MMOs have suffered over the last few years, as economic reasons mean people are less inclined to want to spend money on a subscription.

Off-grid links needed to be removed because they are a completely unfair game mechanic. High reward, low risk. They make no sense in any context. On-grid links not only is much more reasonable, but it adds another layer of strategy to fights, as well as gives boosting ships a completely different role.

Off-grid links should be removed regardless of whether they have a positive or negative impact on subscription numbers. If CCP really want to whore themselves out that much, then they should just make every aspect of the game Pay2Win, because as much as bittervets hate to admit it, EVE is actually far more pay2win than most MMOs, and "player skill" is vastly overstated. Lets see an experienced player of 5 years fly a low SP character against someone who has been playing 6 months, but has access to a 50m+ SP character, with enough isk to completely bling out his ships and pod, and also have an off-grid booster, all brought to him courtesy of his credit card. I don't care how much "player skill" the vet has, he will loss more often than not. I'm glad CCP has acknowledged things need to change and will be removing off-grid links.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.

Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#125 - 2015-11-27 14:19:30 UTC
Kalo Askold wrote:
Meh links are the cancer of lowsec and now highsec station games. Need at least a 2bil pod to compete or pay for another account. Then ccp wonders why their active numbers are so small with less and less new people no matter how good the tutorial phase is. Between links and op ships no reason for a new bro to try eve pvp unless dragged in by a friend. Thier play time will just be death after death because someone has another account running a 500mil t3c for their 3 mil kestrel vs their own low sp kestrel. As for older people using links, lol risk adverse little s----. Enjoy dying to my griffin fleets!


>>> This is true!!!, off grid links sucks!

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Every new player should have all fitting skills at 4, tank skills to 3 and all their chosen racial ship skills (up to BS) to 3 along with their racial weapon and weapon support skills. The game is far too old to expect people to start from scratch, even with the new player SP tweak recently.

Removing links will result in an initial plummet of sub numbers that will never be replaced by new newbs who never knew links existed anyway and who are still gonna get dunked by more experienced players. Nor will they be replaced by the whiners who more than likely quit due to burn out but their own lack of introspection leads them point fingers and blame everything else.

-People blobbing up slightly more.
-Large alpha fleets will continue their resurgence with links being removed from grid within 10 seconds of the fight starting.
-Lerger entities who can field more than half a dozen CS will have the enjoyable task of swapping out booster alts on the fly as theirs die. Or at least have many CS on field to minimise the chance of losing their boosts.
-Fights returning to gates where CS can jump and reapproach.
-Medium+ t1 cruiser fights being a brutal and fast dps race where logi, particularly armour have no chance to lock and cycle before anything dies.



No, New players to EVE need to be enlighted into 3 easy to follow rules.

1. Choose carefuly your training skills. for pvp, mining, industry, missions, etc... because it takes TIME!, focus 1 goal tree path of ships or whatever.

2. Security status mechanics!!! which are very important in high, low and null sec.

3. Never but never fly ships u cant easily replace!


>>> removing links will remove those who abuse links, but not all of them. LINKS are insanely strong for small numbers and less important for large numbers vs small.

In even fights they are also critical. Maybe on grid links could be fitted with a special bastion module only active when links are active!

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#126 - 2015-11-27 14:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Ragged, as a counter argument. Links are the only reason i will engage massively outnumbered.

Also, while true, the tired lessons you have for new players are a little bit generic and simplistic. They have been in place for years and have done nothing for new player retention.

As someone who makes new alts every month or so, im faced with how unfit for purpose the default UI is. The extra skills im suggesting will give new players an expanded sense of purpose which i would expect can only deliver good things for player retention.


Johnny, you misunderstand.

I was commenting on the argument that eve is dying because of OGB. OGB has next to no negative impact on sub numbers or new player retention.

I was also saying that those people who do not want to field an expensive commandship in a risky cruiser fight day after day will fight without links and there will be a culture shock for how those fights play out. Command destroyers can only use one link which will be the resist ones. That will not make logis life much easier as numbers grow.

Finally i was saying that larger fights in larger hulls are going to be a one dimensional alpha shot of potential hostile boosts resulting in a slam dunk of the rest of the fleet.

In most fights if one side gets a couple of wrecking shots on the hostile booster and the other doesnt. The fights p.much over and everyone can go home;

"Boosts are down"
"Deagress/bail"

So no, my post was not about how OGB are good for the game, it was about how grid boosting will change the game.

My actual argument is that boosts should be removed completely rather than putting them on grid which only gives advantage to whoever is the largest gang in space.
Liam Inkuras
ParabeIIum
#127 - 2015-11-27 15:49:31 UTC
Help to a Garmur in the novice )))

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#128 - 2015-11-27 15:51:56 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Ragged, as a counter argument. Links are the only reason i will engage massively outnumbered.

Also, while true, the tired lessons you have for new players are a little bit generic and simplistic. They have been in place for years and have done nothing for new player retention.

As someone who makes new alts every month or so, im faced with how unfit for purpose the default UI is. The extra skills im suggesting will give new players an expanded sense of purpose which i would expect can only deliver good things for player retention.



I agree that the game is old, I disagree regarding the skills. I think the skill que is fine.

why?. If a newcomer can focus skill training for a single purpose, within 1 month or 2 he can master that task. lets say incursion, pvp with a shiptype, mission runner, etc ...

The so tired lessons, are always heard but not used that often. I think that the appeal of EVE is the variation in game-style you can do. I think the most appealing characteristic CCP can do is upgrade the missions. Change the difficulty when is done in fleets and when it's done solo. Yes, for experienced players you have the burner missions, that's beautiful. For new players you still have a bunch of missions that became repetitive after a couple of runes.

NPC Pockets can be more separated in space 200-300km one from each other, more NPCs that use some sort of strategy that can be cracked down but makes the game appealing. Now we have easier manual piloting and soon 1st person view camera of the ship. This new-coming features should have as companying interesting more variate mission design.

Check the missions of Freelancer, or elite dangerous or other spaceship games. There is a lack of feeling involving the player with the story in the current missions. Maybe a sound play of the mission description. I'm not an expert in game development but I have played video-games for almost 20 years now and I feel like EVE is missing that exiting environment for new players. That feel overwhelmed by the experienced players.

The missions should put in practice specific skills for flying the ship, like afterburner or microwarpdrive, why not make missions that makes u use AB or where the npcs are kiting (2km/s speed) and u need to catch them. I'm sure there are many many ways of improve mission running. Mining, etc ... BONUS rewards that pop when you something like defend ur mining barge from some npc frigs and you got a bonus of 5% faster mining for 10 minutes or something similar. Missions that involve fight on a gate and watch your timers, defend a transport ship passing thought gates, fight on stations, and many many more variants that I'm sure is not hard to code, because I know how to code, so on ...

EVE is a great and fun game when you have the patience to learn the mechanics and deal with the community. For new players that want to have insta fun without learning for months, the missions should reflect all game mechanics, mjd, active reping, buffer fits, fits for exploration, for kite, to brawl, to deal with neuts, how to deal with security standings, etc etc ...

NEW, MORE COMPELLING, FRESH, MECHANIC TEACHING MISSION ARE A MUST AND EVE IS LACKING OF THEM.

if you could make the player involved with the game at a personal level, and make farmer have fun with it, EVE will retain way more people than other games.

What makes a game retain players, 1. gameplay, 2, graphics, 3, pvp, 4, comunity.








Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#129 - 2015-11-27 15:55:03 UTC
lol

@lunettelulu7

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#130 - 2015-11-27 15:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Rugged, hey mate. Join this game and in a month or two you could do one thing that you want. Its easy for people like myself wity 130m SP+ to forget how absurd the waiting is in this game for skills. That is only getting harder as the old guard are hitting 300m SP ballpark. Asking people to start with a couple hundred thousand SP and 14 years behind is a big ask.

Doesnt sound very appealing does it?

The proven way to get people to stick with this game is not PVE. The proven way to get people to enjoy the game is not shooting red crosses at all. Its giving them the opportunity to fly with other people who can teach them the game faster than any red cross.
Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#131 - 2015-11-27 16:24:21 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Rugged, hey mate. Join this game and in a month or two you could do one thing that you want. Its easy for people like myself wity 130m SP+ to forget how absurd the waiting is in this game for skills. That is only getting harder as the old guard are hitting 300m SP ballpark. Asking people to start with a couple hundred thousand SP and 14 years behind is a big ask.

Doesnt sound very appealing does it?

The proven way to get people to stick with this game is not PVE. The proven way to get people to enjoy the game is not shooting red crosses at all. Its giving them the opportunity to fly with other people who can teach them the game faster than any red cross.



it's a scale thing. I agree that SP can be absurd. I agree with your idea of reduce SP and focus skills... making easier to max out something. but this is not the main issue.

I invited a friend to EVE, we played together for 6 months. He loved fly cheap low SP frigate and hunt npcs in null because it was challenging and fun. he found PVP exhausting due links, OP ships, poor detail on how mechanics work. We run lv4s and after two weeks he got bored of the PVE, shortly after he quit.

PVE is the most appealing thing for NEWPLAYERS, PVP is awesome in teams (blob as everyone call it). SP are realy hard to work on but its interesting WORK to fly a gigantic spaceship.

this is why although I agree with you that SP are an issue, they have little to do with player retention. Fallout 3, took me 1 year to cmplete and max out a character in a way I wanted. I never felt the sensation the skiling was low. and it took 1 year and its a freaking solo pve game.




Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#132 - 2015-11-27 16:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Im saying make it easier to have the minimum skills for something on day one. Maxing out skills and cross training will take nearly as long as it ever would.

And honestly, i dont see any logic to any of your posts. Comparing FO3 to EVE? Seriously? People stick with eve for PVE? Really?

EVE is not at all famous for its PVE content. Its infamous if anything, and not in a good way.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-11-27 17:10:48 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
...


Sorry, from the tone of your post I thought you were implying that offgrid boosts shouldn't be removed.

While I agree that even on-grid boosts should have their effectiveness/influence toned down, I don't think it should be removed completely. Yes it encourages tactics where the biggest blob of ships is going to take down the enemy booster and then gain a significant advantage, but that isn't any different in my opinion from blobs eliminating enemy logistics. The fact of the matter is that EVE is largely based around numbers. Where two fleet compositions neutralise each other, the biggest fleet is the one that wins most of the time, I don't think having on-grid boosts is something that will change that. IMO the advantage has always been to whoever has the largest gang.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#134 - 2015-11-27 17:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Dont get me wrong, id rather boosts stay as they are. But if given 2 options, removing them completely would seem far more preferable than not being able to field them against larger fleets all else being equal.

Well, not that you cant field them, but losing a 400m isk commandship a few times a night would be pretty tedious.

As for the advantage to larger gangs, as ive said many times, i use boosts to harass fleets while vastly outnumbered. People complain about the garmur, but ive been doing this for a long time now. Ill happily warp into 30-40 people inside a plex and take my chances with boosts. Doesnt always work out. But without boosts, it will often just be a pointless exercise.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2015-11-27 17:56:46 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont get me wrong, id rather boosts stay as they are. But if given 2 options, removing them completely would seem far more preferable than not being able to field them against larger fleets all else being equal.

Well, not that you cant field them, but losing a 400m isk commandship a few times a night would be pretty tedious.

As for the advantage to larger gangs, as ive said many times, i use boosts to harass fleets while vastly outnumbered. People complain about the garmur, but ive been doing this for a long time now. Ill happily warp into 30-40 people inside a plex and take my chances with boosts. Doesnt always work out. But without boosts, it will often just be a pointless exercise.


I don't get it. Why should a "solo" pilot in a single ship be able to engage a much larger force and not get obliterated?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#136 - 2015-11-27 18:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Specialised fits. Also, i didnt exactly obliterate them either. Just harass.

Links just make more options viable.

Do you think it should not be possible to fight outnumbered?
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2015-11-27 18:33:11 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Specialised fits. Also, i didnt exactly obliterate them either. Just harass.

Links just make more options viable.

Do you think it should not be possible to fight outnumbered?


Of course you should be able to fight outnumbered. But it should be down to piloting skill/tactics, and ship fitting. It shouldn't be down to having a magic boost to everything just because you have someone in fleet 50 AU away providing links.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.

Ragged Starkiller
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#138 - 2015-11-27 19:14:19 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Specialised fits. Also, i didnt exactly obliterate them either. Just harass.

Links just make more options viable.

Do you think it should not be possible to fight outnumbered?


lol, you are stuborn as any eve player ... and obviously you didnt got the idea of what I was talking about...


yes fighting outnumbered is possible. 1 against many, why not ... its fun, but off grid links are just absurd..

Markus Lionum
EVE Corporation 98582134
#139 - 2015-11-27 20:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Lionum
Great freaking job CCP are you insane putting links on grid? You are killing solo pvp for alot of people if you implement this!! Pirate
Titus Heldane
The Vomit Comets
#140 - 2015-11-27 20:07:37 UTC
Markus Lionum wrote:
Great freaking job CCP are you insane putting links on grid? You are killing solo pvp for alot of people if you implement this!! Pirate


i hope this is a troll post