These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
nospet
#241 - 2015-10-25 18:38:43 UTC
One big issue I am concerned about is:

With new scramble strengths and Capital Warp Disruptors & Scramblers where does this leave heavy interdictors?

Heavy interdictors were newly re-balanced and this seems like it is going to take them out of use almost entirely.

Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#242 - 2015-10-25 18:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
CCP Masterplan wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
2. With the talk on reduction of hit points on Supers and Titans, don't you think people will be even more risk adverse with capitals? That people will only commit them to the field if they have a guaranteed chance of not losing any?

A question for (all of) you: Do you think that being able to deploy with a guarantee that you won't lose anything is healthy/good for the game? Not even high-sec makes that promise.


No one is going to deploy a fleet where it all depends on a single type of ship. We currently see this problem in subcap fleets staying docked cause no boosters are available. Despite popular belief, this is something the vast majority of sov blocs suffers from.

As the changes currently stand, the answer to literally everything is throwing more dreads at it. With the size of the Imperium we will never again be in a capital fight cause no one will ever want to escalate against us cause we will outblob them with Dreads, without ever putting our Titans or Supers on the line. There simply isn't a counter to dread blobs. It used to be Supers and Titans but with the proposed changes Supers and Titans are simply too weak after the Triage carriers have been nuked off the field. As the blog so proudly states, it will be all about holding tackle on the hostile capitals which will be reasonably easy with the removal of Ewar immunity. Instead of using a single Titan, you can now throw down 30 dreads instead which will be way more ISK efficient.

Will the fight be more bloody? Yes, but they will be a lot more rare cause you will be counter dropped by a ton of dreads.

Tl;dr The changes further reinforces the N+1 but instead of it being Titans, the role has now been given to dreads. No one will want to escalate to capitals cause it'll be bloody for everyone.

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#243 - 2015-10-25 18:40:33 UTC
nospet wrote:
One big issue I am concerned about is:

With new scramble strengths and Capital Warp Disruptors & Scramblers where does this leave heavy interdictors?

Heavy interdictors were newly re-balanced and this seems like it is going to take them out of use almost entirely.


Bubbles are pretty good at tackling lots of things at once. Capital Warp Disruptors will likely be single-target devices.

According to updates.eveonline.com, hictor points are due for a balance pass soon. I don't actually know what that will entail, but I feel like it's a decent chance that they'll be adjusted to match the state of capitals at the time.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Emmy Mnemonic
Svea Rike
Northern Coalition.
#244 - 2015-10-25 18:43:15 UTC
nospet wrote:
One big issue I am concerned about is:

With new scramble strengths and Capital Warp Disruptors & Scramblers where does this leave heavy interdictors?

Heavy interdictors were newly re-balanced and this seems like it is going to take them out of use almost entirely.



They said Heavy Interdticors and Interdictors will work as they work now; i.e. when bubbled or focused script-warp disrupted, every capital till be tackled. So there will be a place for them after this aswell!

I guess the capital disruptors and scramblers are so that one capital kan hold another capital tackled. But there has to be 20-50 subcaps to tackle one capital with "ordinary" disruptors/scrams. That number is to be tuned i understood.






Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Emmy Mnemonic
Svea Rike
Northern Coalition.
#245 - 2015-10-25 18:44:40 UTC
So, in all a lot of nice and shiney new features and functions! Did CCP mention the rough time-schedule for launching these capital-changes? Will it be an expansion or several smaller updates?

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Tatiana Nixx
Ruby Dracos
#246 - 2015-10-25 18:49:16 UTC
I didn't read the whole thread TLDR.

Regarding POS bashes, if carriers are no longer going to be logistics, can you extend the firing range of the fighters so they can effectively damage a POS tower? This could also be used against any stationary targets. This would encourage anybody in a fight to move instead of just sitting there (more dynamic gameplay).

Many if not most POS's in the local area don't have any defense and bringing my carrier to a POS bash is effectively useless unless a large fleet shows up, which they haven't yet., which is why I brought the carrier (insurance). Yes I know sentry drones do some damage, but not compared to a fleet of fighters.

[posting on sub-alt]
Mr Coulson
S.H.I.E.L.D. HQ
Sentinels of Sukanan Alliance
#247 - 2015-10-25 18:54:26 UTC
Another good point is Bubbles. Don't troll me if I get this wrong please, but isn't it true that all ships caught in a bubble end up IN or on the edge of the bubble? If so - I would propose an Inertia effect on ships that hit bubbles. The bigger and /or faster u warp the farther u travel thru the bubble? I belive this is the case somewhat now, but I'm proposing it be expanded.

For instance -- a titan/super hitting a bubble will end up passing clean thru and beyond, but will have dropped out of warp and dragged out of alignment with their destination and have to realign and re-warp away before being tackled.

While an astero being both light and fast ends up only at the leading edge. and adding higgs modules means u end up 200-250k beyond the bubble, lol
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#248 - 2015-10-25 18:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
Maybe some backround first, since people will poke at that anyway at some point (you can skip that of course):
I am still too young to fly caps myself, so it is mostly a picture from outside - what I do like to fly is logistics, so my interest are mainly carriers or now force auxilliaries, as that will maybe end up beeing what I eventually will fly. The uni obviously has not a lot of caps. If we fight battles on that scale it is usually us bringing Neuts to take those dragons down (at most we have a few triage carriers or dreads).
So the only time I see supers or titans, is when they jump in and driveby our triage carriers and end the fight doing that.

That may result in bias, so that might be useful to start. Now my thoughts on that topic:

Titans and supers don't seem underpowered from my perspective - if they are basically the - "I win"-button in those fights. But that might just be perception.
Now you buff titans with AOE doomsdays. Subcaps can maybe evade that but triage carriers and sieged dreads won't, because that is what triage and siege do, right?
Now you reduce the HP of caps and introduce plates, also you stop carriers, from beeing able to refit. Now put that into perspective:
Now:

  • A driveby titan appears
  • Case 1: our triage carriers manage to refit in time and actually survives
  • Case 2: our triage carrier is too slow and dies - End of the fight

After Changes:

  • A driveby titan appears
  • Case 1: our triage carrier can't refit anymore, it's HP is reduced - dies in a fire - End of the fight
  • Case 2: wait no there is no Case 2...

Well... sounds... nice What?

To explain it in a bit more general terms - what is wrong with combat refitting? It just makes individual players and their actions meaningful - if the fit is fixed it is more n+1 than before.
It was also unique to capitals - you can perform better in sub caps by manual piloting (increasing and decreasing range, change transversal, you can't do that with capitals) but in exchange you can refit, because you have enough buffer, that this works.
On top of that, combat refitting is something individuals do, while making doctrine fits is usually done by the Leadership, wasn't there something about: "Line members should matter more" (fleet warp changes - anything rings a bell?)

It just seems like you remove a feature for no reason at all. I mean refitting does nothing in n+1 terms. You can't make someone refit his carrier better, by bringing more carriers to the field this just doesn't make any sense.

And dreads - well before you actually needed sub cap support to hit things with your guns. So it makes interactions and synergies possible means, more roles in a fleet. Now you give dreads just guns that track better but have worse dps, making them more standalone - do you want that?

All in all, I was kind of ok with the dreads and carriers as it was - triage and siege mean, that you can neut them out in those vulnerable phases and kill them before they get out of that. They might be powerful in this state but also weak. So kind of balanced. And again, I didn't see supers and titans that often...

EDIT: A more conceptional apporach to that topic:
Second Post
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#249 - 2015-10-25 19:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelira Cirim
Querns wrote:
I'm donning my unnecessary etymology hat for this post....
In naval parlance, it refers to a vessel with a supporting role, which is not armed for combat. It makes a lot more sense than "logistics," which typically refers to moving goods, troops, or equipment, not healing. "Logistics" is what Jump Freighters do.

Personally I agree with you, I was parroting the audience quote.
Calling "healers" "logistics" is one of the strangest appropriations in EVE. I don't need very many fingers to count duplicate and confusing terms, but this is one of the biggest.

My point was rather, replacing one nonsense term for a new set of nonsense acronyms isn't elevating the (faux) profession. Naval accuracy certainly won't stand in the way of FCs calling for FAPs. And don't forget PAPs for FAPs. BlinkRoll

Do not actively tank my patience.

Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#250 - 2015-10-25 19:03:46 UTC
Junot Nevone wrote:
What about the rorqual? I was really hoping it was "capital" enough to get some attention. It has beem over three years now since a dev told us change was coming.


CCP plans on removing the Rorqual from the game. That's why it was not part of the Capital Balance. This is also why they removed the compression BPCs that were unique to the Rorqual, then they removed compression from being unique and gave it to all areas of space, regardless of skills. Then they made the clone bay useless by letting everyone get clones regardless of Standings.

The writing is on the wall for the Rorquak, CCP plans on deleting it, just doesn't know how to openly say so. This is why they repeatedly state they don't know how to approach it. They "it" is actually the pilots who use them.

Give it until summer and CCP will finally break the news that they will be removing it from the game. It's roles will be replaced by a service module or new anchorable in the Citadel system that will provide system wide boosts equal to the Rorqual or better. This will help get rid of the Rorqual and make the Industrial crowd want to get Citadels built in the systems they are in.

It's coming.. Or some form of this... You watch. System wide mining booster module thing will come and that will be the final bullet for the Rorqual.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2015-10-25 19:07:12 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Junot Nevone wrote:
What about the rorqual? I was really hoping it was "capital" enough to get some attention. It has beem over three years now since a dev told us change was coming.


CCP plans on removing the Rorqual from the game. That's why it was not part of the Capital Balance. This is also why they removed the compression BPCs that were unique to the Rorqual, then they removed compression from being unique and gave it to all areas of space, regardless of skills. Then they made the clone bay useless by letting everyone get clones regardless of Standings.

The writing is on the wall for the Rorquak, CCP plans on deleting it, just doesn't know how to openly say so. This is why they repeatedly state they don't know how to approach it. They "it" is actually the pilots who use them.

Give it until summer and CCP will finally break the news that they will be removing it from the game. It's roles will be replaced by a service module or new anchorable in the Citadel system that will provide system wide boosts equal to the Rorqual or better. This will help get rid of the Rorqual and make the Industrial crowd want to get Citadels built in the systems they are in.

It's coming.. Or some form of this... You watch. System wide mining booster module thing will come and that will be the final bullet for the Rorqual.

Frankly, aside from the bit where I would prefer the rorqual to be repurposed rather than eliminated, I'm on board with your "doomsday" scenario. Right now, mining relies far too much on boosts to be effective. Miners produce more than twice the amount of ore/ice/gas per cycle when they have mining boosts. Bake the cycle reduction and capacitor use boosts into the mining modules, and either remove all mining boosts or relegate them to utility things like laser range.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#252 - 2015-10-25 19:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Howe
One thing to remember about dread dps with the new guns is that, while 1-2k dps doesn't sound like much, dreads are significantly more mobile and tankier than battleships, so if they had more dps than battleships against subcapitals, why would you fly anything else? Cost would be a factor, but as is well known, cost can never be a factor when it comes to balancing ships e.g. titans. Also, dreads will have longer range with these new guns than battleships, which is something else to keep in mind, balance wise.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#253 - 2015-10-25 19:12:49 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Yes that is an option. One possibility that has been raised is that on patch day, any carrier with a triage module fitted will be turned in to a force aux. But this is still very much something we want to get your input on before we nail down the final plan.

Let people build them from scratch. Ships are always being rebalanced or changing roles, and so their is no precedence for converting once ship into another. Carriers are still going to be useful ships.

I've seen example of where CCP has changed skills to a completely different and useless role from their originally intended purpose and their was no reimbursement or replacement for those.

Manufacturers should be the first ones to build and seed new items onto the market.
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
Goonswarm Federation
#254 - 2015-10-25 19:18:47 UTC
Sayod Physulem wrote:
Maybe some backround first, since people will poke at that anyway at some point (you can skip that of course):
I am still too young to fly caps myself, so it is mostly a picture from outside - what I do like to fly is logistics, so my interest are mainly carriers or now force auxilliaries, as that will maybe end up beeing what I eventually will fly. The uni obviously has not a lot of caps. If we fight battles on that scale it is usually us bringing Neuts to take those dragons down (at most we have a few triage carriers or dreads).
So the only time I see supers or titans, is when they jump in and driveby our triage carriers and end the fight doing that.

That may result in bias, so that might be useful to start. Now my thoughts on that topic:

Titans and supers don't seem underpowered from my perspective - if they are basically the - "I win"-button in those fights. But that might just be perception.
Now you buff titans with AOE doomsdays. Subcaps can maybe evade that but triage carriers and sieged dreads won't, because that is what triage and siege do, right?
Now you reduce the HP of caps and introduce plates, also you stop carriers, from beeing able to refit. Now put that into perspective:
Now:

  • A driveby titan appears
  • Case 1: our triage carriers manage to refit in time and actually survives
  • Case 2: our triage carrier is too slow and dies - End of the fight

After Changes:

  • A driveby titan appears
  • Case 1: our triage carrier can't refit anymore, it's HP is reduced - dies in a fire - End of the fight
  • Case 2: wait no there is no Case 2...

Well... sounds... nice What?

To explain it in a bit more general terms - what is wrong with combat refitting? It just makes individual players and their actions meaningful - if the fit is fixed it is more n+1 than before.
It was also unique to capitals - you can perform better in sub caps by manual piloting (increasing and decreasing range, change transversal, you can't do that with capitals) but in exchange you can refit, because you have enough buffer, that this works.
On top of that, combat refitting is something individuals do, while making doctrine fits is usually done by the Leadership, wasn't there something about: "Line members should matter more" (fleet warp changes - anything rings a bell?)

It just seems like you remove a feature for no reason at all. I mean refitting does nothing in n+1 terms. You can't make someone refit his carrier better, by bringing more carriers to the field this just doesn't make any sense.

And dreads - well before you actually needed sub cap support to hit things with your guns. So it makes interactions and synergies possible means, more roles in a fleet. Now you give dreads just guns that track better but have worse dps, making them more standalone - do you want that?

All in all, I was kind of ok with the dreads and carriers as it was - triage and siege mean, that you can neut them out in those vulnerable phases and kill them before they get out of that. They might be powerful in this state but also weak. So kind of balanced. And again, I didn't see supers and titans that often...


Sorta funny how a pilot, who never has flown a cap, understands this more than the dev team.

While I like many of the changes, this one is such an obviously unneeded one.
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#255 - 2015-10-25 19:24:39 UTC
xttz wrote:
Does this mean that optionally replacing existing carriers with force aux carriers is on the table?

One of the dev quotes from the Vegas Q&A was -- very offhand -- along the lines of "maybe any carrier with a Triage module fitted that day converts to a Force Aux? We'll think about options."

As hundreds of industry moguls cry out in terror. Cool

But it could be nice to have an immediate transition of hulls, rather than lose fleet functions while waiting for the builds.

Do not actively tank my patience.

Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
Goonswarm Federation
#256 - 2015-10-25 19:26:24 UTC
Garrett Howe wrote:
One thing to remember about dread dps with the new guns is that, while 1-2k dps doesn't sound like much, dreads are significantly more mobile and tankier than battleships, so if they had more dps than battleships against subcapitals, why would you fly anything else? Cost would be a factor, but as is well known, cost can never be a factor when it comes to balancing ships e.g. titans. Also, dreads will have longer range with these new guns than battleships, which is something else to keep in mind, balance wise.



More mobile? You are joking right? They warp slower, align slower, and then are forced to sit in place for 5 min in siege. Oh they can jump, effectively once per hr, which means they fall prey to anything faster. If you apply 1 hr of travel time, say to get to a big fight. You can actually get BSs to the fight faster, unless you travel fit, which then leads to getting caught and having fitting issues do to the weapons timer issues they are proposing.
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
Goonswarm Federation
#257 - 2015-10-25 19:31:53 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Yes that is an option. One possibility that has been raised is that on patch day, any carrier with a triage module fitted will be turned in to a force aux. But this is still very much something we want to get your input on before we nail down the final plan.

Let people build them from scratch. Ships are always being rebalanced or changing roles, and so their is no precedence for converting once ship into another. Carriers are still going to be useful ships.

I've seen example of where CCP has changed skills to a completely different and useless role from their originally intended purpose and their was no reimbursement or replacement for those.

Manufacturers should be the first ones to build and seed new items onto the market.


This is not realistic, what you propose is a 4-5 day window where there are NO capital class remote reps. It takes 4-5 days to produce these (basic cap production times), during which time all Citadels and capitals would be completely vulnerable to attack. Having the ability for carrier to fit a triage to them on patch day means you have dedicated pilots, who likely wanted to be cap logi, available. This also means that only those who can fly them, get them.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2015-10-25 19:36:25 UTC
Mai Ling Ravencroft wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Yes that is an option. One possibility that has been raised is that on patch day, any carrier with a triage module fitted will be turned in to a force aux. But this is still very much something we want to get your input on before we nail down the final plan.

Let people build them from scratch. Ships are always being rebalanced or changing roles, and so their is no precedence for converting once ship into another. Carriers are still going to be useful ships.

I've seen example of where CCP has changed skills to a completely different and useless role from their originally intended purpose and their was no reimbursement or replacement for those.

Manufacturers should be the first ones to build and seed new items onto the market.


This is not realistic, what you propose is a 4-5 day window where there are NO capital class remote reps. It takes 4-5 days to produce these (basic cap production times), during which time all Citadels and capitals would be completely vulnerable to attack. Having the ability for carrier to fit a triage to them on patch day means you have dedicated pilots, who likely wanted to be cap logi, available. This also means that only those who can fly them, get them.

You can't apply remote repair modules to Citadels. They self-repair after defenders clear the field of incoming damage.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2015-10-25 19:51:59 UTC
I'm really not keen on the removal of combat refitting from subcaps, this was interesting and fun gameplay, it's only really problematic with capitals.

Ewar resistance seems too strong if I'm reading this right when combined with the stacking penalties of multiple ewar effects of the same type applied to the same ship and makes the difference between strength bonused ewar and unbonused ewar even more pronounced.
Tie One
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#260 - 2015-10-25 19:55:19 UTC
i think the high angle weapon batteries should do more dps.
1-2k is a bit low for a dread in siege. if you throw me with a pebble (bs)
it will hurt less than a boulder (dreadnaught). a mac can out dps it.
hell you can get 1600dps+ on a t1 typhoon. i know you have way more
tank but size people common XD. atleast lift it to 3k to be better than a pimped bs