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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: And thus it begins!

First post First post
Author
Tiberizzle
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2015-10-25 12:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberizzle
Querns wrote:
Combat refitting needs to die. There is no skill involved in switching your modules to tank when you see yellow boxes. No ship should be able to mellifluously mutate to the exact optimal configuration for whatever situation they are in. Your fitting choices should be meaningful.


I disagree very much.

Refitting can absolutely require skill in the form of in-depth fitting knowledge and correct situational prioritization of attributes.

Even something as simple as "Throw on full tank" has stupid many permutations.

What even is full tank???

Is the incoming damage balanced or can you optimize further from omni for it?

Could the incoming damage change, how much should you optimize and leave yourself time to react to a damage type switch?

Can you overheat specific hardeners until burnout then refit fresh ones to buy more time?

Which hardener combinations give you the best omni profile with your native resists, the best trade-off vs other likely damage type swaps?

Which sacrificial heated hardeners give you the most tank for the longest for a particular damage profile?

Could you get bumped and lose the ability to refit, could you get neuted, should some or all of your tank be passive?

If you're active hardened and being neuted should you generate cap, should you inject cap, should you reflect neuting with capacitor battery and get fed cap?

Do you really even need to go full tank or is there enough surplus RR that you could reduce your tank and affect the fight beneficially in some other way?

tl;dr: you can dismiss it as "too powerful" or "too tryhard" but please don't even try to dismiss it as "no skill"
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#62 - 2015-10-25 12:27:19 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
I like the concept of 20-50 warp strength for super caps instead of immunity.

Would you ever consider trickling down that concept to Battle Ships ? Just idly wondering if a base warp strength above 1 might be an interesting dynamic.


This x1000.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.

Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#63 - 2015-10-25 12:27:42 UTC
Removing ewar immunity from Siege/Triage seems like a bad idea. Straight
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2015-10-25 12:29:35 UTC
No refitting while you have a weapons timer...........good for ships that can receive RR but for siege, triage and bastion.....you just killed any reasonable chance they have of surviving 5 mins of isolation (referring to siege and triage)

Due to the nature of siege and triage there is a finite amount of EHP that can be gained before the ships demise. On top of this the pilot must make the correct choices of what to refit to while managing capacitor, heat damage and still providing the primary function (rep or DPS) all the while being shot, neuted and (in the upcoming rebalance) EWARed to death.

I am strongly against the changes to combat refitting for sieged or triaged ships. Its you vs the entire enemy fleet and it requires skill to survive and be effective. I do not want capitals to become meat shields for less skilled and boring f1 gameplay

I would propose that ships in triage, siege or bastion receive a bonus that allows then to refit when in said mode with a weapons timer.

So Much Space

JustSharkbait
Deplorables.
Sedition.
#65 - 2015-10-25 12:31:11 UTC
First, I would like say that I love these changes. I would like to see the jump range increased some to go along with these, just to make the game less of a chore, but I think these changes are a breath of fresh air and I like them.

I see one glaring problem though:

Even with the changes super and titans are super expensive. If their EHP goes down to be more in line with other ships, then it should stand to reason that the price and build time/costs should go down to be more in line with other ships as well.

The more affordable they are, the more they will be used, which means the more they will die.

Are there any plans to rework the costs of supers and titans?

Hoo Ha Ha!!

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2015-10-25 12:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Regarding the new super-weapons; will these all be individual modules, or will there be a single "Doomsday Weapon" with scripts to alter the functionality?

Also are there any plans to have racial bonuses for these weapons? For example, any Supercarrier can fit any Projected Electronic Warfare module, but the Hel gets a slight bonus when using the webifier variant while the Aeon will get the best performance from the energy neut.

Quote:
We understand that a lot of capsulers purchased their carrier as a logistics platform. We don't have defined plans for a transition between existing Carriers to the new Force Auxiliaries, but I can assure you it is on our radar, and we'll be announcing the transition plan with plenty of time for everyone to get ready.


Does this mean that optionally replacing existing carriers with force aux carriers is on the table?
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#67 - 2015-10-25 12:34:26 UTC
When talking about new Capital Sized modules, are you going to do something about the size of them...being able to carry modules to refit is going to be extremely difficult when you can only carry a couple...
Anthar Thebess
#68 - 2015-10-25 12:34:33 UTC
Good changes, especially for supers.
Dread guns against subcapitals doing 1-2k damage - this is not even funny.

3-4bil ship that cannot receive reps vs 3 x 400mil battleships capable of moving and receiving reps.
If you leave it this way - nothing will change - even after gun tracking nerf webs and paints will be still better options for dreads.

Removing Ewar immunity from capitals is awesome idea.

The problem is again in modules.
Triage boost scan resolution
Siege nerf it

Solution to make dreads worthless -> drop on them ECM drones. Jamming is chance based , and if 1 of the 50 drones manage to do it you waste 1/2 siege to lock target again - and in this period , you will be jammed again.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2015-10-25 12:35:08 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:
Querns wrote:
Combat refitting needs to die. There is no skill involved in switching your modules to tank when you see yellow boxes. No ship should be able to mellifluously mutate to the exact optimal configuration for whatever situation they are in. Your fitting choices should be meaningful.


I disagree very much.

Refitting can absolutely require skill in the form of in-depth fitting knowledge and correct situational prioritization of attributes.

Even something as simple as "Throw on full tank" has stupid many permutations.

What even is full tank???

Is the incoming damage balanced or can you optimize further from omni for it?

Could the incoming damage change, how much should you optimize and leave yourself time to react to a damage type switch?

Can you overheat specific hardeners until burnout then refit fresh ones to buy more time?

Which hardener combinations give you the best omni profile with your native resists, the best trade-off vs other likely damage type swaps?

Which sacrificial heated hardeners give you the most tank for the longest for a particular damage profile?

Could you get bumped and lose the ability to refit, could you get neuted, should some or all of your tank be passive?

If you're active hardened and being neuted should you generate cap, should you inject cap, should you reflect neuting with capacitor battery and get fed cap?

Do you really even need to go full tank or is there enough surplus RR that you could reduce your tank and affect the fight beneficially in some other way?

tl;dr: you can dismiss it as "too powerful" or "too tryhard" but please don't even try to dismiss it as "no skill"

All of these choices are largely congruent to a situation where you can't refit, except they matter even more when you have no replacements.

The small depth of tactical decisions, amplified by the removal of cost associated with changing your modules, in no way is worth the complete neutering of all the strategic decisions involved in picking your fit in the first place.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-10-25 12:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dograzor
Hello CCP,

Thank you for a bold move regarding capitals. I know it is hard to keep everyone satisfied while trying to establish a fresh form of gameplay.

I will give you feedback on the proposed changes.

However, my personal main issue with capitals has not been addressed yet, that being, force projection. It is all nice to have new things, but force projection is still issue #1 that needs fixing. You had a feedback round on it and I was hoping that by EVE Vegas you would comment on this issue as well, but sadly it did not happen. If you want to read my feedback post on those issues, please read:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6078209#post6078209

I believe force projection needs to be fixed first, as with the current status quo capitals will just... suck and your capital changes will be naught as no one enjoys flying capitals regardless with the current force projection. Address this, please.

As for the content that has been presented at EVE Vegas:

It is a bold new move in a bold new age. You are willing to take risks when it comes to developing this and I like that. I would need to see the actual numbers in order to be constructive, but for now, good job.

Things I like:

  • Fleet/ship hangars + refitting on all caps
  • Removal of slowcat/bootcarrier doctrines and switching over to a dedicated logistics ship, bold move but needed, it eliminates a part of the n + 1 gameplay
  • New capital mods - **** yeah, maxing capitals will be more rewarded for veterans
  • Blapdreads are back - hell yeah
  • Fighters being really fighters, I like
  • Superweapons - yes please

Things that I am critical about/need addressing/more information:

  • Capital ewar immunity removed - for Titans and Supers - I am curious. If a enemy brings a 150 man long rage kiting ewar fleet (think the FYF from the CFC), would they be able to reduce a 30 man capital fleet to useless? This issue would need... careful tweaking.
  • Also - What will be the roles of hics (focused points) and hics and dic bubbles with the above changes?
  • Triage and Siege should be ewar immune, don't touch that.
  • The new squadron UI looks nice - critical question - how will the new UI and manual flight controls work in a high tidi + module lag + low fps due to a 1000 man fight? Will it be stable enough or very frustrating to interact with? Keep in mind the description that I gave are ingredients to most big fights +1000 people, which you will see if a citadel is critically reinforced.
  • The role of supercarriers - They are not fully clear to me. Can you be more specific on them apart from "yeah they can carry like 2 extra heavy squadrons and have some nice debuffs"?
  • Make sure you don't screw over people who have invested years of training and isk in specific ships (applies to all capitals) - give skill refunds if some are made redundant etc.
  • Rorqual. Where is the Rorqual? I demand a pimped Rorqual that I can fly bling bling style into the gates of Oblivion.

Anyways, that is what I wanted to say. I will notify my alliance about this thread as well & have them post feedback.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#71 - 2015-10-25 12:42:58 UTC
Hey guys,

Everyone prety excited about these changes, they sound interesting to say the least.

We've heard shockingly few details (or questions from the community) about the general stats and end results of capital propulsion modules. Is it only microwarpdrives, or afterburners also? What kinds of speeds are to be expected / are you aiming for in general?

Ever since times of olde, hushed prophesies of nano dreads have been heard. I'm eager to hear what's up.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2015-10-25 12:49:32 UTC
Oh I am also going to miss my beautiful triage archon :(

So Much Space

thearrowofapollo
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#73 - 2015-10-25 12:49:33 UTC
I mean...WHY NOT?

CCP mashed up the game so much...making titans and supers even more useless i guess won't matter that much.
Like it's not enough you pay over 130bil for a titan+fits....and you can't take a dread out with a dd... they have to make it even worse...

Supers? Why not nerf their HP and bonuses even more....they rly are OP now, and abused in daily gameplay....

TBH CCP... your marketing and Guest satisfaction (players in our case) is as ****** as it can get. You cannot have ppl investing all this time in training and buying titans and supers, fitting them with tens of billions worth of items, so you can make those ships worse and worse and worthless with any major patch you're implementing.

It is bad enough the player database is extremely low, and instead of you thinking of ways to get players back, and bringing new ones, you're actually forcing us to leave??? Because this is what you ARE doing if you look at the big picture.

Some more questions ( which i'm sure you have no answers, or there is still decisions to be made upon):

1: If all supers and titans can be tackled by any ship....what will the HICS role be? Will they be immune to the "Hand of God"?

2: If supers and titans can only be docked in XL citadels, that means POS's will still remain fulfilling the same roles they have now? Or you will be forcing every titan player to be in an alliance that owns a XL citadel, so that their titans won't be left to float in space?

3: This new doomsday's, will they give you the same timer like the present doomsday? So if you activate all your doomsday's, will the titan be stuck in the system for 30 minutes, unable to jump out / cloak ?

4: On your next EVE VEGAS, can there be a pre-selection of participants, with guys that will ask proper questions? guys that really care about the game? Like instead of paying all those tickets for the 1000 CCP guys with no oratorical skills to be present there, useless...get the major alliances leaders involved, bring them there, and let them ask questions, let them sit at the round table...because they are the ones guiding and leading your customers, they are the ones bringing numbers, fights, losses...they are the ones that directly or indirectly keep the game you're trying to kill still alive.
Tiberizzle
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2015-10-25 12:50:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
Querns wrote:
Combat refitting needs to die. There is no skill involved in switching your modules to tank when you see yellow boxes. No ship should be able to mellifluously mutate to the exact optimal configuration for whatever situation they are in. Your fitting choices should be meaningful.


I disagree very much.

Refitting can absolutely require skill in the form of in-depth fitting knowledge and correct situational prioritization of attributes.

Even something as simple as "Throw on full tank" has stupid many permutations.

What even is full tank???

Is the incoming damage balanced or can you optimize further from omni for it?

Could the incoming damage change, how much should you optimize and leave yourself time to react to a damage type switch?

Can you overheat specific hardeners until burnout then refit fresh ones to buy more time?

Which hardener combinations give you the best omni profile with your native resists, the best trade-off vs other likely damage type swaps?

Which sacrificial heated hardeners give you the most tank for the longest for a particular damage profile?

Could you get bumped and lose the ability to refit, could you get neuted, should some or all of your tank be passive?

If you're active hardened and being neuted should you generate cap, should you inject cap, should you reflect neuting with capacitor battery and get fed cap?

Do you really even need to go full tank or is there enough surplus RR that you could reduce your tank and affect the fight beneficially in some other way?

tl;dr: you can dismiss it as "too powerful" or "too tryhard" but please don't even try to dismiss it as "no skill"

All of these choices are largely congruent to a situation where you can't refit, except they matter even more when you have no replacements.

The small depth of tactical decisions, amplified by the removal of cost associated with changing your modules, in no way is worth the complete neutering of all the strategic decisions involved in picking your fit in the first place.


Yes, the vast strategic depth of waiting to see who can hold off committing longer so you can refit in your staging at the last moment for the advantage surely drowns the insignificant detail of actually familiarizing oneself with the full range of a ship's capabilities and dynamically optimizing the loadout for the situation. P
Aesir Terona
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
Where Are We
#75 - 2015-10-25 12:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aesir Terona
did they get a new furnace installed at CCP HQ? There must be a fume problem in that building, because someone would have to be huffing diesel truck exhaust to think these changes were good.


Thanks for the giant "Screw you" to everyone who trained triage II. Completely uprooting the the triage carrier pilot will go over grand.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-10-25 12:55:01 UTC
xttz wrote:

Does this mean that optionally replacing existing carriers with force aux carriers is on the table?



Mentioned, but not "confirmed" was doing something like any carriers wiht a triage fit at patch day morph into the new ones.

May or may not work like that, but that was mentioned yes.
Titan112
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-10-25 12:55:24 UTC
Some thinks sounds good (new cap mods, rebalancing and immunity). But on the other hand i dislike that you inroduce the new logistic carrier, because i´m enjoy to be a logi and a dmg dealer at the same time. I think this is one of the best to manage your drones and your remote stuff.

ok the fighter changes sounds gut but why you introduce a new system and don´t make it old school and let supper have all drones with an 100 or 200% dmg boost?
Izmaragd Dawnstar
Perkone
Caldari State
#78 - 2015-10-25 12:57:39 UTC
I'm by no means a capital expert, but since I'm mostly flying logistics, the force auxiliary would probably be my next choice.
I'm okay with separating carriers and logistics ships, but restricting remote reps to triage only is a dangerous thing to do. If we consider the subcap version, it's basically if the guardians flying around would be unable to rep other guardians.

I understand that you're looking to reduce the effectiveness of "slowcats" and "wrecking balls", but this is probably a bit overboard.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#79 - 2015-10-25 12:59:54 UTC
"New rapid firing anti-sub-capital weapon batteries are specifically designed to fire at sub-capitals. However their damage will be considerably lower than current XL weapon systems (in the 1 to 2k DPS range on a Sieged Dreadnought)"

I assume that these will be replacing the current extra large guns... If so, isn't this is a massive nerf? In what situation would anyone field a dread, worth billions, to kill sub-caps if it only has the fire power of 2-3 battleships?

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a wormholer and it seems as though there will be no use for dreads outside of pos bashing and instead, I'll be forced to fly a carrier if I want to fly caps in a fight.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#80 - 2015-10-25 12:59:55 UTC
Aesir Terona wrote:

Thanks for the giant "Screw you" to everyone who trained triage II. Completely uprooting the the triage carrier pilot will go over grand.

Maybe you should read the blog before posting rubbish.
Triage modules will be fitted to the Force Auxiliary. They will replace the Logistics Carrier.


ITT - people jumping to conclusions and solid proof you can't please everyone.