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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#421 - 2015-10-24 12:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
So... basically the Punisher is an autocannon ship now...


it does feel like where going backwards somewhat, with new T3's being massively OP and more e-war ships no one wants and amarr laser boats getting cap bonuses back again which people hate and will bypass with blasters as they are so much better

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#422 - 2015-10-24 12:10:32 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:



Plz. For such an expert amarr pilot you should know that oversized props need an agility mod somewhere. With nano, its 14.2s, so the fitting app on my phone was dated which was showing 13s. Still far less than BS agility and the over exaggerated 25s you're claiming.

And no, i don't use implants/links/alts when i solo PvP.

http://imgur.com/PFgccua


I did specifically say that was it's align time with only the AB fit. That's still battleship agility. The align time number you're looking at in your EFT is the time to get to 75% max velocity so it takes longer than the displayed number to get to that full potential speed.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:



To answer something you mentioned about autocannons and rifters having better projection. Here is the 10mn punisher and a 200mm dual ambit rig rifter. Punisher beat its out at edge of scram range, which is all that matters really. Punisher has better tank, better dps, better range and still has range control if webbed. As its only 200m/s slower than non webbed rifter. Using OH will allow you to pull range and get hits in.

Yes if the rifter pilot also uses OH he can keep up, but this requires knowledge/skill/proper overview to pull off. So its not quite so one sided as a 1mn punisher vs a 1mn rifter.


I said a punisher fit with bigger autocannons, not beams like in your pic.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

tormentor has considerably less PG. So buffer is one issue. But it can't use 10mn fits, which is debatable if thats a good or bad thing.


If you're wasting all that extra grid and more on an oversized afterburner I really don't see the point.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

However, you claiming oversized AB are a joke are sadly mistaken. When used properly with decent fits they work very well in a solo environment. Theres more to oversized fits than agility, and its the ability to get out of scram range and kill tackle easily. I've even used 100mn battlecruisers, which have killed linked worms, succubus, svipuls etc. I've used 10mn retributions to scram kite kestrels and other frigs with webs. I've even used 10mn punishers. There are downfalls to using it yes, but if you know what you're doing it can be managed.


They see a lot of use on ships that have AB bonuses (tech 3 cruisers, sansha ships) and on the T3Ds which have big velocity/inertia bonuses. They work on those ships because of the bonuses and because of mass/inertia relationship.

The bigger the ship, the bigger the mass. Most people understand that. A lot of people don't notice that propulsion mods add mass, and an oversized propulsion mod adds tons of mass that the ship wasn't designed for. It turns most ships into bricks.

A punisher is not a confessor. It doesn't have the ability to switch to propulsion mode and go super fast with a big bonus to agility enabling it to turn faster than it should. It's also not a strategic cruiser with a subsystem buffing afterburners.



Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Then why don't you start saying that instead of persisting on the 2 mid syndrome. All i've seen is complaining about having 2 mids, and how it doesn't have range or range control.

[/quote]

Then you've not been reading the thread. I have been debunking the people coming into this thread saying the punisher in it's current iteration is 'fine' or that the proposed changes to the punisher make it 'good'.

It's a bad ship and these current changes won't change that. The tormentor is a good ship now and is the better option in everything but pure buffer.

Just like how when the abaddon was introduced. We had three laser battleships. The geddon was cursed by low fittings and less mids, and the apoc had no purpose in the game because it had a laser cap usage and a cap recharge bonus. So the apoc wasn't an option and we had a new gun boat that was super easy to fit and had an extra mid over the geddon...with the geddon being a little more ganky thanks to it's drones.

Now we have three battleships with different roles. While I would have argued the abaddon would have made the better drone boat and the geddon could have stayed the ganky option, I see the changes as positive.

The punisher on the other hand is in a whole other place. It's less ganky and midslot starved in a class of ships where midslots are king.

'oh but templar, it's tanky'

And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.

If on the other hand, you brought more gank/utility to the fight rather than a punisher maybe you'd have been able to dps down their logi and/or disrupt their ewar.

I know these ships, I've been an amarr ship specialist the entire time I've been playing this game. This is my youngest main character and I picked amarr because they were the underdog. Oh sure I've gotten drunk and confused accounts and used non-amarr ships...and fairly recently lifted my own prohibition on the half-amarr pirate ships and such. I know them like the back of my hand. Every time I see someone in a punisher and not a tormentor it peeves me off a bit because I know that ****** is only in it so he will be the last one to go down and can get on every killmail, rather than be in a good ship and contributing more.

Hell, I use the punisher even now. The only reason I use it is because it's crap and everyone knows it, so it's easier to get a fight in one.

But being crap so you can get fights is a pretty bad role for a ship to have. Please, CCP, make it good at something. None of this jack of no trades, master of none.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#423 - 2015-10-24 14:36:58 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#424 - 2015-10-24 17:45:40 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#425 - 2015-10-24 20:44:09 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:


But being crap so you can get fights is a pretty bad role for a ship to have. Please, CCP, make it good at something. None of this jack of no trades, master of none.




The thing is the tor is a jack of all trades, master of none which is why it is good. The punisher is specialized, its is focused mainly on one thing.


While **** atm, the new punisher will have its uses, in a beam fit with a armor buffer it will do good dps with good range with a good tank and will probably be the best t1 frigate for armor fleets with logis. Its a low skill thing for fcs in fw to put noobs in so they dont die instantly, as long as it will do decent dps with decent ehp for low sp it wont be useless. It wont be a good solo ship (depends on how good its at kiting), but it will be alright i guess.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#426 - 2015-10-24 21:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Templar Dane wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong.

The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or cruiser and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high.

I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#427 - 2015-10-25 01:12:27 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


If you brought a punisher for tackle you did something wrong.

The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high.

I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.

If its heavy tackle why can a thorax outrun it while its tackled?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2015-10-25 01:25:10 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


Or he got there late, the target left and the gang are peeved at him
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#429 - 2015-10-25 01:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitor

anybody remember this?

we need the missile line REBORN in amarr t1 frigates. 3 laser ships is ********. we need the missile LINE BACK!!!!!!!

make it the punisher. pleaseeeeeeeeee

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.


how would it be a confusing set of bread crumbs amarr frigate V is almost certainly one of the first t2 vessiles pilots will fly. and that opens up the 2 missile frigates, the malediction and the vengeance (purifier to an extent). and even if the pilot goes for destroyer 5 the ONLY t2 destroyer amarr has access to is a missile/rocket based destroyer.

Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#430 - 2015-10-25 01:49:23 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high.

I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.


Dual ASB breacher, dual rep incursus, brick tanked merlin. They can do bait while not appearing as obvious, and they can solo.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#431 - 2015-10-25 06:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
ColdBeauty wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


And being midslot starved automatically relegates it to gang work since it has no projection bonus. In a gang your tank doesn't matter until you're being shot at, and if a tanky ship is being shot at........your ewar is dead, your logi is dead, your dps is dead......and you're the last guy on the field.

What's the tank going to matter at that point? The fight is lost. You're just going to die 20% slower.





If a tackler is the last ship on the field he's done his job well


Or he got there late, the target left and the gang are peeved at him


I didn't mean roaming gangs who still want their fast tackle, I was thinking more of pitched fights like faction war plex brawls, sometimes you want a few people hero tackling on the beacon if they can't fly the doctrine, and these can be fit so cheap and so tanky even with low skills they should be good in pubby fleets. If you have logi and links they can do stupid things, you can have 23k ehp + 160/184dps + sig radius of 24 + overheated mwd speed of 2572/ 3563m/s for 4.5mil each

[Punisher, Punisher fit]

Micro Auxillary Power Core I
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


You could drop one of the blasters and fit a neut if you like, you can alternate webs and scrams through the gang, you could mix them up with fast tackle like derptrons, or slashers with sensor damps/tracking disruptors and neuts.

For solo I think they need the tracking bonus in place of the cap usage bonus or they'll be better with anything but lasers. no web + no tracking bonus + lasers + slow hull might be unworkable.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#432 - 2015-10-25 10:56:40 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.


Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around.

The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that.

Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.
Ray P
Unquestionable Prosperity
Commonwealth Vanguard
#433 - 2015-10-25 13:36:25 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:


For solo I think they need the tracking bonus in place of the cap usage bonus or they'll be better with anything but lasers. no web + no tracking bonus + lasers + slow hull might be unworkable.


For solo pretty much all t1 frigs are becoming unworkable. bad enough now but after the changes you can add two more ewar cancer ships to the meta of cancer and aids.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#434 - 2015-10-25 15:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.


Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around.

The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that.

Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.

i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned.

Punisher
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to rocket rate of fire
4% bonus to all armor resistances

Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 38(+1)

The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon

But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen)

And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices.

Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please.

Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#435 - 2015-10-25 20:35:58 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

The punisher is good at heavy tackle; it's one of the few t1 frigates that can effectively lock onto a destroyer or frigate and hold it on field long enough for secondary tackle or for dps to take it down, although admittedly this role goes down the toilet somewhat with the removal of a utility high.

I'd like to say that i'd prefer that the Punisher gets backup drones as long as the Tormentor gets a range bonus. I agree with you in the fact that the current proposal is kind of crap and they can definitely find a better role for it, although i'm not of the opinion that it needs a 3rd mid to accomplish that.


Dual ASB breacher, dual rep incursus, brick tanked merlin. They can do bait while not appearing as obvious, and they can solo.

I meant to say cruiser tackle. Merlin has issues with sig radius and shields have a lower resist profile overall vs armor, and the breacher is better at skirmishes at frigates. Destroyers and well-placed hits from cruiser weapons can alpha right through its reps fairly easily. The Punisher excels at tackling larger targets due to the utility high, low sig radius and high resists. Having a nosferatu on your punisher is ideal when tackling cruiser or larger ships with neuts on them.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#436 - 2015-10-25 20:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.


Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around.

The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that.

Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.

i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned.

Punisher
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to rocket rate of fire
4% bonus to all armor resistances

Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 38(+1)

The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon

But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen)

And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices.

Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please.

Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that.


TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#437 - 2015-10-25 20:59:35 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.


Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around.

The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that.

Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.

i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned.

Punisher
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to rocket rate of fire
4% bonus to all armor resistances

Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 38(+1)

The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon

But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen)

And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices.

Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please.

Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that.


TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr.


No. the arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history. ccp would never 'upgrade' the cruicifer in the way you want it to be. they will make it extremely meatyoker at best. just like the arbitrator. the geddon was a fluke on ccp's balance part. When they took away the armageddons uniqueness and made another battleship with 8 lows there was rioting and the only way they were going to fix that was by making the arma NOT suck. its very comparable in combat just like its counterparts except the arbitrator is extremely subpar to its counterparts.

drones are not the answer.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
KitCat 01
Based And Redpilled.
Till Doomsday
#438 - 2015-10-26 02:53:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The Firetail now matches the Fleet Stabber and Fleet Hurricane tracking bonus!


Are you considering giving the same bonus to the Tempest Fleet Issue?


Please say yes! ...
Please say yes! ...
Please say yes! ...
Please say yes! ...
Please say yes! ...
Please say yes! ...
...
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#439 - 2015-10-26 13:49:42 UTC
I'm not sure why people are talking about the return of the Autocannon Punisher. Everybody knows Hybrids are the most popular turret right now. It's time for the rise of the kitey Rail Punisher.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#440 - 2015-10-26 19:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Not having a missile frigate in the line is what is a confusing set of bread crumbs for new pilots. as they get into ships like the retribution or the crusader and wonder why these ships are total trash.

quiet frankly if your concerned about the t1 line up. how about fixing the amarr being the only race with combat cruisers using the same weapon system? while each other race enjoys missiles/drones/hybrid/projectile mix ups.


Actually good points. There seems to be a lot of space still to introduce new, awesome looking ships to diversify choice and probably introduce counters to established favourites around.

The Punisher with rockets would be pretty darn perfect. Lots of cap, lots of tank, a few changes again to PG/CPU and you had a newbro-brawler with a 400mm plate+AAR and resist bonus, directly translating to the vengeance. Then there'd be a choice for lasers (Executioner), lasers+drones (Torm for the advanced user with more diverse SP), mainly drones on the crucifier whose slot layout actually makes for a good solo ship even and lastly the punisher as a resilent missile boat that anyone can fly successfully by sticking within x km and firing missiles. Every newbro gets that.

Mildly focused on the newbro aspect cause why would you ever fly a punisher if you can fly a tormentor instead. And none of those laserboats are particularily SP friendly with their requirements in the capacitor and gunnery sector.

i wouldnt suggest the current punisher just get a blatent rocket bonus. more like it be redesigned.

Punisher
Amarr Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to rocket rate of fire
4% bonus to all armor resistances

Slot layout: 3(-1) H, 3(+1) M, 4 L, 3(+3) Launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 50(-7) PWG, 160(+33) CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 350 / 550(+50) / 450
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 275(-125) / 135s/ 2s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 355 / 2.9 / 1,290,000 (+100000) / 5 / 4.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 38(+1)

The puni should keep is res bonus. to keep its combat ship line of. punisher/maller/prophecy/abaddon

But with this it will get slower, loose alot of its capacitor to become like like the old rocket inquisitor but still retain a fast recharge rate. With the rof bonus it wouldn't be a dps powerhouse however over time the tankier ship and over time dps will make this a much used choice for small scale pvp. it will loose its utility high and gain a 3rd mid to maintain similarity with the maller and abaddon(no utility unless chosen)

And then the maller should be redesigned to use launchers. so that amarr isnt stuck with only laser boats for cruiser combat choices.

Really fozzie, the amarr frigate line up needs missiles brought back. it makes no sense to have 3 laser combat frigate choices. the punisher needs this change. or redesign the tormentor to be the missile ship. but something please.

Yeah im not an expert at judging what is overpowered and what isnt. but really think outside the box. amarr NEED this. it isnt fair that every other race in the game enjoys weapon system mix ups in their frigate line. You cannot seriously tell me that the amarr military people got together and decided this would be a good idea to have 3 energy frigates. Nobody thinks like that. Nobody would limit themselves to that.


TBH i think the issue lies more in them not having a proper drone boat in the frigate lineup. I'd rather see them upgrade the Crucifier to use drones in a similar manner to the Arbitrator and Geddon, except with something like an HP and speed bonus. I'd prefer to see that translate over to the Navy Crucifier when it comes out as well, lending to a a very versatile line of ewar frigs for amarr.


No. the arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history. ccp would never 'upgrade' the cruicifer in the way you want it to be. they will make it extremely meatyoker at best. just like the arbitrator. the geddon was a fluke on ccp's balance part. When they took away the armageddons uniqueness and made another battleship with 8 lows there was rioting and the only way they were going to fix that was by making the arma NOT suck. its very comparable in combat just like its counterparts except the arbitrator is extremely subpar to its counterparts.

drones are not the answer.

"The arbitrator is probably the least used cruiser in history". The arby was and remains a very popular solo cruiser; especially a few years back. It was fit primarily with a good number of neuts and wrecks utter havoc on frigate gangs. People generally just forgo the TD entirely on it, and it is only seeing less usage now due to the prevalence of the Vexor and its counterparts.

In regards to the armageddon, the changed it in the way they did to fall in line with the progression the have going starting with the Dragoon. My point stands that tracking disruptor bonuses are not exactly all that useful on t1 ships by themselves, so the crucifier getting drone bonuses or even getting drones and neut range like the Dragoon would be ideal.