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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4681 - 2015-10-23 22:05:59 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#4682 - 2015-10-23 22:25:46 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.

"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you.

Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me.


Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me?

Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta...Roll
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4683 - 2015-10-23 22:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Havenard wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I think the simpleton is in your mirror, since I was describing an arms race.

"I want to buy skills to compete" is useless when the competitors also can buy them and have the expertise and experience to invest their money better than you.

Yeah, sure, arms race. I'm sure someone will pick you, as individual, and train exclusively things that counter you (there must be a lot). And this guy is a rich veteran, that for some reason doesn't already have skills to fly whatever he wants trained, he needs to buy a lot of SP tokens for that. Yeah, looks like a very realistic scenario to me.


Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me?

Lo que la naturaleza no da, Salamanca no lo presta...Roll

noobs have skills for competing, vets have expirence for outcompeting. So it is beneficial for both sides. Anything else?
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4684 - 2015-10-23 22:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me?

Microscopic analysis of the problem, almost implying it has such impact on PVP that is like someone could adapt their skills in the middle of the combat (even if their could, what impact would it have?). Stop pushing this unrealistic expectation, you are making fool of yourself.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4685 - 2015-10-23 22:44:33 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Allegedly, "Noobs" want skills to compete with "vets" but "vets" also could buy them if they need to and nullify the skills bought by "noobs". Who is talking about me?

Microscopic analysis of the problem, almost implying it has such impact on PVP that is like someone could adapt their skills in the middle of the combat (even if their could, what impact would it have?). Stop pushing this unrealistic expectation, you are making fool of yourself.

Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#4686 - 2015-10-23 23:25:07 UTC
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.

The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#4687 - 2015-10-23 23:34:09 UTC
Gaufres wrote:
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.

The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.


Sasha was my first character, first choice. The skill packets would allow me to stay with my choice and get the skills I feel I "need" to move forward. So Sasha would live on, as my first choice for character, with all the consequences attached to her.

Now the character bazaar is exactly what you wish it wasn't, maybe you need to revise your perspective.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4688 - 2015-10-23 23:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Gaufres wrote:

You made your choices, live with them.
....
Bad history is just that, Live with it.

So I must live with consequences of actions what I never comitied because you told so?
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4689 - 2015-10-23 23:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Gaufres wrote:
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.

The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.

Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone.

Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed.

Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players.

CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices.

To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4690 - 2015-10-24 01:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Havenard wrote:
Gaufres wrote:
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.

The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.

Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone.

Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed.

Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players.

CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices.

To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown.


So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.

And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4691 - 2015-10-24 02:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.

And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player.


I'm not the one failing to bring up a good reason. You try to point many ways this could negatively affect EVE, but all I see is irrational fear, people picturing scenarios that are far from realistic, implying this will only benefict veteran players, implying every rich player in EVE will spend all their money to absorb the collective SP of everyone else as if this was a Agar.io match.

Wake the f*ck up. Nobody is going to trade their hard earned SP for crumbs and go back to flying Ventures, new players want SP too, many will use the system only to redistribute their own SP without giving it to anyone else, and the diminishing returns makes the whole deal a bazilian times more interesting to newbros than veterans, not only because they get up to 10 times more SP, but also because 50k SP to veterans don't help with sh*t.

When I first saw the post I had my concerns too, but I gave thought to the subject and consolidated a rational opinion. You should do that too. Take the benefics in consideration, not only what you think that could go wrong. Try to see the whole picture, and stop entertaining scenarios that are clearly fantasious.
Tupac ice
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#4692 - 2015-10-24 02:34:17 UTC
I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.

I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)

People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.

People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.

Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.

I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.

So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).

I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.

o7

Tupac





Who the hell is this Tupac guy.... And what would he know?

  • Anonymous.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4693 - 2015-10-24 02:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Tupac ice wrote:
I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.

I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)

People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.

People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.

Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.

I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.

So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).

I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.

o7

Tupac



This would benefict being online just for the sake of being online, those who can't stay online 24/7 would feel harmed, also, people would feel repelled from doing their normal ingame activities because if their undock the skill they want so bad will stop training fast... no, thats a terrible approach to the problem. Even paying extra to train faster looks better than this.

I hate slow training queues, but if theres one good aspect to it is exactly that what I'm training has zero impact over what I want to do with my time in the game.

Actually, this approach doesn't access the problem at all, since the whole idea here is to give means to redistribute and commercialize SP as asset, and extend the functionality of the character bazaar to something more flexible where people can trade their training time without having to give away an entire character.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#4694 - 2015-10-24 03:20:54 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Gaufres wrote:
As most of the Forum Trolls are so fond of saying, Risk vs Reward and Choices Have Consequences. I am completely opposed to this sort of Character Modification. You made your choices, live with them.

The same with Character Sales. Do your research before buying. Bad history is just that, Live with it.

Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone.

Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed.

Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players.

CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices.

To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown.

"bigots" ? you might want to look up the meaning of words before committing them to your post.

Ok, I'll be happy to sell my unwanted SP to new players using CCP's proposal.
It will be available on the market for 1 billion isk per 500k.


New players aren't the only ones who want to be able to fly different or better ships. I can't fly a blops battleship, yet with this proposal a new character can skill into one 400k SP at a time, quite quickly. Yet for me to do the same, I have to buy 8 packs for every one he does. Balanced?

If CCP want to start selling SP, older players should not be penalized. Having to pay 10 times more than a new guy for the same SP, simply because I have already dedicated X amount of years to Eve?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4695 - 2015-10-24 03:24:44 UTC
Could I suggest that the concept be considered in conjunction with skill sinks (currently T3)?

Stacking SP mechanisms invites development of destacking SP mechanisms.

I mention this as a consideration to take as adding neuro degeneration for certain events may be a desirable game play function once regaining skill point losses immediately is possible.

Just keep that possibility in mind when weighing the pros and cons is all I ask.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4696 - 2015-10-24 04:52:30 UTC
Tupac ice wrote:
I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.

I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)

People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.

People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.

Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.

I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.

So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).

I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.

o7

Tupac







Good post. Even though I disagree with the details II would support a method which rewards new players and an sp boost. As long as it won't be readily abused by veterans alts and done in a way that helps and educates new players. Something like a mission that requires they smuggle something in/out of lowsec, or kill a class 1 sleeper or complete a site with another player etc. Sat of tutorial missions which will encourage newbies to take on risks, engage with other players, ask for help, information, etc. And as a reward receive 500k-1m unallocated sp for each set or whatever.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Octoven
Noir Holdings
#4697 - 2015-10-24 05:22:02 UTC
Not really seeing too much of a problem with this change. Often times CCP makes changes to the game that massively affect your character. For example, changing the roles or weapons on a ship. If you trained your character for that specific ship and/or role, you now have wasted not only skills but time and money. This is especially more noticed in T2 and larger ships when skill training times start to really hurt.

So according to the ones against this proposal, you would argue that players should suck it up and live with the consequences of training into a ship that may take half a year or so to train into. Ok, lets take that under advisement, I can understand some level of responsibility with making skill training mistakes and it being based on the consequences of your actions. However, on the other hand, said player could not have foreseen a massive change to their favorite ship. So now they must waste more time and skills to train into another ship that supports the role they want to play, why should the player be penalized because the developer chooses to wreck their day by dropping a sweeping changes dev blog?

The other side to this is money, many may think, why should a player buy SPs with real cash? I should remind you that you are already doing that right now as we speak. Yes, subscription cost comes with many perks like playing the game, accessing the forums, and such. However, the real value in the $15/month is in the skill training. How many have left their accounts subbed whilst they took a break from EvE to simply keep skills being trained? SPs already = money, this option is just allowing you to advance it in incremental burst.

Aside from PLEX cost, these Skill Packets are traded through the market, thus players set the value to which they believe their skills are worth. In all honesty it is no different from buying a character off the bazar, you are paying $20 to purchase a character with millions of SPs, some worth it some not, and paying with in game currency as well. How is that ANY different from the proposal? Other than the fact that you are getting useless skills with the character not related to what you want it for, being forced to use a name and history that you have no idea of...in all honesty we are ALREADY buying SPs. I know a guy, I kid you not 4 days into EVE bought a character with 60mil SPs on it. Has no bloody clue how to use it or the stuff it can fly. This proposal is only allowing us to weed out the useless SPs we don't need and trading them to someone who does. Seems amicable to me.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4698 - 2015-10-24 05:27:25 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
So now we're bigots because you can't come up with a good reason that has not been dispelled by the players. We just see the many ways this will negatively affect eve. If you can't see and understand that because you're too closed minded that's not our fault.

And BTW, you're a year old. Stop talking like you're a newbie. You're almost the same age as the average eve player.


I'm not the one failing to bring up a good reason. You try to point many ways this could negatively affect EVE, but all I see is irrational fear, people picturing scenarios that are far from realistic, implying this will only benefict veteran players, implying every rich player in EVE will spend all their money to absorb the collective SP of everyone else as if this was a Agar.io match.

Wake the f*ck up. Nobody is going to trade their hard earned SP for crumbs and go back to flying Ventures, new players want SP too, many will use the system only to redistribute their own SP without giving it to anyone else, and the diminishing returns makes the whole deal a bazilian times more interesting to newbros than veterans, not only because they get up to 10 times more SP, but also because 50k SP to veterans don't help with sh*t.

When I first saw the post I had my concerns too, but I gave thought to the subject and consolidated a rational opinion. You should do that too. Take the benefics in consideration, not only what you think that could go wrong. Try to see the whole picture, and stop entertaining scenarios that are clearly fantasious.


They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#4699 - 2015-10-24 05:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Fenix
I have been waiting a while for OP capitals and OP stations
Looking forward to these changes. This is really going to shake up the static eve universe.
Make way for some new bros and sisters.

P.S.
CCP, I can only spend 100k USD a year on this game, so please keep the pricing low.

#Soup

Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4700 - 2015-10-24 05:58:47 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
They are far from fantasy. I guess you haven't been around in EVE long enough to know just how crazy EVE players can be. This goes beyond those scenarios. I don't understand why simply giving out free SP for certain missions arcs or whatever is not better than this.

You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism.

Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system.