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My thoughts so far on this:

t1 frig changes look nice and well-placed, excepting the amarr ships. I will reiterate the position of many people here that the laser capacitor bonus is both a crutch for amarr ships holding them back, and fairly useless on top of it. Here are my thoughts on what should be done for not only the frigates, but the rest of the subcap laser lineup as well (lasers seriously aren't as OP as you keep thinking they are; so use this opportunity to stop the madness finally)

-Instead of making the Punisher a special snowflake with an extra slot, consider this: the only thing seriously holding back laser ship usage is that stupid, stupid cap bonus on it. So instead of effectively wasting an entire bonus, why not just increase the capacitor amount/regen by appropriate levels to compensate? Amarr power systems are the most advanced in the cluster by most accounts, and negating most of the cap usage bonuses by increasing their cap regen all around would DEFINITELY fit in with not only the lore, but balanced gameplay as well.
A 5% firing rate bonus with 5 low slots and only 3 highs would suit the punisher just fine as long as it was compensated with an appropriate increase in capacitor regeneration. it gives better dps than before and balances it out with being a little cap hungry and more vulnerable with neuts, which is fine if you're giving a frigate 5 low slots to work with.

-As for the tormentor, go the same route and do away with the cap bonus and increase the cap regen/amount. Drop the drone bay entirely and give it an optimal range bonus This gives it a CLEAR role as a cheap sniper boat and very favorable ship to use in fleet settings, as well as a capable solo kiter that works as a cheap alternative to the slicer. This gives clear distinctions to each ship for the type of engagements they're good at and a clear route to fit and handle them in.

-Even though it's not on the list, the Executioner deserves a mention since it suffers from this cap bonus madness as well. A tracking bonus would be perfectly suitable on the ships as it would fit in well with its high-speed interception role, at long or short ranges. It would also be a good progression into the omen which i'll be talking about in a bit.

-Bring back the firing rate bonus for light missiles on the Malediction. It was epic, and there was literally nothing wrong with it. You'll be needing to update the Vengeance for light missiles anyway when you work on AFs, so might as well make us all happy and bring back a good thing.

-The Coercer would be the only one that would be fine with the cap bonus. It uses a full rack of 8 guns so the cap bonus is useful, and a damage bonus would be silly with how much damage it already does.

-The Omen is a great example of how to *almost* get a ship right. Medium lasers are in the best place out of the entire medium weapon lineup so they don't exactly suffer on the omen, but there is still quite a bit of room for improvement here. Thoughts here would be to go the same route with dropping the cap bonus in favor of base capacitor/cap regen increase, and getting a tracking bonus instead. This gives it excellent viability as an attack cruiser, and to compensate we can move the drone bay for the Omen over to the Maller, and drop the drone bay entirely on the Omen since you seem to love drones more on maller-class hulls due to unusual amount of drones you appear to be adding to the Sacrilege for some reason, and the continued lack of a drone bay on the Zealot (consistency is good). The tracking bonus falls in line with Thorax and the Caracal depending on what your thoughts are on missiles. Dropping the drones on the Omen entirely for a tracking bonus is good balance since it still leaves it fairly vulnerable to tracking disruption from frigates, but it will be excellent against smaller ships in the same way RLM caracals are currently.

-The Maller is great as a classical tank in any setting, and would only benefit from getting a drone bay. Since we're not likely to see either the Omen or the Maller get a 4th mid slot (as they well shouldn't), it's not to crazy in the least to give it the current 25/40 drone bay the omen enjoys to better defend against frigates. The extra dps should be welcome too.

-The Omen navy issue is fairly decent as it stands, but i'm of the firm opinion that it should get a low slot move to a mid slot. The option for an extra web, shield tank, or more tracking comps for sniper build would be invaluable and would line up perfectly with its utility role, making it immensely popular.

-Drop the Zealot's cap usage bonus for a tracking speed bonus. With all the oodles of capacitor you gave the HACs it's literally the most redundant ship bonus in the game...

-Keeping the cap bonuses on the Harbinger and its variants would be absolutely fine as is; the recent changes to battlecruisers with projection and their ample fitting slots makes them perfectly viable as is in the same way the coercer is set up.

-The Oracle gets two bonuses wasted on cap. Bump up the cap regen by an appropriate amount, and give it a range or tracking speed bonus.

-For the Armageddon Navy issue, go the whole 9 yards and swap that useless capacitor bonus out for a drone damage and HP bonus. You can even keep the current cap levels to make it more vulnerable to neuts, but I am DEFINITELY of the opinion that the cap bonus needs to go away. The minmatar and caldari navy faction ships are IMMENSELY powerful, and this would really only be bringing them in line with the rest of the bunch.

Thus ends my amarr-specific rant.

EDIT: If you want to have a drawback for all these buff, consider an agility/speed nerf along with scan res. With all that armor on they should be pretty clunky, and their sensors use radar.

Thoughts on caldari ships here:

-Great job on the Osprey navy issue, but you completely forgot about what's wrong with the Hookbill (extra dps is going to be nice, no problem there). The hookbill remains fairly cripplied by its poor fitting options, and is subsequently locked into using rockets if it wants to support anything resembling an effective tank (or having enough room to effectively use all its mid slots without loading up on fitting mods and rigs, which is remarkably difficult to do compared to its counterparts). an extra 10 base powergrid and 15 CPU would be absolutely perfect, as it would allow for full light missile usability WITH tank, and without having to rely on all those extra fitting mods and rigs for a crutch.

-Please swap out the Kestrel's damage bonus for a firing rate bonus. It would be more in line with progression, and it needs the extra dps to be competitive. Thank you.

-The Corax suffers from the same crippling lack of fitting space as the hookbill. Going with the same +10 PG and +15 CPU would put it in a very strong position, making it competitive with the Thrasher and Coercer.

I would also like to take a moment to talk about your outlook on destroyers at the time being, because giving them a little love here would be perfect for all these balance passes you're making, and put a stronger clamp down on the power creep and kite meta with frigates that's been going on. Give ALL destroyers (except t3) an extra fitting slot. This ensures their strength over frigates as being their natural predator, and actually falls in line with what i'm assuming you were planning on doing anyway during your release of the new t1 destroyers a few years back, as indicated by the models. Here's how it goes:
Catalyst and Eris get an extra mid slot; Cormorant gets an extra mid, Flycatcher gets an extra low; Coercer and Heretic get extra low slots, as do the Thrasher and Sabre.
This gives them all a straight upgrade in power, and with most of them they already have decent enough fitting space to take advantage of that without too much trouble (minus the corax, which would be getting the extra fitting as previously outlined).

-Giving the Caracal Navy Issue a bit stronger capacitor and more fitting space would be ideal; it struggles somewhat to fit a tank on top of all those missile launchers, so giving it abundant fitting space and capacitor would make an extremely solid combat craft for a variety of situations.

-To be honest, the Moa kind of sucks as a pvp boat right now. Hybrids have either poor range or poor tracking, so while it can do fantastic dps as a blaster brawler and makes a solid fleet sniper, it is still extremely vulnerable to frigates in either setting. Giving it a full flight of light drones would be excellent (although admittedly unorthodox) for a caldari cruiser, as the only real alternative to improving upon it would be dropping the shield resist bonus for an optimal range bonus, which is not ideal anyway you turn it.

-The Crow and Raptor could use some love. The Raptor needs some serious help in the capacitor department, and the Crow's fitting space is abysmal. Other than that, their bonuses and slots are fine.

-I am still of the firm opinion that caldari ewar ships (and ewar ships in general) should get a solid combat bonus. While the frigates should maintain good range projection and mobility, I think there's room for making the t1 electronic warfare ships in this game a little more capable. Drop the range bonuses on the Blackbird and Scorpion, then give them both 10% kinetic damage bonuses to size-appropriate missiles per level as well Giving them a full rack of missile launchers (dropping the turrets slots) and some more drones to round them out. We can all agree ecm needs to be fixed, but what i want to focus on and expound as necessary is making ALL the cruiser-up size electronic warfare ships combat capable in the same way the amarr and minmatar ones are. Plus I think the Blackbird and Scorpion would be pretty damn cool as combat ships in their own right.

-Move a low from the Rokh to a mid slot. TBH the only thing that would really change if need be for most people would be a tracking enhancer for a tracking comp, and a lot of people would benefit IMMENSELY from having 7 mid slots on the rokh in the same way the Raven did when it saw its balance pass. Giving it an even stronger potential for a brick tank in pvp would help it remain competitive as well.

How many of those cap bonus ships also don't have a tracking or dmg bonus also?

redeemer , absolution, coercer, omen, revelation, tormentor, executioner, zealot,devoter,crusader,confessor,armageddon navy, oracle, harbinger, retribution.
All the ships listed above have the cap bonus and either a tracking or dmg bonus also.

punisher will be the only ship that has a cap use bonus and not a dmg bonus or tracking bonus.

i think the only reason an amarr laser boat should have the cap bonus is when they have a full set of turrets in the highs and has a strong application bonus, plus a good dronebay.

Thoughts on Gallente ships here:

-Tristan speed reduction was needed, but the tracking bonus is weird with only 2 guns. Maybe you could give the tracking bonus over to the Incursus, and give the repair bonus to the Tristan, along with a 3rd turret, or drop a high for a low? Blasters don't exactly need help in the tracking department, and the tracking speed would be better suited on one of the other frigates as a rail platform.

-The Atron really doesn't need a falloff bonus, as it does absolutely nothing for railguns. I'd say give it a tracking speed bonus, as it would help with close-range fights just as well as kiting with rails; the Taranis and Comet are a good example of how to make tracking speed bonuses work considering how well they work with railguns.

-The Incursus would probably benefit from an optimal range bonus and a little extra speed, in place of the slower, tankier setup we currently see. A single optimal range bonus would help it out a lot in fleet settings as it has ample low slots for a variety of tasks, and the rep bonus forces people to choose between a cap booster or a webifier in the mid, which so often ends badly for blaster boats in solo fights if they don't fit the web. The repair bonus would just work so much better on the Tristan, and a long-range rail sniper would be very good, and consistent with its AF counterparts.

-The Ares is in a bit of a rough spot without its damage bonus, but it doesn't exactly need one in the same way the Taranis does tbh. I'd say take the two drones off of the Taranis and give it to the Ares, and move a low from the Ares into a high along with an extra turret slot. This puts them more in-line roughly with dps, but gives the Ares a more clear role with kiting and railguns, and the Taranis with close-range blasters as per Duvolle tradition.

-As stated in the previous post with caldari ships, the Catalyst kind of needs an extra slot, and that would go into the mid. Barring that, I'd say drop 2 turrets and a high slot, and give it the mid slot it needs. Giving it a damage bonus instead of falloff would be more than adequate, and its utility high slot would open up a lot of fun options, as would having 3 mids and 3 lows like the algos (which doesn't need any help in the slightest right now).

Before I get into cruisers for gallente (and subsequently minmatar in the next post), i'd like to lay out something i think was strangely missing from the cruiser lineup for minmatar and gallente: tanking bonuses for t1. Amarr and Caldari enjoy resist bonuses, and gallente and minmatar enjoy local repair bonuses. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for these at all as long as they're appropriately compensated for, which they would be with losing a combat bonus for a tanking one.

-As per my previous post in the Caldari bit about wanting full combat viability with ewar ships cruiser and up, i'd like to give the Celestis a drone damage and HP bonus, as we see with the Arbitrator. I think removing the range bonus in favor of this would be fine as long as they introduced lowslot modules for increasing effective range for ECM, Damps, TDs, and Target Painters. Having a holistic approach to EWAR in the same way we do weapons now would be appropriate, and with the state ewar balance is in right now, a safe place to be would be buffing the base t1 ships by giving the option to CHOOSE between a stronger combat or fleet EWAR support role. Range modules for them would help with that immensely i think, as it would help mitigate the lost range from the Blackbird and Celestis in favor of their combat bonuses, as well as give them and others better fleet options. So a damp strength bonus and a 10% bonus to drone HP and damage with a 75/125 drone bay would be appropriate i believe.

-I think the Vexor should drop its hybrid damage bonus in favor of an armor repair bonus. This would let it run pretty much like a pocket Myrmidon, and give it good survivability as the solo ship it currently enjoys being favored as, while trading off dps.

-Move the repair bonus on the Deimos to the Ishtar, replacing the Ishtar's sentry drone optimal range and tracking speed bonus for a repair bonus. You can even give sentries the 10% damage and hp amount they had before if it makes you feel better.

-Replace the Deimos' repair bonus for tracking speed, same as the Thorax.

-Myrmidon gets 125mbit drone bandwidth so it can use a full flight of heavies. It doesn't exactly NEED it, but it's floundering a bit after the bc balance pass and losing its 6th turret back in the day.

-Increase the base PG of the Brutix and Brutix Navy Issue

-Dominix navy issue should get the same bonuses as the t1 domi gets, except with more drone space. The slot layout more than makes up for it.

-For both the Megathron and Megathron Navy issue, drop a turret and change the firing rate bonus to 10% damage per level. You get two utility highs out of the mega navy issue WITH the the tracking bonus intact, meaning you can seriously ruin someone's day if you're rolling with 2 neuts on top of it. The utility would be very important to consider.

-For the Hyperion, give all those drones back to the megathron. It was fine before.

other the the fact that laser dont do more dmg. they are in the middle. of the pack.

this is going back to the old punisher where it was a better boat with ac's on it.

First up, the punisher went from 3.75 to 4 turrets with that change. Then take a look. Given you are mid starved, you won't dictate range. Good thing you don't have to, cause you got scorch!

The punisher is just the better AC boat compared to a rifter (more effective turrets) unless you desperately need that tracking bonus, a laser punisher is still more practical then an AC punisher. As far as damage goes for the punisher, you'll be looking at 225dps with conflag (2 HS + volley rig) roughly, this is on par with an incursus/atron. While the punisher will remain crippled for some flight styles with only 2 mids, no other ship besides the Kestrel has newbro-friendly written on top of it this explicitly.

Tracking bonus on a punisher would be stupidly OP in its class. Demanding a damage bonus on top of being the one frig with 4 turret hardpoints though casts a really poor light on you.

Not to mention a 10mn beam punisher will take advantage of that cap bonus and still have good projection/damage. With a 10mn AB speed is around 2.1k cold before speed mods. Even if you are webbed, you are still faster than a frigate with a web/ab, especially if you OH when they burn in. Use beams to have consistent damage while you burn away and then be out of range of their damage.

Dual web firetails may be a problem, but you will have similar projection as them with a better tank. Overall the punisher changes are promising. Should be interesting.

Yep. I tinkered with em a bit before. Not bad back then, but this buff will help quite a bit. 10mn retribution is fun too. As you get the optimal/tracking to go along with it.

People using blasters/autos will just get under the pulse lasers in that situation.



If you're in falloff, which you will be most of the time, the rifter has a 50% falloff bonus. Even with guns two sizes smaller than the punisher the rifter outdamages the punisher starting at 5500m with short range ammo and 8500m with barrage.

Punisher's dps with short range ammo doesn't matter too much against frigates because if you're missing every shot your paper dps isn't going to matter.



A web equates to 120% better tracking, ignoring the extra effective tracking from relative speeds (which makes it WAY better than 120%).

To track a target well you can......

1. Slow the target down
2. Be faster or same speed as target
3. Increase the tracking of your guns

Relative speed to the target is extremely important. If you start off in a slow ship, with no web, and are then yourself webbed....having the worst tracking guns is a big issue.

Gatling pulse lasers, the smallest pulse laser, track worse than light neutron blasters and 200mm autocannons. That's how bad the tracking is. Scorch is the only real advantage pulse lasers have, and if a ship has no way to exploit it's superior range, and has the tracking achilles heel....why even use the ship or the weapons in the first place?

Balance is always an issue. Lasers having weaknesses give them flavor and help balance the game out, but the punisher is a case of the perfect storm of bullshit. For eons now it's been nothing more than a potential kill that just takes a greater expenditure of ammo to kill. It was my first ride and I have great memories of the early days, hunting big game in one.

Hell I even miss the garbage laser vengeance that made up for being trash with an overpowered nos and a 90% web.