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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4321 - 2015-10-21 18:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jill Xelitras wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/


A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running.

Maybe it was so successful because players saw that their progress depending from theirs actions in the game but not from subbing time.

... and likewise, EvE allowed equal SP progression to those with limited time to play. A week worth of SP, is a week worth for everyone.

Good point here. That man must be so busy because he earning some money so if he feel that he need more SP but have no time to play than he could pay for it. You also need to consider that free passive SP gaining is still here. Play Or Pay but only if you want to outcompete someone

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4322 - 2015-10-21 18:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dror wrote:

The example about MOBAs is relevant here. Established motivation science lists competence (mastery), relatedness (competitiveness and socialization), and autonomy (freedom of choice and depth) as principal. A sandbox game supports these really well. Apparently, the level of skillfulness that a game supports is less relevant than the option of being the best -- it's great competing over roles and "top scores". So, it's on SP to prove itself, and there's no obvious way it can. The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive.

What's neat about "a sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" is that if a niche is saturated, there are plenty more -- if a station is full, there are lots for filling and flipping. More stocked stations is less travel between refitting. There are demographics of interest, so unless it seems plausible that every character would just farm, then there's enough demand from all that are uninterested in industry and the inactive playstyle of mining. Just logging on and getting some action (or exploring) is a trend that's criticized as shallow, but it's great for business (and a lot of demographics enjoy it).


Good point - jump into the ship - have fun. Markets would adapt - supply and demand gets an overhaul. Although eve needs more modification to support this on the long run. Are the pvp mechanics enough to attract them for years to come? Atm they would also rely heavily on plex to fund their assets / or get integrated in a big corp / alliance. Additional costs if the possibility to "work around" the sp system is isk / aurum based. A complete sp system overhaul might then be the better way to go. The connection of the abillity to play in a specific manner to extra income, remains still as problematic in my eyes.

The idea of income problems is sorta unfounded. There are incursions, null with ratting and anomalies, and just playing the market. Furthermore, there's such depth for how production and invention are supplied. Yet, this is all no real mention of politics and further strategy. Sov has resources, and starter corps and their referrals being effective is an excellent challenge.

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Dror wrote:

So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design?

Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?


Have you heard of Counter-Strike, the worst FPS ever. I mean in terms of game-design.

1) You play in rounds of less than 5 minutes, always starting at the same position and roughly doing the same thing over and over again.

2) You can easily die without any chance of fighting back. A headshot and you're dead.

3) When you died, you have nothing left to do for up to 5 minutes. There's no respawning during rounds.

4) The winning team gets more money to get better weapons, helping them to win the next round too.

So, game-design says "mmm bad 'kay".

The market says "decades worth of fun":
Counter-Strike
Counter-Strike: Source
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

What I'm getting at is that what is punitive to some, is challenging to others. Is the SP system good ? No, it definitely has shortcomings. But you can't just change what has become a staple of the game if you have no clue how it affects gameplay.

The SP system isn't as much a progression system. It's closer to a research tree (tech-tree) as known from strategy games.

Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle.

So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4323 - 2015-10-21 18:32:22 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.

Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.

Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it.

Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4324 - 2015-10-21 18:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
So I see a lot of people opposing the idea, which is natural, people rarely welcome new ideas, which leads me to analyze: Are those concerns real?

Concern 1:

> "I'd buy 50 or so >5 mil SP chars for the bonus sp"

Would you really? Spend $2000 dollars in PLEX for the transfers alone, plus hundreds of billions of ISK on the bazaar, plus whatever it costs for the SP transfer token, just so you can rapidly emass 2.5m more SP? Something you can get in less than two months.

Lets be real, no you wouldn't. And even if you are rotting rich and think its a remotely viable investment, you are one in a million. Such behaviour wouldn't become a game breaking practice, and besides, throwing ISK at the problem has always been a way to win at EVE, nothing new there. So lets think things through and not entertain scenarios that won't happen.

Concern 2:

If you have a character with decent skill points, I'm sure you are having a great time right now, roaming lowsec seal clubbing people who can't even fit a T2 MWD, and I understand that the idea that this people might catch up with you "easily" may sound unconfortable, but again, lets be rational. Do you think those noobs roaming lowsec in T1 frigates have the ISK to effort it? I'll leave the answer to your common sense. As about people buying PLEX to get fast ISK, just keep reading.

Concern 3:

> "This basically introduces the ability to buy any skill with real life cash."

Its already possible. Have you been to the character bazaar? Toons fully trained for all and every activity you might want to try. Everything someone willing to spend ludicrous amounts of cash on a Internet spaceships game need is there. Gotta catch them all.

The only difference is that you won't have a name and a face coming together, because its the same thing in a different package.

Concern 4:

> "the potential for abuse is staggering"

The only abuse I can think of, is SP theft. But we already have that covered, as the EULA makes clear, account sharing is forbidden. SP is not the only thing you can be ripped off if you share your account anyway.

Concern 5:

> "CCP is trying to get more money"

Maybe they are (which by itself shouldn't be seen as a problem, what are you, 10?), but right now, character transfers already give them that. You have to pay two PLEX to perform a transfer, which is basically a tax for a service that has to be assisted manually by a technician. With the end of the character bazaar, this will actually stop. The proposal was not specific about how you get the SP transfer token, but since it won't require manual assistance there is no reason for it to cost a lot.


All that considered, I thought the idea was very interesting, and sure, if implemented, I will probably use it to speed up my training. Training queues are so frustrating, there are still so many ships I can't fly, so many weapon systems I'm far from mastering, and such a long training queue. Its extremely frustrating that all I can do about it is wait, and wait, for months to come.

I have the ISK to go to the bazaar and buy some toon that can fly all the stuff I want, but I've been Havenard for two decades now, and I won't give up on my name just so I can have a character that can sit on a carrier. I freakin rather wait.

So you see, the problem is not that I can't have a character with a large amount of SP, the problem is that I want my character with a large amount of SP. Thats the single only detail this system is targetting to solve.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4325 - 2015-10-21 18:57:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam


Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar?

Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed?

m


the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market.

imo the safety is you can tell them to **** off!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Dave Stark
#4326 - 2015-10-21 19:00:55 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam


Now that is an interesting thought, the character bazaar Is protected and monitored. Are you saying that this is so safe that it has no need of that? Anybody see any safety issues if it is NOT the same as the bazaar?

Or are we all trustworthy enough that such safeties are not needed?

m


the safety feature is that you can just go and buy SP from the market.

imo the safety is you can tell them to **** off!


yeh. there is that option if you no longer wish to rent.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4327 - 2015-10-21 19:02:51 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.

Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.

Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it.

Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it.


That's hilarious. Reminds me of the tweet from Fox Four I think saying how he realized taking about guns and bombs at the airport wasn't the best idea.

Where are you from if you don't mind me asking?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4328 - 2015-10-21 19:06:10 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Said this on slack and would like to post it here for all the people saying this is no different from character bazaar.

Character bazaar is bad for the game. There is a reason why it was removed. It was also brought back because people would still trade characters using illicit means which also resulted in many other security problems like account hacking etc.

Think of it as a bad drug. They decriminalized it because keeping it illegal did not stop people from using it and led to many other problems. What they are proposing is that now we efine the drug into a much more addictive form and push it to the mainstream, advertise it to the public and put up billboards outside our schools for kids to try it.

Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it.


That's hilarious. Reminds me of the tweet from Fox Four I think saying how he realized taking about guns and bombs at the airport wasn't the best idea.

Where are you from if you don't mind me asking?

From mother Russia

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#4329 - 2015-10-21 19:11:07 UTC
Dror wrote:

Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle.

So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game.


Look, nobody says that being unable to do what you want to do when you want isn't boring. Most players will agree and have agreed in the past, that skills which only lock you out of the game are bad and need to be changed.

It's in this spirit that learning skills and advanced learning skills which only increased your attributes were removed from the game and the attributes were permanently raised for all characters.

Every vet wants newbros to be able to have fun immediately. Many argue for giving the core skills a similar treatment as the learning skills. Others argue for increased training speeds up until a certain number of SP and then progressively raising that level over the years for future newcomers.

So we're not argueing that the skillsystem is perfect: it isn't.
We're not argueing that there are times where you wish you could do x and can't because you still ahve 14 days of training time ahead.

I'm saying that the skillsystem is an artificial barrier between professions that players chose to invest ISK and time into. I'm a logistic pilot who can fly the 4 logistic cruisers, because I chose to train all 4 of them. I can't fly any heavy interdictors. If you (almost) remove the time constraint and replace it with ISK which you can get for $, you fundamentally change the game.

Dror wrote:

Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities.


You missed the point I was trying to make. If you compare Counter-Strike to an FPS which is more balanced, you could say that CS is doing it wrong.

You would then probably add respawn during rounds, make rounds last 30 minutes, lower the impact of headshots, balance weapons .... and voilà, we have all the ingredients for a good game minus all the boring or unbalanced stuff. But that wouldn't be Counter-Strike, the game that drew millions to play it over more than 15 years now.

Game Theory can only guide you. It's not a recipe that you have to follow by the letter.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#4330 - 2015-10-21 19:43:58 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea.

We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum).

Proposal

Cerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below:

Standard Enhancer
increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)

Advanced Enhancer
increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)

The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.

0 – 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)
10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)
25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)
80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)

Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players.

Benefits

  1. Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)

  2. Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.

  3. It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.

  4. Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.

  5. Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)


I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.


This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented.

It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4331 - 2015-10-21 19:52:26 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Dror wrote:

Yet, there's a really simple explanation why it's deemed fun. "Buttons are so simple. How intriguing it is that games seem entertaining." ..That's irrelevant reduction, and it's a strawman. Science finds FPS games as improving attention allocation, spatial resolution in visual processing, and mental rotation abilities. Gaming with strategy and positioning actually improves skillfulness, where puzzle-type games provide nothing of the listed qualities. EVE features a very similar playstyle.

So, calling out SP as detrimental to having stuff to do is based. "There seems to be evidence that playing games enhances problem-solving skills and improves creativity," but that's playing a game.


Look, nobody says that being unable to do what you want to do when you want isn't boring. Most players will agree and have agreed in the past, that skills which only lock you out of the game are bad and need to be changed.

It's in this spirit that learning skills and advanced learning skills which only increased your attributes were removed from the game and the attributes were permanently raised for all characters.

Every vet wants newbros to be able to have fun immediately. Many argue for giving the core skills a similar treatment as the learning skills. Others argue for increased training speeds up until a certain number of SP and then progressively raising that level over the years for future newcomers.

So we're not argueing that the skillsystem is perfect: it isn't.
We're not argueing that there are times where you wish you could do x and can't because you still ahve 14 days of training time ahead.

I'm saying that the skillsystem is an artificial barrier between professions that players chose to invest ISK and time into. I'm a logistic pilot who can fly the 4 logistic cruisers, because I chose to train all 4 of them. I can't fly any heavy interdictors. If you (almost) remove the time constraint and replace it with ISK which you can get for $, you fundamentally change the game.

If the skill system has a major flaw, it requires update -- with this, removal. The idea's response seems based that paying more for a subscription game is really uninteresting because the game's requiring that for entertainment.

Jill Xelitras wrote:
You missed the point I was trying to make. If you compare Counter-Strike to an FPS which is more balanced, you could say that CS is doing it wrong.

You would then probably add respawn during rounds, make rounds last 30 minutes, lower the impact of headshots, balance weapons .... and voilà, we have all the ingredients for a good game minus all the boring or unbalanced stuff. But that wouldn't be Counter-Strike, the game that drew millions to play it over more than 15 years now.

Game Theory can only guide you. It's not a recipe that you have to follow by the letter.

Except, I would do none of those. ..Maybe removing the RNG factors, which prevent mastery.. or how none of the animations show what's actually happening with recoil, which is a deterrent for learning and immersion. These are still based in the motivation to play -- criticisms of the game are almost always of these same ideas.

It would be basically the same game, and there's the problem with a series actually being the same -- gameplay fatigue. Whether discussing that in the tiny window of opportunity that a fresh sub, of this game, has.. or on the low amount of content that those same subs provide so that veterans stay interested, playing a limited experience (or nothing at all if the experience seems like it's going nowhere) effects motivation, which effects creativity and feelings of mastery, which effects market and referral potential.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#4332 - 2015-10-21 19:57:10 UTC
Havenard wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea.

We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum).

Proposal

Cerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below:

Standard Enhancer
increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)

Advanced Enhancer
increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days.
Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)

The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.

0 – 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)
10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)
25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)
80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)

Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players.

Benefits

  1. Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)

  2. Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.

  3. It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.

  4. Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.

  5. Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)


I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.


This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented.

It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still.

I am glad you like the suggestion. I think with the level of enhancement a new player can get from the proposal above, and also due to the fact that with a focused skill plan you can get a very solid character for 10mil - 25mil SP, it would cut down a lot of reason for new players to even use the bazaar. That being said the bazaar will still have a place mainly for capital and highly specialised characters.

I have posted this idea in F&I forums, and so If you like the idea please up vote or put a comment in this thread.

Alternative to Skill Trading

If enough people show an interest then CCP may take some notice and rethink their current plan.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4333 - 2015-10-21 20:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/


A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running.

It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively.

To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money?

If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).


Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail.

Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct.

So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime Sad then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game £850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO.

The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4334 - 2015-10-21 20:57:21 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/


A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running.

It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively.

To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money?

If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).


Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail.

Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct.

So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime Sad then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game £850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO.

The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment.

I'm contrasting the design of popular games through established motivation theories. There's no logic in saying something about "WoW has this mechanic -- put it in every game". There is, though, plenty of reason to base literally every design on what provides the most value. With video games, that requires playing (or even paying), which requires motivation. The point made with other MMOs, especially original WoW, is how much diversity there is (even if the standards are particularly low) -- achievements, mounts, leveling, WPvP, instanced gameplay including arenas and gamemodes, the fantasy fulfillment of "raiding" and exploration, and professions. All of those define an average character experience. It's a game. Limiting gameplay because there hasn't been enough money paid is unrealistic and inauthentic. The market is keen on that. If $500 was spent for every 25M SP of experiencing this MMO, that's a nice potential investment for any other hobby.

Digressing, there seems no evidence that WoW's status would be doing much better if it was the same game as initially. Except, EVE has yet to ruin its "professions" and ships but is still finding a similar trend.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4335 - 2015-10-21 21:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

So, you're evidence for the success of SP is that the game has had subscriptions? So has WoW -- is that great game design/


A game model like WoW is hardly a fail Dror, 12 mill active subs in its heyday of wrath grossing 300mill per annum even now a paltry 5.6 mill active subs. Im sure EvE would like even 33% percent of those active accounts running.

It's not the same argument.. is the problem with this. Nothing's saying that WoW is a failure -- but it has a lot for criticism, and it is losing its status quo very effectively.

To reiterate the point, then, what about MOBAs? The best design philosophy is still very based in motivation, so for a contrast: are MOBAs, replaying the same map and farming the same creeps as the gameplay experience, the crux of gaming? Yet, they have some of the best PCUs on the market. So, what of this discussion remains? ..Having something to do? ..Being competitive without paying lots of money?

If there's the idea that SP is helpful, that's mostly about it being rewarding? How ludicrous -- any benefit from gaining something through SP is negated by its original limitations. No accurate description of that feeling ascribes SP to why it's great getting ships and relevance in an MMO. Nothing features SP for an advertisement -- subs come to play the game. Even more, it's validity as a game mechanic is obviously being challenged with the idea of a redesign. The best option is cutting losses for a system that provides much less than it limits, if depth of gameplay and freedom are of any benefit (protip: with motivation and decision theory, they are key).


Well for your main point on WoW you bought up saying is that a great game ? - Yes it was until they messed about with its core mechanics e.g. the skill tree - They started to add more fluff into it, The pets and Mounts which evolved into an in game shop - The final nail it its coffin The instant gratification mode, the level 90 boost. All the expansions that followed wrath had either very little or zero content for the pvp base, Major fail.

Your the only person who i have seen write that they look at the skill training as a reward, its not a reward its the characters progression as your experience builds within the framework of the game - The rewards are your endeavours within its construct.

So you now change the goalposts and refer to another kind of game MOBA's so first off i get my summoner to 30, Then every game i have to get my champion upto 18 if i can actually get that far. also its a scramble for who calls out popular champions and lanes, such as top lane darius Mids orianna bot bleh .... jungler not in my lifetime Sad then runes and masteries before i start the game and you dont even get the benefit of this until 30. Im in game 2 things happen now first all goes well and i get an average 30 minute game !! or we smash or get hammered and all that for 10 to 15 mins or waiting for the team to surrender at 20 minutes. All i have is free to play champs unless YOU guessed it stick my hand in my pocket and pay there are roughly 120 champs ,skins, Icons The maps are well square with 3 lanes and if you only like certain lanes you may as well become a bot - oh did i mention apart from the attaining level 30 summoner all the above is rinse and repeat every time for at best 30 to 40 minutes game time - My son skill level Master / diamond played 2 years given up Boredom Total spend on free game £850.00. gone onto Blade and soul Possibilty of returning - lol ZERO.

The game has zero comparisions in anyway to eve except its PVP and best PCU's DOTA 21-25 LoL 16 -21 More like 12 if you play at the weekends. If you base your idea of reward by measuring against these kind of models then you must have a very short attention span and no concept of longevity within a vast evolving enviroment.

I'm contrasting the design of popular games through established motivation theories. There's no logic in saying something about "WoW has this mechanic -- put it in every game". There is, though, plenty of reason to base literally every design on what provides the most value. With video games, that requires playing (or even paying), which requires motivation. The point made with other MMOs, especially original WoW, is how much diversity there is (even if the standards are particularly low) -- achievements, mounts, leveling, WPvP, instanced gameplay including arenas and gamemodes, the fantasy fulfillment of "raiding" and exploration, and professions. All of those define an average character experience. It's a game. Limiting gameplay because there hasn't been enough money paid is unrealistic and inauthentic. The market is keen on that. If $500 was spent for every 25M SP of experiencing this MMO, that's a nice potential investment for any other hobby.

Digressing, there seems no evidence that WoW's status would be doing much better if it was the same game as initially. Except, EVE has yet to ruin its "professions" and ships but is still finding a similar trend.


Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4336 - 2015-10-21 21:39:31 UTC
Something about price on extactors. It will be always correlate with price on PLEX because payers want to maximize isk/$. So devs please make it affordable like 1/12 of PLEX in $ or less. In isk it will be cost 100m hence price on SP injector will be around 400m isks.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4337 - 2015-10-21 21:39:57 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

But what about 200+ pages of screaming, where does that lead?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4338 - 2015-10-21 21:41:01 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

Paying money -- again, it's supported by motivation.

That is also a strawman, technically. I state that paying mid-hundreds through thousands of dollars on a game is obviously well-spent on other investments, and the response is about all payments being implausible? There's no reason to say such a thing, either.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4339 - 2015-10-21 21:43:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

But what about 200+ pages of screaming, where does that lead?


Only time will tell, maybe a kick in the pants for full information instead of drips. It could of all been planned that way to see what reception it was going to get Lol who know's

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#4340 - 2015-10-21 21:44:58 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.


They've been saying that **** since 2010 and while it may be true for some run of the mill mmos I don't think it's true for a unique game like eve.

If CCP goes back to their core values and sticks to them I personally would have no problem paying 20$ a month, and/or throwing money at them in other ways, and I'm pretty poor.

I was plexing my accounts for a couple of years when my RL didn't allow me to sub. I was always planning to get back that lost ISK when I could. I was also dying for skins. Now that I can afford it though I don't feel confident about the direction the game is going in and therefore I'm not going to throw hundreds of dollars at it. In addition I think skins are priced ridiculously high and refuse to submit to this office gauging out of principle.

If they address these issues I will gladly go out of my way to support the company.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!