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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3521 - 2015-10-19 09:34:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that.

Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs.
From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP.
I can compete with other players within game activities.
I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved.
It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air.
It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind.
I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"









Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans?


I any gallente hull up to and including cruisers yes I can. I have exactly the same maxed skills as they do because I chose to train them up. I cannot compete in other hulls but that's because I chose to train manufacturing and invention too. This means I still have other choices to make , and that's the key thing here. I choose what to do and when. With this idea I would have the choice to pay more money instead which for a new player will come across as *have* to pay more to be competitive. Not a good way to encourage new players.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3522 - 2015-10-19 09:34:33 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.


An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash.

I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them.

These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited.

Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities.

People can conclude exactly the same thing now because of the Character Bazaar. You could also argue that a lot of people leave because they think it will take too long to catch up. In which case this change would be a net positive. Remember that CCP has feedback from players who leave the game to ponder.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dave Stark
#3523 - 2015-10-19 09:34:46 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?



We already have an unlimited supply of ISK entering the game, through most PvE activities. Why is that a bad thing? Do you think EVE would turn for the better if there were no ISK faucets?


no, we don't. it's limited by time and reduced by sinks.

currently there are no SP sinks, and if you sell SP directly from thin air there will be no sinks. the current diminishing returns system only acts as a sink because the SP has to come from another player. it actively removes SP that's already in the game.

excuse my early morning posting. the lack of sinks is more the issue than the unlimited supply. however even an unlimited supply is bad enough.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3524 - 2015-10-19 09:36:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?


Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .


what?

Okay made easy version for dave.

1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them.

There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99

there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3525 - 2015-10-19 09:37:01 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.



At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.

This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.


This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.

But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.


So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game.

If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers.

TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE.

Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE.
Dave Stark
#3526 - 2015-10-19 09:37:11 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
head outside eve-o and you'll see the myriad of support for this idea - and not from no-name nobodies like me. from people who have been playing for years and have the profile to support that.

Took a peek at reddit. Almost all postivies to idea. Almost all of them are like: "Finally, I pay I gain". If this in not microtransaction then what is? The baazar exist just because without it there will be black market like in others MMOs.
From what I saw there (reddit) I 100% it will be implemented. It will be moutain of cash for CCP.
I can compete with other players within game activities.
I can't compete with other players when RL money are involved.
It doesn't matter if SP are stripped from alts or just emerge from thin air.
It was the same thing like my gfs mmo. They have an items to speed up leveling there. For cash. This was discouraging for her, it was a loop, if she won't pay she'll stay behind.
I have the same feeling about this new feature. What is the message new players will see? "Pay"









Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans?


I any gallente hull up to and including cruisers yes I can. I have exactly the same maxed skills as they do because I chose to train them up. I cannot compete in other hulls but that's because I chose to train manufacturing and invention too. This means I still have other choices to make , and that's the key thing here. I choose what to do and when. With this idea I would have the choice to pay more money instead which for a new player will come across as *have* to pay more to be competitive. Not a good way to encourage new players.


so if you can feel you can compete now, in a system where people are able to purchase characters with significantly more SP than you. why can't you compete in a new system where people are able to purchase SP directly and have characters with significantly more SP than you?

does it matter if that 60m SP pilot that just wiped the floor with you was purchased via the bazaar or pumped with TSPs?

also, none of these options are exclusive to people with a credit card. they are available to everyone via isk. the buyer is under 0 obligation to pay any irl currency as all non-optional currency related payments are made by the seller.
Dave Stark
#3527 - 2015-10-19 09:37:57 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?


Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .


what?

Okay made easy version for dave.

1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them.

There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99

there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling.


now you're suggesting we delete people's characters? are you serious?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3528 - 2015-10-19 09:39:04 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.

How about:
"looks like a horrible overprices paywall from a free2play title but the game actually costs 15$ a month."

A new player will see this on the market. It's not hidden somewhere in the forums. He will see the normal slow passive accumulation of SP as a playwall so he spends more money on the game to purchase some internet spaceship skills for real money.

I see no problem here. Slow accumulation of skill points IS a play wall in the sense of some content being locked, regardless of how relevant that is to enjoyment or relevance. If people wish to overcome that play wall with cash/ISK then good for them. It can be done with the bazaar right now.

I knew about the character bazaar within about a week of starting. It isn't exactly hidden.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3529 - 2015-10-19 09:41:06 UTC
[/quote]

Okay, seeing as the client is free and in the part if you unsub says we will save this toon yada yada but we can bin it if we want too part .Seek CCP terminus help again to see how many actual characters have not subbed for say 12 months, frees up the DB's free up probably millions upon millions of skillpoints to be biomassed theyre not now entering the game from the ether, just recycling .[/quote]

what? [/quote]
Okay made easy version for dave.

1000's of unsubbed toons over 12 months old - delete them.

There amassed skillpoints entered into CCP 500,000 packet selling scheme for 6.99

there're not being whipped up now out of the ether we're recycling.[/quote]

now you're suggesting we delete people's characters? are you serious?[/quote]

CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3530 - 2015-10-19 09:41:47 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.



At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.

This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.


This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.

But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.


So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game.

If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers.

TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE.

Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE.

Time still plays a role. The SP is still earned, not created de novo. If you are talking about instant gratification vs time, the same argument can again be made for the bazaar.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dave Stark
#3531 - 2015-10-19 09:43:13 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.


are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese?

please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god...
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3532 - 2015-10-19 09:43:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
...currently there are no SP sinks...

My pedantic side insists that I point out T3 cruiser destruction :)

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3533 - 2015-10-19 09:44:39 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


An extra big con is that this essentially tells new players they need to spend extra RL cash (as they won't have ISK) to be a viable pilot. This isn't true and is pretty much milking new players for extra cash.

I would prefer the cerebral accelerator approach along with skill queue templates that can be imported for the basic skills as a starter queue for new players. Cerebral accelerators can be built in game and only work up to a certain age of character as now or up to a hard cap of sp with diminishing returns. Cerebral accelerators could be use to replace implants in drops when (not if) CCP decide to remove them.

These would either be as BPC's or directly as accelerators for sale (I prefer BPC's to boost manufacture too). The drop cerebral accelerators would not have a hard SP cap on them since they are replacing implants but would still be time limited.

Skill queue templates would be very useful as a new player has no idea what to train up but certainly knows what ships they'd like to fly. being able to simply import the skeleton of basic pre-req skills would allow them to set this in a few clicks, and then amend the queue to suit their specific needs. Corps would be able to develop and set their own skill queues for new pilots too in support of their activities.

People can conclude exactly the same thing now because of the Character Bazaar. You could also argue that a lot of people leave because they think it will take too long to catch up. In which case this change would be a net positive. Remember that CCP has feedback from players who leave the game to ponder.


Character bazaar is different in that they train at exactly the same speed but as you say CCP have all sorts of feedback to consider. However they don't seem to be considering the feedback from the existing player base over the last few years of my time in the game where most people I've seen have been against this kind of thing.

In my view CCP will do whatever they feel is best. I'm not in support of the current idea as it stands and tried to propose a different approach that has other benefits too without changing one of the core tenets of EvE.

As ever I'll just adapt to any incoming changes (like the gimping of my beloved gila :( ) but I don't think draining more cash from new players is necessarily the best way to go. Which would feel best to a new player: Paying a PLEX for a skill pack for instant gain or finding the cerebral implant for increased skill training in a combat site/mission reward? What will help a new player more: Having to work out what skills to throw unallocated SP at and then feeling *very* annoyed when they realize they put the SP they paid for in the wrong place, or being given a skillqueue import pack that will then guide their increased SP gain into the correct locations?

I'm not one of those who just says 'Nononononononoragequitnonononono...', but rather try to propose alternatives if I disagree with a proposed approach.
Dave Stark
#3534 - 2015-10-19 09:48:09 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
...currently there are no SP sinks...

My pedantic side insists that I point out T3 cruiser destruction :)


point taken but every non-t3 subsystem skill has no sink.there are only going to be more and more people with any given non-t3 subsystem skill in the game.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3535 - 2015-10-19 09:52:18 UTC
Regarding SP farms, I actually don't mind this at all. SP will effectively become fungible and this will provide increased value for poorly skilled characters on the bazaar. Not good if you are a character trader but not bad for a seller.

But I think there will be a long period of rationalisation where the market soaks up unwanted SP. The price may even initially dip below the eventual long term price as people capitalise on their characters' SP fat. Good trading opportunities. I love that there is a built-in sink in the form of reduced application for high SP characters.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3536 - 2015-10-19 09:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?

Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.

Also it would be appreciated if you could apply an equivalent level of zeal to the application of the philosophy that actions should have consequences, any design decisions that are made should be looked at through the prism of all these aspects instead of this seemingly blinkered approach which doesn't account for vision of eve in its entirety. I have not even seen this core principle of eve mentioned once in the devblog or any of the dev responses.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3537 - 2015-10-19 09:54:28 UTC
Also, I really think CCP should increase the application reduction from 50m to 75m.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I have 60m SP. Shame on you for thinking that.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3538 - 2015-10-19 09:56:47 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Can someone do me a tl;dr of the negative side? There must be something I'm missing.

Pros
- Adds a flexible alternative to the existing legitimate SP purchase arrangement of the Character Bazaar.
- Provides young players (especially) another way to speed up their progression.
- More income for CCP.
- I can spend my vast fortune on SP :)

Cons
- New players might feel pressured into taking the accelerated approach. (But same argument applies to Character Bazaar).
- Plex prices will increase. (Oh well. Plex is there as an anti-RMT tool, not so people can play for free.)
- Consequences. (But you can buy/sell on the Character Bazaar.)
- I won't be able to tell how ‘powerful’ a character is by their age.

As far as I can tell only the last one is a real negative. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the numerous positives. And to be clear this obviously isn't pay to win because the SP will be freely traded on the market for isk.



At this current stage, the update means people will simply set up SP character farms and sell the SP on the market for gains. This is open to abuse and basicly is pay 2 SP win.

This devalues SP and Time, therefore devalues the vet's and players that have supported the game since day 1. It goes against most values and standards of the player base.


This is not valid in the absence of pricing data. You have no idea how expensive it will be and whether setting up SP farms will be a thing.

But even if they are, this is exactly what happens on the Character Bazaar right now.


So, lets say for example: SP farms is a prediction, under the current plan to be implemented. We, both have no Idea on how much ISK could be potentially earnt through the new proposed skill extraction. Yet, through probability and the need/want for SP we can agree that SP will be a much desired "ITEM" to be an effective player in game.

If something is to be desired, people will want. More people want, more people will need, the more people will want to supply. This supply will come from Alt Characters / farms to supply buyers.

TIME & SP are linked. Take Time away and the value of SP is none existent. People before you that have developed there characters have lost all value to their character and this goes against the values and standards of what makes EVE, EVE.

Character Bazaar: Yes People set up accounts to be Sold on the Bazaar, accounts that fly specific ships / do specific things in eve. All of which takes TIME and TIME should have a place in EVE.

Time still plays a role. The SP is still earned, not created de novo. If you are talking about instant gratification vs time, the same argument can again be made for the bazaar.


Someone has spent the Time to develop that specific character to sell on the Bazaar, it would have taken him 1-2 Years to develop something of potential and then someone to use that character efficiently.

Time has a value. Integrating the new proposed skill extraction on mutiple accounts / alts to sell on the market for a 6 month old character to boost him self up to 200M SP because he can, goes against Values and Standards of vet players and effectively the majority of EVE player base.

Character Bazaar is a valid option to boost your SP since the characters have been developed through time and had some history to them. This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3539 - 2015-10-19 09:58:13 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?

Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.

What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dave Stark
#3540 - 2015-10-19 10:01:40 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.