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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3421 - 2015-10-19 04:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Terminus
Daniela Doran wrote:

Very good point.

CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??

CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.

While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now.

Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them.


Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."

The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3422 - 2015-10-19 04:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Urziel99
This whole affair doesn't really bother me, from the stand point of giving myself SP, I'm at the point on this pilot and my combat pilot where it would be woefully inefficient. (70 and 78 million sp respectively.) What I could do, is use the items to pull unwanted skills and give them to my cyno or trading alts to make them Industry Gods.

I would suggest the creation of a third item that when used simply unallocates the sp to the pilot in who uses it. It should cost more in aurum, the unused item should be tradeable on the market (no pay to win [respec]) but it should be more sp efficient in regards to diminishing returns. (hard cap of 20% penalty as opposed to 90% at high sp) so the item would grant 400,000 unallocated SP at the expense of 500,000 SP on the pilot.
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3423 - 2015-10-19 04:53:27 UTC
Canadian Fire wrote:
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD.
At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.


A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes.

On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3424 - 2015-10-19 05:12:05 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Canadian Fire wrote:
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD.
At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.


A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes.

On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.

This reply just makes it look like a done deal.

Another common request is 'hell no'. But it's to early to tell, am I right?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3425 - 2015-10-19 05:22:09 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
...

Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.

As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.

What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?

Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m


Almost certainly not the new players unless the lay out a reasonable sum of RL cash. It makes me feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing.


Yep, it feels like a scam doesn't it.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3426 - 2015-10-19 05:23:51 UTC
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3427 - 2015-10-19 05:30:39 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3428 - 2015-10-19 05:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
CCP Terminus wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal?

Nice.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3429 - 2015-10-19 05:48:46 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Canadian Fire wrote:
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD.
At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.


A hard cap seems to be a common request, and I think there may be some merit to that. We'll certainly look in to it. I'm not sure how to determine where that cap is though, if it's purely for prestige purposes.

On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.

Screw that cap idea. Just open it up. The penalty for higher SP characters is already high enough with the reduced application rate.

My major complaint it that the idea has not yet been implemented.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3430 - 2015-10-19 05:56:28 UTC
Mag's wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal?

Nice.


Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.
Dave Stark
#3431 - 2015-10-19 05:57:33 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.


so, what's going on with prerequisite skills. you can't remove skills so even if you remove all the SP from them you're still going to be unable to remove SP from their prerequisites or you can "grandfather" yourself in to new ships. etc.

will you be adding a way to remove skills, or are we stuck with deadweight skills like mining IV forever?
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3432 - 2015-10-19 06:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Terminus
Mag's wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal?

Nice.

Daniela Doran wrote:
Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.


If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
Circumstantial Evidence
#3433 - 2015-10-19 06:04:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
so, what's going on with prerequisite skills. you can't remove skills so even if you remove all the SP from them you're still going to be unable to remove SP from their prerequisites or you can "grandfather" yourself in to new ships. etc.

will you be adding a way to remove skills, or are we stuck with deadweight skills like mining IV forever?
I think post #135 copied below, says skills + the points associated with them, will be removed:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.

Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3434 - 2015-10-19 06:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
CCP Terminus wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Very good point.

CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??

CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.

While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now.

Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them.


Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."

The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.


Okay, then why try to fix something that isn't broken? Why not just leave the Char Bazaar the way it is? In other words why is CCP trying to make more money this way? And why would they do it in a way that contradicts one of Eve's main core principal designs that the game was based upon for over a decade?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3435 - 2015-10-19 06:06:15 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Very good point.

CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??

CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible.


Yeah companies that sell electricity are never around long are they. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3436 - 2015-10-19 06:07:18 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

Very good point.

CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??

CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.


Translation: Money grab to fund other projects in the hopes of saving the company.

Gotcha.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3437 - 2015-10-19 06:10:01 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Mag's wrote:
This reply just makes it look like a done deal.
How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?

Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.

What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet. Twisted

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.


You could...oh I don't...post more data. And spare me the blah blah blah of customer confidentiality, you can aggregate and protect customer confidential information that way, it is done all the time in other industries.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3438 - 2015-10-19 06:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
CCP Terminus wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal?

Nice.

Daniela Doran wrote:
Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.


If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.


In that case I'd like your opinion on this proposal if CCP is insistent on SP trading.

1st--Veterans can extract 5 skills per year using the Transneural Package. The skills that are extracted, extracts the entire skill regardless of the level. The extracted skills extracts up to 66% of the actual SP extracted which the player can relocate anywhere else on him/herself only (can't be sold to someone else cause it breaks eve realistic principles).

2nd--CCP introduce a new skill book called Transneural with Int/Mem attributes and a 4x training time multiplier. This would be a skill that a player needs to train to level 5 if they want to sell their own SP to other pilots. Once this skill is trained to level 5 it starts producing unallocated SP that can be uses however the player wishes with a -34% SP accumulation drawback.

3rd--Set cap injection limit to 20m SP. 20M SP is plenty of SP for new pilots to gain access to core skills that they can use to branch off into any other occupation of their choosing.

With these features incorporated it limits the abuse of SP farming and most importantly it doesn't break Eve game principles.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3439 - 2015-10-19 06:23:25 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory.

but you are.
Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time)
Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly)
Who have advantage here?
From what you wrote Terminus it's already decided, why bother with feedback? It's rather how we introduce it, not if.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Maetel Lithium
Undead Dragons
#3440 - 2015-10-19 06:36:45 UTC
I still don't like the idea of buying skills. I would prefer the ability to redistribute the points I have then add new skills on top of existing skills. It would be my preference, rather then just writing SP into the characters' brain. As with attribute mapping, it makes more sense in continuity.

I am a little worried about SP farming. I could see someone having a bunch of alts With the right skills and implants to maximize training in one area, and then transfer those skills to other accounts or to the market. And there's NO RISKS because they never have to undock!

Eve is, as far as I understand, About risk/reward ratios. The more you hqve to gain, the more you must invest, and stand to lose. This is different from multi-boxing because you still havento PLAY those accounts. They have to enter space at some point.

I could set up 10 jita alts, never undock and just sell skill points. Training is passive so as long as I am willing to front the money, or the ISK to buy the tools to make skill packs, I don't need to risk a thing.

It's not even market trading or anything where you have to sink ISK into something and there's a chance it won't sell, ornyou will get undercut by another person. Generic skill packets will always bin demand and will always be profitable, like PLEX, because there will be tied to IRL money.