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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#3341 - 2015-10-18 21:36:16 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday.


That statement really sums up this whole **** up


I think its a bit of an outlier to be honest. Assuming the everyday part means he'd get 1 million SP everyday and at the end of the month would have a character with something in the neighborhood of 30 million SP...he'd pay $750.

No way I'd pay that.

Of course, if he means for $25 he'd buy a million SP it means he'd go buy a PLEX and with that money buy about 2 million SP. Of course once he crossed the 50 million SP barrier he'd stop...as I indicated in my earlier post.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave Stark
#3342 - 2015-10-18 21:36:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking.


actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price.

there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account.

this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs.

there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price.
Maekchu
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3343 - 2015-10-18 21:37:23 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.

That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea.


Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex Roll

Doesn't really matter if they end up buying a PLEX to do it.

What matters, is that it gives new players an incentive to actually undock and do something active in EvE in order to earn ISK. New players start with enough skills to fly frigates, Meta fitted frigates are not expensive.

Even with a new character, you can quickly gain enough ISK to replace your frigates. So you save up ISK for bigger ships, but you don't have enough skills to fly those anyway. Since you cannot fly those yet, then what is the point of saving up for them, until you actually can fly them?

You could save up for a PLEX if you are interested in gaining a free month of sub, but for those who will just sub. What is there for them to do, other than saving up ISK and playing skill queue online?

In the end, it doesn't really matter if they will actually make enough ISK to buy this SP injection. What is important is that it makes people undock and actively try to earn ISK. Gives them a purpose to their gameplay. A purpose, that can be very hard to find for a complete newbie, that does not understand the game enough make a more EvE related goal for their character. A boost to your character, is a universal enough language, that it would easily be understood as something to be worked towards for newer players.
Dave Stark
#3344 - 2015-10-18 21:38:32 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.


which directly contradicts the devblog which states..

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more,"
No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control.

Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement.


i wasn't referring to that part.

i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill...
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#3345 - 2015-10-18 21:44:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...

But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way.


I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters.

Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP.

As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3346 - 2015-10-18 21:45:03 UTC
Vodar Valimian wrote:
This is such an epic bad idea that i cringe just thinking about it.

Here are my 2 cents.

- Cent 1 - Having a perfectly skilled character in any specific field used to be a testament to the patience and dedication of the player who built the character. These characters are rare because the investment in time and sacrifice is significant.

But no longer. Want a perfect (insert major ship type here)? 30 min and currency (poof). The fact that a character with the combination of these skills were so rare was a testament to the player who invested years in their creation. Remove the scarcity, remove the value. This idea so cheapens the game and the existing characters that it is hard to take it seriously.

- Cent 2 - How does this make any sense at all. The whole point of clones and transfer of memories is that you transfer your memories. How can you transfer someone else's experiences.

Bottom line, this is a sickening and obvious cash grab and I predict it will make eve just another (play to win) (fail) game.

Thanks,

Vodar

Toons higher than 50m SP still be unique because of small effectiveness of SP injector.
You can transfer your experiences by teaching (how it happening IRL) but it's side question.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#3347 - 2015-10-18 21:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking.


actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price.

there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account.

this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs.

there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price.


No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs.

It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level.

Oh, and the cost of an account IS a barrier to entry. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3348 - 2015-10-18 21:47:32 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
I'd pay $25 for 1mil SP all day everyday.


That statement really sums up this whole **** up


Great for people 0-5million SP... then you get deminishing returns after that...

So.. How afraid of characters with 5-10million skillpoints are you? Give me a mark out of 10... 9/10? -.-
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3349 - 2015-10-18 21:47:38 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.


which directly contradicts the devblog which states..

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more,"
No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control.

Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement.


i wasn't referring to that part.

i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill...
The skills I listed where SP could be extracted are mining related, so I don't think we really have a conflict. Nor do I see it stated explicitly that all skills, mining or otherwise, are eligible in the blog, but I do see it stated in the dev posts that prereqs are not going to be eligible.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3350 - 2015-10-18 21:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Maekchu wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.

That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea.


Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex Roll

Doesn't really matter if they end up buying a PLEX to do it.

What matters, is that it gives new players an incentive to actually undock and do something active in EvE in order to earn ISK. New players start with enough skills to fly frigates, Meta fitted frigates are not expensive.

Even with a new character, you can quickly gain enough ISK to replace your frigates. So you save up ISK for bigger ships, but you don't have enough skills to fly those anyway. Since you cannot fly those yet, then what is the point of saving up for them, until you actually can fly them?

You could save up for a PLEX if you are interested in gaining a free month of sub, but for those who will just sub. What is there for them to do, other than saving up ISK and playing skill queue online?

In the end, it doesn't really matter if they will actually make enough ISK to buy this SP injection. What is important is that it makes people undock and actively try to earn ISK. Gives them a purpose to their gameplay. A purpose, that can be very hard to find for a complete newbie, that does not understand the game enough make a more EvE related goal for their character. A boost to your character, is a universal enough language, that it would easily be understood as something to be worked towards for newer players.


Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Dave Stark
#3351 - 2015-10-18 21:49:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking.


actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price.

there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account.

this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs.

there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price.


No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs.

It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level.


when price rises above cost price, there's nothing to stop new suppliers entering the market. the barrier to entry is very, very low. due to this there's almost no limit to how much downwards pressure that can be put on TSP prices due to an increase in supply.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#3352 - 2015-10-18 21:51:46 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And this is most likely the minimum price generally speaking.


actually, it's just going to be the price of SP. ~1/4 plex price + extractor price.

there's no reason to sell below cost price, and the barrier to entry for selling SP is basically a subscribed account meaning anyone and everyone can start an SP farm. unless you're already dual training you can have up to 3 SP farms per account.

this literally non-existent barrier to entry will put a near uncontestable downwards pressure on the price of TSPs.

there's very little for the price to go except to track at 1/4 plex price + TSE price.


No. Price is set by supply and demand. Supply is based on costs. So, price will be greater than or equal to costs.

It will track the PLEX price given the costs component, but demand could cause to rise above that level.


when price rises above cost price, there's nothing to stop new suppliers entering the market. the barrier to entry is very, very low. due to this there's almost no limit to how much downwards pressure that can be put on TSP prices due to an increase in supply.


Yes, that could happen. The other is that if the demand shifts outward permanent for some reason driving up the price, over time that will likely drive up the PLEX price, bringing the market back into alignment.

The price tend towards equality with the PLEX market with periodic deviations.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3353 - 2015-10-18 21:52:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...

But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way.


I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters.

Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP.

As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar.
Personally I'd be interested in finding out who is bankrolling those purchases. Is it older players financing the purchases for new players? And if new players how does this become anything but good for them to be able to piecemeal the purchase rather than look at a price of several plex up front or nothing?
Dave Stark
#3354 - 2015-10-18 21:52:17 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Unless we want to get into actual skill removal I'd say that yes, it makes perfect sense to lock in "dead weight" skills. That seems to be exactly what was suggested in the Dev response quoted.


which directly contradicts the devblog which states..

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more,"
No, there's no contradiction as "more control" != "complete control". Just as there are skills I'm obligated to have to use certain other skills there might be skills I'm obligated to keep due to certain other skills, but that certainly doesn't mean I can't rid myself of some of the excess "waste" in ways I can't now, hence being more control.

Being able to dump SP from ore specs, Exhumers/Mining Barge, Expedition Frigate/Mining Frigate, and some others I'm probably forgetting would more than justify the statement.


i wasn't referring to that part.

i was referring to the bit that says "rather have isk than those mining skills you don't use any more" that simply won't be the case if you mined. the prerequisite for mining ships are the mining skills. if i can't extract any of the mining skills i don't use any more because i injected the mining barges skill...
The skills I listed where SP could be extracted are mining related, so I don't think we really have a conflict. Nor do I see it stated explicitly that all skills, mining or otherwise, are eligible in the blog, but I do see it stated in the dev posts that prereqs are not going to be eligible.


a large portioin of skills people will want to get rid of are prerequisites. especially if they invested in something heavily before investing in something else - like pretty much all older characters did.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3355 - 2015-10-18 21:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Dave Stark wrote:
a large portioin of skills people will want to get rid of are prerequisites. especially if they invested in something heavily before investing in something else - like pretty much all older characters did.
I certainly get this and how it would curtail the initially "unlimited" use and appeal this would have had. That said, as stated between the blog and dev posts, that's the best interpretation I can manage. A dev posts on the possibility of removing skills to free up more SP would be great, though personally I'm not sure this would make it a bit too flexible for character cannibalization.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#3356 - 2015-10-18 21:57:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
$25/million(or 1/10th of that) SP? I'll take the long way thanks...

But if others think it worthwhile, I won't stand in the way.


I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers) is that there is a subset of the new players who want to participate in the game don't want to wait so they buy PLEX and buy characters.

Presumably, with this SP market they'd do something similar, but with the added bonuses of selecting name, gender, and customizing the character as well in terms of distribution of SP.

As I indicated it would be great to an idea of how large is this segment of the new player population. Is it 25% of 5%? I don't see why such information should be confidential any more than being told what we already have about the character bazaar.
Personally I'd be interested in finding out who is bankrolling those purchases. Is it older players financing the purchases for new players? And if new players how does this become anything but good for them to be able to piecemeal the purchase rather than look at a price of several plex up front or nothing?


Interesting question. I would suspect it is mainly people bankrolling their own purchases, but v0v.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3357 - 2015-10-18 21:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Levi Belvar wrote:

Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate.


No kidding.

What happened to the good ol' days of starting a character and then going to play another game for a few months while your learning skills trained?

These new kids are so spoiled. They get to actually start playing the game the same day they make a character.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3358 - 2015-10-18 21:59:38 UTC
I'm a fan of Elise Randolph's for various reasons. However, I feel that he's presented some arguments in favor of SP Trading which seem reasonable, on the surface, but don't quite take into account how the mechanic would affect EVE as a whole.

I'd like to summarize what I'm about to write (this is the tl;dr).

1. Character Bazaar and SP Trading are not comparable mechanics. The only similarity they have is the SP transfer, but we can't divorce the pros and cons of each when we compare them.
2. SP Trading devalues characters and removes consequences (not just the consequences of skill training choices).
3. SP Trading is pay to win. I'll clarify exactly what I mean by that.
4. SP Trading will be abused
5. There are better things CCP can spend time on to make EVE a better, more attractive game to new players.



Part 1: The Character Bazaar and SP Trading is not the same. It's false equivalency to say they're the same.

1.Motivation: The primary reason for Bazaar to exist is, as CCP says, to "discourage people from participating in illegal account sales on eBay and other sites".

SP trading does not inherently prevent RMT like the Bazaar does. Why? Because people can trade characters by exchanging login info even if CCP did not have a mechanism to transfer characters. However, there is no way that people can trade SPs today. This means SP trading doesn't exist in any illicit way that character transfers can exist. Thus, SP trading as a mechanism is not motivated by the need to prevent RMT. From the perspective of an "EVE Fan", it seems like CCP's motivation is a money grab.

2.Pros and cons: Let's talk about the second distinction between Bazaar and SP trading.

Bazaar:
(A) Con: reputation, corp history, sec status. This is not immediately apparent, even with EVEWho, zKill, etc.
(B) Con: character name
(C) Con: Race is locked
(D) Con: Gender is locked
(E) Con: SP is untransferrable. From the point that you buy the character, they have to train realtime
(F) Con: SP is locked to all the skills the original owner chose to train.
(G) Con: 2 PLEX transfer fee baked into sale price
(H) Con: If the sale is posted on Bazaar, then there is a public record of the "bundle of SP" being transferred to you
(J) Con: Cost of skillbooks (if expensive) baked into sale price
(K) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of seller. They have to transfer out excess inventory, move the character to a neutral location, add eveboard link, making a public post and bumping it, advertising the character amongst myriad alternate options, etc.

(L) Con: Adds logistical difficulties on part of the buyer. They have to transfer in inventory (and then possibly move it long distances), apply to the corp they want and pass the recruitment screening, do extensive research before buying the character, and then suffer all the consequences of "A" if they didn't do adequate research.

(M) Pro: Buyer instantly gains a bundle of SP they did not themselves train for
(N) Pro: Probably? cheaper than SP trading in ISK/SP. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)

SP Trading:
(i) Con: Probably? costs more than a Bazaar transfer. However, this may or may not be true depending on the Extractor + SP training cost (for 500k SP it is 1/4 PLEX + 300? Million ISK)

(ii) Pro: Does not have any of the Cons of Bazaar, specifically A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L
(iii) Pro: Increase SPs on your main who has the reputation, corp history, sec status, character name, race, gender, inventory in all the right locations, has already passed corp recruitment, is sitting in a station that you choose.

(iv) Pro: Increase SP without any auditing capabilities of where that SP came from. Why is this important? EVE is a game of reputation, and consequences for choices you make. When there is no audit process of how you are funnelling SP from disreputable alts, we turn EVE into a game where character choices no longer matter. Any corp theft, and corp spy can be recycled at a 20% SP cost (or less!). Conversely, the buyer never learns how to be careful and how to do research.

(v) Pro: Add SP to whichever skills you want, in any order you want.
(vi) Pro: Not limited to scarcity. No upper limit on SPs being generated. Bazaar characters of all different kinds of professions can be found, but good characters are scarce. SPs will always be available. To give an analogue, in Bazaar Logistics V will not always be available at the price point or package (ie: character) you want. However, SPs will always be available on market, and always at bargain basement prices due to the nature of one-click-buy market goods.

(vii) Pro: SP will be the only passive income source in the game not subject to any shipping logistics (read: zero effort).

As you can see Bazaar and SP Trading are two completely different animals. It is a specious argument to insist that CCP is not adding a fundamentally different mechanic into the game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Maekchu
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3359 - 2015-10-18 22:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Levi Belvar wrote:
Have you actually started a new toon lately, you get 400,000 sp's now, they throw skillbooks at you left right and centre , theres all manner of ships to be got running the tuts, when we started there was nothing and 5k theres the door goodbye. How much more you wanna dumb down a game for newguys ...... may as well stick a few orcs and dwarfs in at this rate.

I know of the SP change to new characters and I was also a big supporter of that.

Fun fact: Some older characters actually started with 900k SP.

Why do you think SP correlates with the difficulty of the game? SP trains by itself. You only need to put skills into the queue and wait. There is nothing hard about it. It only takes time.

The reason EvE is difficult, is not because it is a hard game to play mechanically. The PvP system, is basically lock-shoot (unless you solo/small-gang, which adds a few extra factors) and the PvE is laughably easy.

The reasons EvE is difficult is:

- Clunky UI
- Huge amount of different items
- A vast amount of stuff you can do, but little guidance
- Community based (meaning you actually need to be social and create bonds, which can be hard in a game where no one trusts each other)

SP have nothing to do with the difficulty of the game, so I don't see the problem with giving the option to players to get to the point, where EvE is actually enjoyable (as well as giving them some form of goal in their initial playing time).
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3360 - 2015-10-18 22:00:29 UTC
Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.

EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.

The argument is that the character is simply the sum of its parts. Deconstruct and reconstruct SPs and functionally you have the same thing.

A character is more than the sum of its parts, and in order for the idea of a character retaining value, the SPs it has trained have to remain "trapped" inside that character. Why? Because everything else the character does is also "trapped" inside that character.. the metagaming choices she's made, the history she has with others, the Corps she's joined, the ships she has destroyed. None of these things can be wiped out because I believe we have an unspoken agreement that in EVE what's happened to a character is something they keep for the rest of their life. How can Skill Points, which is the most fundamental non-meta mechanic in the game, suddenly be divorced from characters wholesale without devaluing characters themselves?

The argument is that if you don't like your skills, and you want a different skillset, then go to the Bazaar and buy another character. But in doing so you have to sacrifice the reputation and the name of the character you have now.. the one you don't like so much. A character's race and gender have massive significance inside the EVE roleplaying community. A character's name has massive significance in all of EVE's communities. These character qualities are part of an important sacrifice that is missing in SP Trading, and simply putting a higher ISK/SP price on it is missing the point.



Part 3: SP Trading is Pay to Win

I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.

Is PLEX pay to win? No for 2 reasons:
1. Buying shinier things doesn't make you a better player automatically
2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the ISK to get a PLEX

Is Character Bazaar pay to win? No for the same 2 reasons as I listed for PLEX.

Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons:
1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money.
2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.



Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.

Let me list the ways:
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.



Part 5: What can CCP do instead?

I think I've provided logical, rational, not emotional reasons for why SP Trading will be bad for EVE.

What can CCP do better to improve gameplay?

1. Fix skill training boosting implants so that they don't give players a reason not to undock
2. Improve all the irritating little things in UI that detract from us enjoying the game (there are massive lists that can be found in F&I).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.