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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2361 - 2015-10-17 07:40:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.


just gonna nip this one in the bud - no, i'm not.

however with this new system i'd probably start selling SP packets. i have an account that just has 3 PI characters on it. i'd simply use the SP to pay for the gametime as i don't need more than ~15 days worth of SP on those characters.
Exactly!

And so will countless others...

PLEX allowed the ISK-earners to trade their ISK for game time.

Now we'll have this, that will allow the SP-earners (anybody that doesn't really need full-speed skilling on one or more of their accounts) to trade their SP for game time.


I admit I'm starting to like this...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2362 - 2015-10-17 07:42:19 UTC
Aischa Montagne wrote:
Hmm, why dont you add the Option to Sell a character as a Contract?

Contracts do have Auction feature. Setup Price for the Auction could be the 2 Plex.
And Bam, you have all features in game that are currently done in the Forum.

I see following Advantages:
# Character Auction is sufficently tested by the community. Prices are set by them. -> Low Game impact risk
# Development cost should be low (What you need to do is add Plex Pricing, plus generate a Character Item that allows you to browse the Auctioned Character. (Browseing the Auction Character is a feature that is in the game. you may need to generalize this feautre thought.)

I see disadvantages on Skilltradeing:
# Skilltraining devaluates by the Price in the market. (Drops the Price to low no one wants to skill.)
# High Risk to break the game, by destroying market price of skillpoints.
# High development Invest. You need new features like the 2 Items.
# This will impact a lot of People

I do not see the advantage you see. People want to play one role, not Pay for skillpoints.


I would add to the Aurem Market:
# Chirugial Services to change your Character
# Renameing Services

Renameing Services note: Please add a notification of all renames to people if they have them on the Contact list.
Just that a rename Service has been taken. So People know.

That is my Idea for now.

This post makes you like a character farmer. The difference between character bazaar and skill trading is mainly that one is exist and another is not. But this does not make one acceptable and another is dangerous.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#2363 - 2015-10-17 07:44:00 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:



I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and
gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.



Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves.


Not to say that you are wrong but the AWOX changes might have contributed to that decline as well. Recruitment chat used to be full of AWOXers looking for a corp to join. Although most of the spam was done by corps recruiting, so you're probably right.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dave stark
#2364 - 2015-10-17 07:46:12 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Not sure if Stark (as a character seller, if I understood correctly) will have advantages.


just gonna nip this one in the bud - no, i'm not.

however with this new system i'd probably start selling SP packets. i have an account that just has 3 PI characters on it. i'd simply use the SP to pay for the gametime as i don't need more than ~15 days worth of SP on those characters.
Exactly!

And so will countless others...

PLEX allowed the ISK-earners to trade their ISK for game time.

Now we'll have this, that will allow the SP-earners (anybody that doesn't really need full-speed skilling on one or more of their accounts) to trade their SP for game time.


I admit I'm starting to like this...


Is it really any different to me taking my purely PI account and using 1 character slot to make say - a perfect naglfar pilot - and then selling that on the bazaar?

people who want to sell SP for isk were already able to do so. got an empty character slot on an account? dual training and away you go.

this system is something we've already had for a while - just in a less convoluted format. also the SP isn't being made from thin air and with the diminishing returns this creates an SP sink and will limit the supply.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2365 - 2015-10-17 07:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Laodell wrote:
Something else I haven't seen mentioned.

Sec status would be meaningless. It's bad enough that Empire is already more dangerous than 0.0.

Instead of putting a gank alt out long enough to grind positive status back or train a new alt. These alts could be created almost daily. Start a new alt every day and pay to skill them up. Hit targets in 1.0 space with no indication something foul was afoot.

Honesty within the community has been brought up in many different forms in this EpicThread so far, I don't need to rehash those issues.

All this 'feature' would accomplish is help the dishonest in the game scam ever more. Increase the ability of spies to infiltrate target corporations with impunity and destroy any semblance of trust this game requires.

This idea sounds like it came straight from the goons.


The real question for CCP here based on the evidence presented so far as I and many others before me interpret it is:



What kind of players do you want in the game?

-- People that recognize consequence and work to build a good reputation?
-- People that want game mechanics to help them lie, steal and destroy?


Choose wisely CCP. We will be voting with our wallets.

Actually both opption is necessary. I can't remember last time when I watched film without any problems in it which was solving by characters successfully or not.

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from."

P.S. To washing sec.status by sec.tags from -10 to 0 costs about 250kk isk. If SP for blast Catalyst will be higher than that there will be no point for SP injection in gang alts . By now blaster specialization can't be learned on trial account.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2366 - 2015-10-17 07:54:17 UTC
Karin Yang wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:


That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you can’t just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because it’s real.

People are going to disagree with this violently and I’m fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a character’s past so disheartening.



Great points, though I omitted most of it.

I'd add that the learning process was/is a 'hook'. It helps define end goals and mistakes, and gives a player a sense of satisfaction when the goal is achieved. In turn, the time spent feels like an investment you have made in your own, real, character.
Your money, your time, your character, your creation. It's all important to the mental process when you decide to keep that account subbed.
IMO, if you want long term players, you need long term end game goals. The current 'frigates online' state of EVE is already a short train with no real investment. And hasn't that already proven that it doesn't improve player base? Pretty sure it correlates directly with the decline of EVE player base.

If 1,000 newbs buy skill points and still lose their cruisers in pitiful fireballs, they'll just be 1,000 frustrated newbs.
Skill points won't make them 'better', nor will it make the game more fun. Fun is strictly a state of mind.
But whether they quit or stay, they're going to devalue my character in the process.


Subscribe and then dock in station doing nothing seems a huge challenge for you towards your goal? It is devalued because what you did is not valuable at all. It's not reasonable that someone is more successful only because he is older. BTW, it needs trillions of ISK to max skill your character, I don't see you have accomplished that goal after this change.


Or you could choose to not be lazy ass and find fun on your own? Ie not demand everything on the plate. There is fun to be there since day 1, there are things to learn, explore etc.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2367 - 2015-10-17 07:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Dave Stark wrote:
just in a less convoluted format
Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE...


Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to:

. Know about the character bazaar
. Learn how it works
. Learn how to make a decent, sellable character
. Post on the subforum, follow the replies
. Do the transfer correctly
. Make sure you follow all the rules
. Etc....
. EDIT: wait several weeks or more for the char to skill up a bit <-- another HUGE difference, the new system is 'instant SP-to-ISK'


Tomorrow you just need to:
. Buy an extractor in Jita
. Fill it
. Sell the packet in Jita


It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2368 - 2015-10-17 08:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?



i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible.

buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.



Maybe that's because that's a horrible mentality to take when coming into any game. What kind of expectation is it that someone should be able to pick a game that's been out for so long and suddenly be able to go toe-to-toe with the best? How is that at all reasonable? If you want something like that play a MOBA not an MMORPG. Stop the bastardization of a genre.


"we should tell new players to get ****** and refuse to allow the to even attempt to have a level playing field with veterans" and we wonder why the pcu is declining?



No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well.

If people want CS gungame, they should go play it, not try to make EVE a game like that...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2369 - 2015-10-17 08:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?



i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible.

buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.



I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done.


It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.


none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".

nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist.

we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet.

in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this?

if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too.


Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...

I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2370 - 2015-10-17 08:02:48 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?



i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible.

buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.



I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done.


It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.


He's probably a Dev alt.
Dave stark
#2371 - 2015-10-17 08:05:00 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
just in a less convoluted format
Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE...


Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to:

. Know about the character bazaar
. Learn how it works
. Learn how to make a decent, sellable character
. Post on the subforum, follow the replies
. Do the transfer correctly
. Make sure you follow all the rules
. Etc....


Tomorrow you just need to:
. Buy an extractor in Jita
. Fill it
. Sell the packet in Jita


It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.


it's not huge though.

what have ccp systematically been doing for the last few years? removing all the convoluted crap causing eve to just be an obtuse and uncooperative game.

this idea in itself is nothing - essentially it's nothing more than one of karkur's little things like tidying up the UI (and we all now how awesome they are, and why it has made karkur one of the communities favourite devs). nothing actually changes within the game but the game simply less obtuse and that improves the game without changing it.

pretending this idea will kill eve or something is completely laughable. if selling SP was going to kill eve, it would have a long time ago with the bazaar. clearly the game hasn't died so selling SP really isn't that big of a deal. is there honestly a legitimate reason why it should be obtuse and difficult to use?

i don't recall seeing mass calls for the removal of the bazaar - so if i seem condescending in half of my replies on earlier pages it's because i regard those people, quite frankly, as hypocrites.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2372 - 2015-10-17 08:05:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".


This seems to bypass the EVE experience and removes any consequences involved with any choices made by a player.


EVE was founded on premise of everybody has a choice and behind that choice there may be consequences. When injecting skills over the 9 years playing EVE I have made some good and bad choices with my characters and learned by my mistakes, this is a part of the EVE online experience and grows you into a more experienced/knowledgeable pilot. Though I have traded characters for the best majority of these tis still not the same as hot swapping skill points and there must be better options than suggested by the OP?

Even giving a new player more starting SP and a selection of starting roles and pre skilling needed skills to give them a turbo boost into the game content would sound more viable.
Dave stark
#2373 - 2015-10-17 08:07:19 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...

I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those.


start what?

you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2374 - 2015-10-17 08:07:45 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well.
Don, I apologize I'm starting to slip towards the dark side too... Lol


Re your point, I enjoyed every minute of being a new player. I'm still relatively new after 2 years.

At the time, I had the option to sell PLEX obviously, to make ISK faster. I never did, because I enjoy the challenge more.

But I never once cared that other players could have more ISK than me by buying PLEX. To each their own. I even felt prouder to do it 'the hard way'.

Couldn't the same philosphy apply to SP trading? We all know that more SP gives you more options, but certainly doesn't make you a better player... Why not let the 'shortcut lovers' pay more than the hardcore gamers?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2375 - 2015-10-17 08:08:29 UTC
thebarry wrote:
Why are all these nerds talking about pay2win? You can buy characters right now through the bazaar, if that's ok then whytf isn't buying sp ok too? I have 20m I'd happily sell off...I think this is a fine idea.


No difference between this and the bizaar? Why not just sell that ugly mutt of a character now and quit whining about that 20million sp you misspent over the years your character developed.
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#2376 - 2015-10-17 08:09:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


start what?

you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.

thats the thing... read them where they were made in the first place... trolllololo

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2377 - 2015-10-17 08:10:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
just in a less convoluted format
Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE...


Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to:

. Know about the character bazaar
. Learn how it works
. Learn how to make a decent, sellable character
. Post on the subforum, follow the replies
. Do the transfer correctly
. Make sure you follow all the rules
. Etc....


Tomorrow you just need to:
. Buy an extractor in Jita
. Fill it
. Sell the packet in Jita


It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.


it's not huge though.

what have ccp systematically been doing for the last few years? removing all the convoluted crap causing eve to just be an obtuse and uncooperative game.

this idea in itself is nothing - essentially it's nothing more than one of karkur's little things like tidying up the UI (and we all now how awesome they are, and why it has made karkur one of the communities favourite devs). nothing actually changes within the game but the game simply less obtuse and that improves the game without changing it.

pretending this idea will kill eve or something is completely laughable. if selling SP was going to kill eve, it would have a long time ago with the bazaar. clearly the game hasn't died so selling SP really isn't that big of a deal. is there honestly a legitimate reason why it should be obtuse and difficult to use?

i don't recall seeing mass calls for the removal of the bazaar - so if i seem condescending in half of my replies on earlier pages it's because i regard those people, quite frankly, as hypocrites.
I'm not saying this will kill EVE, but I'm pretty sure that both supply and demand of SP will skyrocket because of an incredibly easier way to trade it.

It's like going from barter to currency.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2378 - 2015-10-17 08:11:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dont start again. Either counter argument my arguments which were made 50 pages ago or drop this stupid "no one gave any arguments". And there were others who did some solid arguments as well...

I hope CCP are not shallow as it seems at the moment and that they will take an effort to read all arguments. And then provide us answers on those.


start what?

you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.


Start with shallow spam and stating no one gave arguments without actually countering them. If they are weak you should have no problem to challenge them, other way you are just troll/spammer.

And there are arguments, saying they are none will not make them disappear as they are written down in the topic. So anyone actually caring to read the topic will see your "game".

I am going out now, but i will gladly read your counter arguments later tonight and discuss on them. If you make them that is.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave stark
#2379 - 2015-10-17 08:12:22 UTC
Hulk Miner wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".


This seems to bypass the EVE experience and removes any consequences involved with any choices made by a player.


EVE was founded on premise of everybody has a choice and behind that choice there may be consequences. When injecting skills over the 9 years playing EVE I have made some good and bad choices with my characters and learned by my mistakes, this is a part of the EVE online experience and grows you into a more experienced/knowledgeable pilot. Though I have traded characters for the best majority of these tis still not the same as hot swapping skill points and there must be better options than suggested by the OP?

Even giving a new player more starting SP and a selection of starting roles and pre skilling needed skills to give them a turbo boost into the game content would sound more viable.



this system has a myriad of consequences. the quite literal isk and/or real money cost of extracting SP. then the diminishing returns where reallocating that SP magically destroys up to 90% of that SP.

bypass the eve experience? that's exactly what the character bazaar does now. i assume by "eve experience" you mean "waiting an abitrary amount of time for a timer to expire so you can do something else"?

so we're already bypassing things, and consequences still exist. we haven't removed any consequences and bypassing things isn't new.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2380 - 2015-10-17 08:14:31 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
No.We all were the very new players. Majority of us started in harsher conditions than they will, we develop through much harder times. And we played through it. And actually had fun and still have nice memories out of it. So I do not see why should it be problem for them as well.
Don, I apologize I'm starting to slip towards the dark side too... Lol


Re your point, I enjoyed every minute of being a new player. I'm still relatively new after 2 years.

At the time, I had the option to sell PLEX obviously, to make ISK faster. I never did, because I enjoy the challenge more.

But I never once cared that other players could have more ISK than me by buying PLEX. To each their own. I even felt prouder to do it 'the hard way'.

Couldn't the same philosphy apply to SP trading? We all know that more SP gives you more options, but certainly doesn't make you a better player... Why not let the 'shortcut lovers' pay more than the hardcore gamers?


No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know