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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#1421 - 2015-10-16 07:40:16 UTC
I am still not sure whether I like this or not, but I can see some big problems (probably menntioned here earlier):

1. Hacked and compromised accounts. It is easy to follow the stolen items and isk and the char is also easily tracked. But if then someone gets access to a high SP char he can just turn him into SP-packs and sell it for -10% on the market. By the time the investigation is concluded most of these SP will be inside many other pilots heads.


2. Newbieboosting. For one I think this will not really be an optional thing. Everyone starting the game will feel obliged to buy a few million of SP. Because they want to try out more stuff and T2 is better and easier.


3. The other really big problem I am affraid of is how recruiting new players will become impossible.
You will even more than now see the big divide between the rich and the not so. The big and rich groups already have better PR, more help with recruitement and are way more visible. They already take most of the new players while smaller groups are left in the dust. After these changes the rich groups will for sure give out SP-packs for new members. Probably not from the start but after a few months of being with them. And how can anyone tell a newbie in good conscience to pass on something like that because your small group needs more members. When the rich groups can advertise with "stay 3 months and get your char C5 escalationready or in a rattingcarrier."


4. The charakterbazaar is hard work. You have to spend hours on ther searching and updating to get something you like for a reasonable price. And it can take weeks. This heavily affects how many people use it. If I can get unlocated SP in jita everyone and their mothers will do it. Also you are no longer stuck with ****** names.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1422 - 2015-10-16 07:40:23 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool



Yep. Pretty much as simple as this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1423 - 2015-10-16 07:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Teckos Pech wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.


Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP...

AND...

to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer...

I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be

Wait for it....

18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around £220...



A PLEX will sell for about 1.2 billion ISK. How much does a 5 million SP character sell for on the character bazaar?


About 2.5-3.0b just to cover trasnfer fee + small interest

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1424 - 2015-10-16 07:44:08 UTC
Skinzee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.


Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP...

AND...

to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer...

I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be

Wait for it....

18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around £220...



Yeah, I think the numbers being bandied around are hilariously optimistic. As you say, I can't imagine the sp-creation-widget being less than half a PLEX to a PLEX in real money, and naturally, yet again, a new use for PLEX/Aurum will again spike the price of PLEX on the market, so the current price is going to be a distant memory. Oh, and you need one for every half million sp. Plus, multi-Trillionaires will be buying the packets off the market like they are going out of fashion, both because they can afford to eat the diminished returns, and because this will immediately be the new speculators wet dream.

Anyone who thinks a newbie is going to be able to get a sniff of one of these packets is floating in their own unicorn-and-rainbows dreamworld. Still "Skill packets are too expensive" will make a change from "PLEX are too expensive" posts P
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1425 - 2015-10-16 07:44:48 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool


No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Carneval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1426 - 2015-10-16 07:46:02 UTC
Little bit of "darkorbit" thingie? This system can be abused in very much serious ways.. And change complete whole mechanics you guys were developing many years. SP is very sensitive topic for us, you know that.. Please upgrade the char bazaar instead. I understand you lack new players, but changing your whole philosophy of your unique child that makes... EVE Online that makes EVE Online? As a programmer, it would be as changing Java for Oracle.. Different game. Keep us, your community rather than losing 1/2 of us.. Yes you will maybe gain twice as us, but for what cost? I would rather sent you chilli pizza to think fuking off new greater ideas ;) this one is bad for sure
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1427 - 2015-10-16 07:48:54 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.


A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind"
^^this right here is one of the main reason this idea is idiotic.

If you think you're 'doing it for the new players', think again. You'll just **** off 99% of the potential new players, leaving you with the 1% that are happy to throw hundreds of $ at a game - a subscription game, ffs! - that they just started to play.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1428 - 2015-10-16 07:48:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool



Yep. Pretty much as simple as this.


Not simple at all, as people supporting this for the sake of new players do not realize that it will not help them. While the potential side effects are too big.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dave Stark
#1429 - 2015-10-16 07:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;

500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap.
at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk.
that SP packet will give you 50,000 sp. that means you need 10 packets every 7.7 days.
so, that's 4bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each)
with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 16bn isk.

tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 16bn isk.

this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor.
Chief Powatan
h3h3 Verified
#1430 - 2015-10-16 07:49:58 UTC
CCP, you've fueled a Jita riot against skill trading.

http://postimg.org/image/gwcqfk325/

Do you really want to do this?

Nine protesters and rising.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1431 - 2015-10-16 07:51:33 UTC
Skinzee wrote:

Really? Your in Code. and from what ive seen... You all run around in Catalysts killing freighters... How long does it take to actually train for a Catalyst? 2hrs?

and your idea of creating a "SP farmer"... You still have to pay RL cash to transfer the SP... Are you going to spend £20 every 500k Skillpoints? that would be around £50/month + £10 sub fee.... Yeah... Sounds logical doesnt it? -.-

The fact that creating a 'boosted character' would cost a S**T ton of RL money... like, I mean... in the 1000's of £ to get anywhere near even 150m SP... How many people in the world do you think will actually SPEND £1000's on 1 character?

I wouldnt... I wouldnt anywhere near that... I would spend enough to get my character to 10-15m SP so I can fly a few ships decently and have fun... Rather than running around t1 cruiser and t1 guns and t1 drones doing missions just out of boredom!

Did you even read my post? The creation of a gank alt takes 16min without additional SP. So I can use the whole SP produced with the PLEX which allows me to play with that account and turn them into packs which I can sell on the market.

All the required things will come from the market (PLEX for SP and the item to create packs from the SP). The ISK price for the SP packs will always be above the ISK costs for producing them with PLEX/AUR which means you will get a free alt.

If you still don't get it: I don't need the SP on the gank alts, so I can sell them for gametime + additional ISK.

And I get more additional ISK the more accounts I will use this way.

Not really difficult to understand..
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1432 - 2015-10-16 07:51:40 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool


No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;)
Dude, there's so much knee jerking in this thread you could have a line dance competition.

Note to self: Organize a line dance competition for next fanfest.

Mr Epeen Cool
Georgiy Giggle
Senclave
Apocalypse Now.
#1433 - 2015-10-16 07:52:14 UTC
Sorry, but it's a bullsh*t.

Why are you trying to please new players? Why aren't you trying to keep veterans? Are you wanna be a WORLD OF WARCRAFT, where new players coming every day and when old players living after 3 months, after reaching a maximum of possible?

Remove shi*y aurum out of game!!!

Remove all donate and other crap that ppl do not need (but yes, you, CCP need it because of money).

If you want extra profit - as somebody mentioned - add ability to change nickname and/or gender for a PLEX price.

It's not my fault that I'm smarter than 10 years old guy only because my parent decided to 'make' me 20 years ago!

Skillpoint is priceless. Same as time!!!

And what a point for me to extract my skills point from something useless (actually nothing is useless among a skills) to get 10 times less but more useful?
Me, as a pilot with skillpoints more than 80m, can deduct 500 000 sp to convert it into 50 000.
So as a result that means: I had 80m but now I'll have 79.55m!!! (in case If i decide to change something 'useless' for something 'useful')

Is it a program of becoming ********?
OMG... IDEOCARY is coming.

Stop doing sh*t, you have a lot work to do:
FULL INCARNA
VALKYRIE
DUST 514 FOR PC
CITADELS
NORMAL SHIP-SKIN PROGRAM (as you presented during fanfest)

Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1434 - 2015-10-16 07:54:44 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool


No. Plenty of people have put some arguments and backed them up with expectations/visions based on previous experiences. That is way different from crying. Though i doubt someone involved in politics would understand that ;)
Dude, there's so much knee jerking in this thread you could have a line dance competition.

Note to self: Organize a line dance competition for next fanfest.

Mr Epeen Cool


I am not talking about simple yes or no posts. There have been couple of very detailed posts which summed all the possible flaws (even without mine posts). And they pretty much nuked out the supporters arguments. So it should really be a no brainer for CCP. Though since they come up with ideas like this I am worried if they are already on "no brainer" mode and I am afraid of possible consequences to the game...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1435 - 2015-10-16 07:57:29 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool
If this goes live, I hope you're right, Mr. E-wiener.

But I can't help thinking that, if you feel you're being cheated, leaving a game is much easier than moving to another country in RL...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Carneval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1436 - 2015-10-16 07:57:36 UTC
I know, you know, we know, everyone knows char blackmarket. Nobody cant deny it. Morale is bad about it. But it exist. Its working. I know that, you know that, we know that, everybody knows that. Its community creation. How about to learn from these "pirates" of the space and learn "pvp" what they are using against you? They are fresh ideas, even they are pirate ones. Use those ideas and implement some steucture from them to your benefit. They are community as us. Use ALL your community. Get the ideas. I see its working, Ill think about it, its working, i use it and see... Its life. Get ideas from everywhere. This one is really bad one.
SwissChris1
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1437 - 2015-10-16 07:58:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;

500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap.
at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk.
that SP packet will give you 50,000 sp. that means you need 10 packets every 7.7 days.
so, that's 4bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each)
with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 16bn isk.

tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 16bn isk.

this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor.


If your math is correct than I really have nothing to complain about this change.
Dave Stark
#1438 - 2015-10-16 07:59:23 UTC
SwissChris1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
for some one with 80m SP who wants to buy SP at the same rate you earn it, let me tell you how much that'll cost you;

500,000 SP is required for the extraction. this takes ~7.7 days with +5s and a perfect remap.
at current plex prices, 7.7 days of subscription time is ~400m isk.
that SP packet will give you 50,000 sp. that means you need 10 packets every 7.7 days.
so, that's 4bn isk every 7.7 days. (based on plex @1.2bn each)
with roughly four 7.7 day periods in a 30 day period (the duration of 1 plex) that's 16bn isk.

tl;dr for an 80m sp player to buy 30 days (1 plex) worth of SP, it's going to cost 16bn isk.

this is WITHOUT the cost of the extractor.


If your math is correct than I really have nothing to complain about this change.


it isn't, i just edited it.

you get 50,000 sp, not 80,000 which makes it even more expensive.
Zenax Cordeaux
Ohana Hale
#1439 - 2015-10-16 08:06:16 UTC
One of the most enjoyable weekends I had in Eve was years ago when CCP set Sisi to give all lvl 5 skills to everyone. Then they made all supers available for $100 isk and my whole corp had a blast quite literally ! *yawns, it's interesting how quickly the OMG I'm flying a Titan ! goes away when they are free.
I've always thought the skill system sucked because it's not sandbox. Do away with skills altogether and let people do whatever they want whenever they want to > sandbox / freedom
Actually give them freedom and see what happens. Anarchy ruled by physics.
I predict You will struggle with this yet the newer games coming to challenge don't have this antiquated system at their core and over the next few years it's going to date Eve significantly.
Skills were a good way to make people log on and show active player status. Skills achieved their outcome when they were useful though that time has passed.
The simple way is so often the best. Wormhole space shows You the way to make things really simple and support the freedom sandbox (is supposed to) represent. Too many supers never show up in a WH because of WH mechanics, not because of skills or isk or the committed efforts a corp could throw down. Really simple sandbox.
If You keep adding more ways to make freedom complex and unattainable the only thing I'm going to be looking to trade my character for is a Constellation...
J Livermore
Doomheim
#1440 - 2015-10-16 08:06:35 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.


I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool


I've heard a similar saying, but it was said by former appeal court judge. It was basically like this: when both parties (in civil case) leave court disappointed, the ruling was probably good one.

It's a nice anecdote, but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.