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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Author
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#1301 - 2015-10-16 03:39:14 UTC
Sasha Sen wrote:
If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?



I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed.

The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it.

The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet.
This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself.
Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players.

Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve?

What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.

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NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1302 - 2015-10-16 03:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: NeoShocker
I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.

However, since CSM is my representative to my game and if, short by miracle, 50% of the CSM likes the idea, then I would probably be open to such ideas, but it appears its not a very popular feature you are proposing CCP and I also very disagree with it.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1303 - 2015-10-16 03:43:23 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Sasha Sen wrote:
If this new system does happen, would we still have the old character bazar?



I do hope that, in the long run, the character bazaar is removed.

The main reason is that there are things that buyers do not see about the characters they buy there, like rep or bad killboard, or spying activities, and they are stuck with an expensive character with a bad history without having any idea about it when they buy it.

The neural skill packages will not have this history with them, and as such will be a much better tool for those that chose to spend money over spemding time because their gaming time is more limited than their wallet.
This is not pay to win, as the skill list a toon has does not make a player good at the game itself.
Also, these are not skill created out of thin air, as someone would have had to accumuluate these skills, and it favors younger players.

Eve is a sci fi experience, and it is not very difficult to envision some neural tech stuff to make skill a commodity that can be traded, like everything in Eve. Many sci fi themed stories already have instantaneous skill acquisition, so why not Eve?

What make a character unique is not the skills they have, but their experiences in game.



It would likely stay unless CCP removes it. Things like standings would make it viable. That and buying a well trained character will almost always be cheaper, provided the SP are not "wasted.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#1304 - 2015-10-16 03:43:29 UTC
If only we could get all our newbies to post...

Maybe if we incentivized them with SP packets...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1305 - 2015-10-16 03:44:41 UTC
NeoShocker wrote:
I don't agree with this idea CCP. Sorry :( As a pilot of close to 10 years, I made my choice to train. There is no real such thing as a mistake of training wrong skill because you will eventually need them.



Well...will not the people who buy SP packets make the same choices?

Seriously people talk about choice as if this kind of thing will remove choice when allocating SP. Talk about being rather dumb.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1306 - 2015-10-16 03:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Identity is one penalty. I am just ilustrating that it is not a "sole thing", it is pattern.

I make use of CB regularely, and the reason I do is the reason I dont like it. It allows people to benefit from something I offer, in a detrimental way, to what I could call literally "Character Building".

I am not saying CB is anything better than SP token sale. What I am saying, again, it is a step towards other things caused or demanded by it.

People dont quit for things they consider part of the package. If you know there is a skill timer, and it is a feature of the game, then you wont rage on it. You rage on it only if you somehow joined under the impression it is avoidable given some circumstance.

As soon as skill become easy, it will be irrelevant, and then will be absent. That is the natural consequence, as again, when you remove the need for skill training, after you have enough people who never had it, you wont start having it again. It is what we call here in the south "Acquired Right Mentality".

Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE.

I am not saying this idea by itself is a problem. The problem is once you accept this, it is all downhill from there. You will create "Skill Farms", "Skill Vampires", and the X benefit you give to new players will be 10X benefit to veterans. The overall universe will adjust itself, and Skill which was given to benefit chars to achieve a point will render that point irrelevant, so they will face another obstacle, and the only way it stops is to remove all obstacles.

Again, it is like credit card of Skill points. Once you first used the credit, you have no credit anymore, you just have taxes and delayed payment of purchases. If you use it as credit, at some point you will have no money, no credit and an huge debit.

In a EVE of high tech full functional optmal skill market, skill is a matter of buying, becomes irrelevant, removable altogether, and with it, everything that was put there for it, by it or from it. Might aswell call New Eden New Tyria or New Azeroth.

Let me give you an example:

There was a time you had not the ammount of initial skills you had last month. Now you have it, and another.
There was a time when you should do career agents because if nothing, you would get the skillbooks for free. You would open the help and do the introduction because it gave you skill books.
Some of it were removed. Most skillbooks you would get from career agents you already get the skill when you create the character. If nothing more wrong with that, why should your char come with *Race* Industrial skill if you may never use it ? That is because some, or many, use. But not you. When you could not reach other agents without the Standing boost of career agents, you had to do their missions. Today you dont need to actually. When you tune on the local, npc corp, you see a remarkeable ammount of people with months of playing EVE asking questions they would know by that time in old scheme of learning. That is only getting worse.

When you can simply skip everything altogether, most people will skip everything altogether.

You hit a Plateu of oportunities, you had to come up with a solution. With skill token, you have a more no-brainer way to just buy your progress out. CB identity may be irrelevant to you as outside perspective, but when you try to see it as a regular newbie does, you will see that identity is more imporant than you think. And that prevents people from just buying their way out of skill plateau.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Akako Higanjima
Beacon Mental Hospital
#1307 - 2015-10-16 03:47:06 UTC
The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can. The character bazaar, while similar, has its own drawbacks - namely in the form of shady character history or a bad name. This though - there's very few drawbacks to simply buying SP to bypass training time. Hell, you'll even save money on subscription fees, assuming you're not already PLEXing.

Yes, player skill is also very definitely involved, and SP count doesn't make the pilot. But if you've got the ability to simply grab more SP when needed (or more accurately, to have a wealthy corp or alliance grab SP for you), it allows for players/corps/alliances/whatever to very quickly promote newer pilots into ships that can be incredibly destructive, but are effectively point-and-shoot. Just inject the free SP, allocate it to whatever you damn well please, fleet up, and F1 away.

All in all, the idea has some merit and shouldn't be dismissed outright, but it needs a serious rework from what we were presented with here. The benefits do not outweigh the costs, by any means.

Perhaps selling a skill itself - or having the SP not be unallocated - might be an interesting compromise. For example, let's say I train up... I dunno, Jump Drive Calibration. Everyone hates that skill. Now, I extract 500k SP from Jump Drive Calibration and sell it. If that SP that I've extracted from my own JDC skill could only be used for the buyer's JDC skill, then that leaves a lot less room for exploitation than just "Here's free SP, go put it in whatever the hell you want" - you have to find a seller who's selling the specific skill you want, and even then, chances are good that you'll need to find several sellers for longer, more complicated skills. It would sort of work in a similar vein to the current character bazaar - you have to shop around for the skills you need, rather than just having a win button that can be injected anywhere.
Landrik Blake
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1308 - 2015-10-16 03:50:20 UTC
I like the idea of being able to respec my character, or liquidating my unused alts to sell for ISK or inject into my main. However, when I consider the full implications of open skillpoint trading, I die a little inside.

There are players out there with hundreds of billions, even trillions of ISK to burn on this, and even when you account for the fact that all the skillpoints have to come from other characters, there will always be a market for it. This means that the rich can accelerate their training at a faster rate than the poor, and that is Pay-to-Win. This is the sort of thing that will cause riots in Jita.

If you want an in-client mechanism to trade characters, then make characters a tradeable item on the market. If you want the option to customize the new character, then have a mechanism to rename the character after purchase (this would be used as a general mechanic to shed bad reputations, but it's not unrealistic to have people change their identity for a cost). I think there's already an item you can get from the NEX Store to re-do a character's appearance.

If we must have skillpoint trading, then it should maintain the relationship to the skill. For example, extract 10,000 skillpoints from your Mining Frigate skill and sell them as Mining Frigate skillpoints, only usable on the Mining Frigate skill. That way, someone buying skillpoints for Capital Ships means someone else is losing skillpoints in Capital Ships. But even that is probably going too far.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1309 - 2015-10-16 03:50:27 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE.
There is little merit in entertaining slippery slope hypotheticals, especially those not in CCP's interest. The creation of SP from nowhere or the elimination of the character advancement are so out of their interest by my reasoning that there seems to be no reason to entertain it.

Aside from of course CCP wanting to end Eve, but at that point the discussion is still pretty pointless.
Laodell
Executable Inc.
#1310 - 2015-10-16 03:50:38 UTC
Quote:
There will be a new item type called ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints



That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.



Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game.

You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ is just another item on the market.



I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1311 - 2015-10-16 03:52:28 UTC
Akako Higanjima wrote:
The idea of skill-point exchange/trade is interesting, but the only thing the current system will do is further separate people in large alliances from smaller ones. It'll effectively be the death of any corp or alliance that cannot afford to keep feeding their corp members SP, as they won't be able to compete with those that can.


I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1312 - 2015-10-16 03:55:15 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Quote:
There will be a new item type called ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ that can be consumed to give any character unallocated skillpoints



That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.



Yea, that's just really offensive, to put so much time into your toon and then have that effort and agonizing over which skill to train next into so much currency. Most of Eve Online is an investment of significant cerebral equity of which SP is a dominant measurement of time actively spent investing in your character and the goals you set for yourself in the alternate reality we call a game.

You can already buy everything else in the game for cash through the PLEX system. The ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ is just another item on the market.



I will be a very sad panda if my favorite alternate reality is hurting so much for cash that it's masters would have to do that. Convert your backend to Linux if you have to. You will save so much money not having to rent a 'licence' for each and every server.


Okay, you failed at reading comprehension. The only way to fill a Transnueral Skill Packet is to drain skills from an existing character.

As such the amount of "SP" on the market will be limited. By definition. Anybody doing any "reasoning" (and I use that term very lightly as very few are using reason ITT) who is assuming this is a blithering idiot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1313 - 2015-10-16 03:56:12 UTC
Laodell wrote:
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.
This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?
deadsilent
POS Party
Ember Sands
#1314 - 2015-10-16 03:56:38 UTC
No this is a horrible idea. keep it so the skill points stay on the character that trained them. These skills useful or not are what make the character who are we. you want to just chop characters in to bits a pieces to sell on the market is horrible idea.
((CCP Rise & Team Size Matters)) I bet you keep Minmatar slaves around just so you have a stock pile of BIO-MASS ready at a moments notice. MEH Amarrian SCUM


Love DeadSilent Big smile
Epic Name
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1315 - 2015-10-16 03:56:50 UTC
Finally! I wholeheartedly support this awesome change.
Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#1316 - 2015-10-16 03:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
I like to post from time to time so i can't really tell you all what i think about your reaction here, but feel free to swing by reddit where we can talk openly about how incredibly wrong you are.

(this post is directed at players, not developers, i think the idea itself is amazing, and that comes from somebody with 162 million perfectly placed skill points that I've crafted over years. I can't even imagine how many people would have stayed if what they want to do was around when they tried EVE. The collected player reaction here is wrong, and not just wrong, its like a flailing spastic paint huffer on a weekend pass from rehab kinda wrong).

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Akako Higanjima
Beacon Mental Hospital
#1317 - 2015-10-16 04:00:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.


Of course it won't be; that's a given. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that of the "x" number of SP Packets that become available, the bulk of them will go to corps/alliances that do have an overabundance of disposable ISK - leaving players in smaller, start-up corps, where funding is much tighter, at a distinct disadvantage.
Veishe
Rubbish
#1318 - 2015-10-16 04:02:22 UTC
Buying or re-locating SP means

YOU CAN GET REIMBURSED YOUR MISTAKE WITH RL MONEY.


So i think this can be cool nonlogically, but let's think a little bit more.



What do bros think If someone can clean wrong killboard, corp history by just paying isk?

This idea has same logic with CCP's disgusting idea; to allow reimburse mistake or loss with real money.



Now you bros will understand what is problem, what is wrong.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1319 - 2015-10-16 04:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Tell me, if you remove skill from EVE, which has already no progression in any other form, how you impose obstacles to be overcome in order to acquire and enlist effort from a player ? That is the first paradigm of WoWnization of EVE.
There is little merit in entertaining slippery slope hypotheticals, especially those not in CCP's interest. The creation of SP from nowhere or the elimination of the character advancement are so out of their interest by my reasoning that there seems to be no reason to entertain it.

Aside from of course CCP wanting to end Eve, but at that point the discussion is still pretty pointless.


As in many aspects of human Psyché (pardon the french, literally, lol) , you are just isolating an aspect of a broad discussion to make it unimportant as it is if you dont take past into consideration.

A bullet in the air is not deadly. A bullet that has travelled from a gun barrel into the open space in a path that traces from said gun to the forehead of a person is most likely deadly to that person.

Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".

This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Ocelot Ehecatl
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1320 - 2015-10-16 04:04:43 UTC
I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?

The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!

Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP