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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#941 - 2015-10-15 22:18:45 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Because SP has a value which will be diminished if you can liquidate unwanted skills and trade them with other players in the form of unallocated SP. A better question is why do you feel like you are such a special snowflake that you think you are entitled to buy skills which others have had to wait for for the last 12 years?

I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP?
The diminished value of SP is a non-issue in my mind. I've frequently disagreed with the idea that SP re-reimbursement needed to be so strict and we have the perfect means to address that here for every instance in which it was potentially justifiable.

And the whole special snowflake reasoning is BS. The character Bazaar already bypasses that here and now. The only difference is not being able to control the identity, which, ironically the solution you proposed is actually built into this system; it would cost me a 90% loss of any removed SP to actually place new skills on this character.

The loss of efficiency ensures that those skill removals still come at a price.
IV0 SANADER
REMETINEC
#942 - 2015-10-15 22:19:01 UTC
EVE is ****** up anyway since Jump Fatigue, entosis link, than you boost a drake make it good platform again, after that you announcing missile disruptors on something that is hardly working good, people dont know anymore what to do, we older guys are barely logging, i had played with 10 acc before all capital pilots titans supers etc now i play with 1, last few months they are not active while there is no game content for that kind of game, before i had in my corp 105 active members now i have 35 active rest is offline with expired accounts, you destroying this game and will to play it, god know what kind of **** you will do with citadels and removing poses, and now this with skills i think you are insane while you have not much sunlight up there, or some ass in CCP trying to sabotage everything, only ting you need to do is get game as it was before jump fatigue, rewrite that shity system to multycore processors on servers that there is no TiDi let us jump and fight in capital fights use our supers and we will get you fights like B-R5RB or 6VDT-H and on that kind you can get players to come back and that will get you even more new players ingame
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#943 - 2015-10-15 22:19:52 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
There is only 1 way that I'd be willing to support this: Using a Skill Extractor consumes a Neural Remap.

This would seriously curtail the abuses that would otherwise be rampant with the proposed system. Young characters could make mistakes or change their minds by using up those bonus remaps to get rid of skills they don't want while older characters would have to make meaningful decisions about whether they want to make a skill packet to sell/transfer to an alt or remap for faster training in the coming year of their planned training queue.

This would also help stem the flood of Skill Packets on the market since each character could only make 1 per year (not counting bonus remaps). I'm unsure of how I'd feel about an option to extract more than 500,000SP at a time, but if you're only allowed to do it once per year I think being able to extract more than 500,000SP to create multiple skill packets at once would need to be considered. Most people earn about 23-24mil SP/year and I think maybe being able to extract up to 25mil SP/year in exchange for your yearly remap would be acceptable, but it would need to be done all at once with all the accompanying AUR fees paid in one lump sum (ie: if you want to extract 25mil SP then you're going to lose your yearly remap and be forced to consume 50 Skill Extractors at once to generate the 50 Skill Packets you'd be creating). Or maybe instead of consuming your yearly remap each Skill Extractor used would instead increase your Remap timer by an amount of time, say 15 days. There by limiting a character to creating 2 Skill Packets per month, or 24 per year.

I don't know. It's a tough issue and it definitely needs more consideration and a lot of community involvement. This idea of Skill Extractors and Skill Packets being sold in game on the market isn't an entirely bad idea. But the system as described certainly isn't a positive change for most players because it stinks of a pay to win style of gameplay where anyone with enough money to throw at the game can instantly compete with veterans that have been playing for a decade or more. I agree that the Character Bazaar could definitely use some love, but I don't believe this is the best way to address it.


Pro-logic right there: Limit the amount of times it can be done. +1

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Quesa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#944 - 2015-10-15 22:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
Ok so, let me try this again.

Moving the character bazaar to the client might be a good move but allowing someone to parse off skillpoints so someone else can effectively buy skillpoints is all kinds of wrong and a horrible precedence to be setting.
Jeann Valjean
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#945 - 2015-10-15 22:21:39 UTC
Before the "details" section the blog was interesting. Then I read the details and felt like it was Christmas morning and the big shiny box with my name on it only contained a smaller shoebox with a pair of used, dirty socks.

And no, I don't say that because this is any more "pay to win" than buying PLEX and using the bazaar as it is now.

This idea is so terribly misguided because the blog can't even make a logical connection between its premise of subpar character control when using the bazaar, and the need for trading SP packets in diminishing returns.

Alternate proposal:
Why not leverage the Mastery system and let people remove/inject whole blocks of skills at once? That's what we're all looking for anyway- not "unallocated SP".

If I have an industry character with 51m SP, and I want to start using a JF, let me search the market for people selling "Jump Freighter Mastery IV". Maybe none are available or at a good price at the moment (same as the bazaar), and I have to choose to either overpay or wait? Still gives me freedom of choice, and doesn't penalize me for having 51 mil SP in industry and wanting to take my character in a different direction.

Maybe on another PVP character I want to get into BLOPS. I've got some racial BS skills at IV, which is included in the BLOPS Mastery III that I want to purchase. What should happen to my sense of entitlement for "wasting" those SP that I'm getting anyway from purchasing the mastery package? I should HTFU and acknowledge this is a far better system than having to buy another separate character.

What happens when I'm in Jita and someone offers to sell me Titan Mastery V because they're leaving the game, and are selling it for only 75 billion ISK? I'll spam accept on the trade window because i'm a dumb pubbie and didn't realize it was another scam. Now I'm out 75 billion and have to go find some ISK doublers again!

Seriously... there are good ways to pull this off. The existing proposal is not one of them.

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#946 - 2015-10-15 22:22:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.

Exactly the same thing


No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it.

On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers.

With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market.
Ursula Thrace
Dreamland Augmented Consortium
#947 - 2015-10-15 22:22:22 UTC
atif09
Ltd Angel
#948 - 2015-10-15 22:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: atif09
Just saw the new dev blog

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/

Unless I'm mistaken this will allow players to drain unwanted characters of their sp and simply gorge their mains with all the sp until they get a supreme maxed character?


There was once a game called runescape whose developers let you buy sp for in game currency and rl cash want to know where that game is now? it's dead.


On the same topic what is with the abysmal returns on sp investment?

Lets say I have an unwanted alt with 50mil sp which I drain in to a packet and give to my main which has 100 mil sp does that mean I will get a return of 50k sp per 1 mil sp?

that would mean I would get 2.5 million sp for 50 million sp.....that is just awful

Please reconsider inputting this update into the game. but if you absolutely have to please make the sp trade more fair


how about making it a linear trade system where the more sp you use on a character the less the returns?


Thanks
Provoked Comatose
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#949 - 2015-10-15 22:23:12 UTC
I approve!

Same thing as buying a character as is now.
^pay to win?

Keep same character, same name, same corp +1

Gives players that fubar'd with mining skills a way to remove that from list, make some extra isk on the side.

Been playing since 06, one of the best change proposals I've seen.... RIP Nano fleets =(


-PC
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#950 - 2015-10-15 22:24:42 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.

Exactly the same thing


No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it.

On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers.

With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market.

So, your argument is that the new system is a little more efficient than the character bazaar? That a small increase in efficiency is the straw that broke the camel's back?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#951 - 2015-10-15 22:25:39 UTC
from a Roll Playing perspective this change shatters my suspension of disbelief.

Time is the fire in which we burn.

You can never get back any time you wasted.
This was the case in the EVE skill training mechanic.


Well it used to be.

Edwin Wyatt
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#952 - 2015-10-15 22:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin Wyatt
Finally I can get rid of Mining II on my PVP character.

I think they need to iron out some of the details but I like the idea.

Any vet who has seen change should welcome an opportunity to change up their skills if mechanics change, if their not, I would assume no change would make them happy.

Why not at the same time reconsider the way skills are trained on a character, instead of the skill queue which everyone hates to watches tick by slowly.

Instead allow players to accumulate skillpoints in a pool which they can apply whenever to whatever, this would allow you to do away with attributes and instead focus implants on a bonus of how many SP you get per min / hour. It would give me more of a reason to log into the game and see how many skillpoints I have available to use for skills.


+1 CCP your on the right track.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#953 - 2015-10-15 22:26:26 UTC
Quesa wrote:
This is ******* stupid.

Why does Rise still work for CCP?


I'm gonna stop you right there. CCP Fozzie rightly complained about Fozziesov taking after his namesake, the stuff he writes about often represent the work of a whole team, not just himself.

There's no way this is just the result of CCP Rise. There will be buy-in from executive management, from marketing, from legal, this kind of thing doesn't just happen in vacuum. Team Size Matters are likely the developers and designers who are working on the details and implementing this feature. CCP Rise is the fella bringing us the words.

Don't be a **** trying to shoot the messenger.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#954 - 2015-10-15 22:27:00 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
No, it would not. Yes, after x time you will have the same amount of skill points over all characters involved. However, with the new system you have that one character you need much quicker and exactly like you need it.

On the character bazaar you can only buy an alt, if one is available. It will more than likely not be perfect and you will have to compete with other potential buyers.

With the extractors, you just make it yourself. With 5 training accounts in 1/4 the time, with 10 in 1/8, beyond that it will probably be even quicker than looking for a suitable alt on the market.
With this system, the transfer isn't perfect, you will waste SP dependent on the amount needed total. Unless the end result is under 5m SP, the total training speed for one character being fueled by 4 will range from a 400% bonus down to a 40% bonus.
Anastasia Nikolaeva
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#955 - 2015-10-15 22:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anastasia Nikolaeva
...
Alexander Vasslo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#956 - 2015-10-15 22:29:40 UTC
No thank you, this made me throw up a little in my mouth.
I would stop playing if this happened, for sure.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#957 - 2015-10-15 22:29:47 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Quesa wrote:
This is ******* stupid.

Why does Rise still work for CCP?


I'm gonna stop you right there. CCP Fozzie rightly complained about Fozziesov taking after his namesake, the stuff he writes about often represent the work of a whole team, not just himself.

There's no way this is just the result of CCP Rise. There will be buy-in from executive management, from marketing, from legal, this kind of thing doesn't just happen in vacuum. Team Size Matters are likely the developers and designers who are working on the details and implementing this feature. CCP Rise is the fella bringing us the words.

Don't be a **** trying to shoot the messenger.

ESPECIALLY their financials people. Adding a new character transfer mechanic messes with their bottom line.

According to the devblog, there are 70 transfers a day. That's 140 plex a day, or 4200 a month. That's a pretty big "shadow" subscriber count! They will be reticent to alter that without buy-in from people who manage money at their company.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#958 - 2015-10-15 22:29:59 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.


No.

First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players.

Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK.

Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#959 - 2015-10-15 22:30:11 UTC
The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.

1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win. Yes we have the ability to purchase alts for isk, but finding a perfect designer alt is very rare. Finding a suitable alt with rough edges is the norm. This proposal removes the rough edges and makes the purchase of perfect designer alts more efficient.

2. Eve has long been sold as a harsh universe. Mistakes are painted as costly. Decisions have consequences. Training the wrong skills on an alt was a tough learning experience. This creates a perceived undo button.

The perception many of us have about Eve is that it is dying while CCP attempt to adjust some of the core elements of the game. A common perception is that CCP are breaking those core elements. The strength and speed of the feedback in this thread alone should warn CCP that they need to change the perception the playerbase has of tradeable skill points before that gets lumped into the negative perception that they are intent on breaking Eve.

It is a pity the rabble rabble generated by this devblog has drowned any positive perceptions created by the patch blog yesterday which I thought looked very positive.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#960 - 2015-10-15 22:30:25 UTC
Longpost below, TL,DR here: this is a terrible idea that will be of very limited utility to most genuinely new players and will primarily be used by established older players who want hyperspecialized tailor-made <50m SP alts. If you want to help new players, then do something that helps all new players, not just those with large amounts of ISK or RL cash to burn.

To expand on the first point, while the devblog goes on at length about newer players wanting to go from flying Stilettos to Armageddons, let's try to estimate how many of these intrepid newbies will actually be able to take advantage of this feature. At the moment, the going rate for highly focused alts on the bazaar seems to be around 800m ISK per million SP (estimate based on this thread). So, to replicate Kil2's example from the devblog and go from 15m SP to 33m, you'd need to spend at least around 14b ISK. This is almost certainly an underestimate because it neglects the cost of the skill extractor and the fact that you'd only get 400k SP per packet rather than the full 500k, but let's roll with it. As of 2012, the average <30m SP character had a wallet balance of less than 700m ISK. So let's be realistic here: the average new player is not going to be using this system or able to benefit from it in any way. A very tiny minority of hyper-dedicated new players or whales who throw large sums of RL money into their MMOs may use it, but it is absolutely not going to be something that is accessible or relevant to typical new players.

So, if the feature will be irrelevant to typical new players, who will use it? Well, as above, you're going to need quite a bit of money to get involved, which means it's far more likely to be well-established players who either have a lot of in-game wealth or are deeply committed to the game and therefore willing to spend lots of real-world cash on it. Obviously, the diminishing returns system makes it unattractive to use skillpoint boosts on a high-SP main character, but it seems perfectly suited to the creation of focused special purpose alts - want a dedicated bomber alt, T3 boosting character, dreadnought pilot, or triage carrier guy? No problem - just create a new character, buy ~10b of skillpoint packages and you're good to go! What this means is that you're going to see far more rapid swings in the meta towards whatever becomes FOTM.

There is (IMO) an overwhelmingly strong case for allowing new players to accumulate SP more quickly than they can at present. What you're proposing isn't it. Rather than making it easier for newbie-Kil2 to instantly go from 15 to 33m SP, you should find ways to improve the NPE and accelerate new players' skillpoint acquisition so that all new players benefit and get to experience a wider range of ship types and play styles during their first year or so.