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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#881 - 2015-10-15 21:46:18 UTC
No. This is not a good idea.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#882 - 2015-10-15 21:46:21 UTC
Opner Dresden wrote:
You want a particular skill on a particular character? Train it.
Why should that be the only option? If someone else is willing to sell it, why can't I buy it like anything else? No one tells you if you want a ship to mine for it and build it yourself. Why is this different?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#883 - 2015-10-15 21:46:23 UTC
Aristash wrote:
If CCP adds Skills for Aurum(plex)

Aristash and 3 other alt's will stop paying for Eve online.

Stop doing stfu thing with my Eve!

Kick producers of Eve right now, You must playing in Eve then do something with game.

CCP you are not playing anymore. Shame on you...

Good thing they are not adding Skills for Aurum, then.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Arec Bardwin
#884 - 2015-10-15 21:47:34 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it.
Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying.
Just show me the difference between:
a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market.
b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.

Yep there is none :P
Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable.
But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game.
Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.
You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#885 - 2015-10-15 21:47:37 UTC
Fredou wrote:
No please no

I'm not going to read the previous 44 pages

why on earth would you want to do this? really


i have started playing eve nearly 10 ½ years ago

i have over 230m sp

you can gain about ~ 24m per year

why would you want to kill this?


How do the proposed changes kill anything?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#886 - 2015-10-15 21:48:21 UTC
This is a good change in my opinion. It will really help people who are looking to upgrade their character, but don't want to change the background, story, reputation and history that they've created.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#887 - 2015-10-15 21:48:44 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it.
Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying.
Just show me the difference between:
a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market.
b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.

Yep there is none :P
Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable.
But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game.
Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.
You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?

How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#888 - 2015-10-15 21:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.

But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

"Some small in-game mechanism" is literally liquidating the SP of others, and applying it imperfectly towards your character.

I suppose if you were deliberately obtuse and boiling down the whole thing into that disingenuous quip then it'd be different.

It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens:

$$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice.

It's like SOMER Blink. Lot's of stuff happened in that scheme, people won prizes, community events were organized, etc. But, in the end, RMT still happened. You can twist it all you want, but RMT is RMT.

And here? Yeah, there's a twist. The matador has a shiny red cape with the word "liquidating" embroidered and everything. But, in the end, I am buying instant, bulk SP for my character with cash going to CCP. It is what it is. Direct purchase of bulk SP via CCP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#889 - 2015-10-15 21:48:50 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I am amused that the "solution" to the character bazaar being out-of-game is to destroy it entirely.

SP for money is a bad idea. The people most able to exploit this feature will be those setting up short-lived characters on new accounts.

The beauty of the character bazaar is that you are paying for the right skills, not just a number of SP. Bonus points for clean history and a good name.

Rather than SP for ISK, bring the character bazaar into the game. Allow ads on bulletin boards and CQ screens.
It's actually gaining SP from equal or more SP+money given up. It's essentially the bazaar without buying the name and history with the character.
Sjxx
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#890 - 2015-10-15 21:48:51 UTC
Excellent idea. I really hope this is implemented soon...can't wait to start shopping! Big smileBig smileBig smile
Jack De'alek
Shattered Earth Industries
#891 - 2015-10-15 21:51:32 UTC
Querns wrote:
Jack De'alek wrote:
This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.

This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.

The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.

Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.

No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous.

You have a very strange concept of "purity" when the Character Bazaar exists, brazenly allowing you to circumvent these imagined ideals.


Yes, the bazaar exists, but in it's form it is still impossible to circumvent maximum possible sp. As I said, I would benefit immensely from the purchase of sp, but I'm disinclined to believe that any implementation of any feature that allowed characters to surpass these limits is a good idea.

Allowing characters to inject skills breaks a CEO or recruiter's ability to properly vet recruits and secure themselves against potential loss.

Quick battlefield assessments can no longer be counted on to find weak links in enemy fleets. To that end, those that prey on the weak will no longer be able to choose victims properly. Basically any informed decision that can be gleaned from character age through a quick show info or any other method short of an api check is no longer accurate.

The above are just a couple of tangible examples of the results of such a system. All i'm saying, is the consequences of allowing characters to exceed their maximum SP are gamebreaking, or at the very least game changing, and I'm fairly sure there's plenty more I haven't thought of. I really don't think it's a good idea.



Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#892 - 2015-10-15 21:52:19 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

If, some years ago, you told me that by paying a small fee to CCP + some in-game mechanism I could directly add as much SP as I desired, to any character that I desired? I would've laughed. Eve was about meaningful choices, long term planning.

But now? Well....like the man said: "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here."

"Some small in-game mechanism" is literally liquidating the SP of others, and applying it imperfectly towards your character.

I suppose if you were deliberately obtuse and boiling down the whole thing into that disingenuous quip then it'd be different.

It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens:

$$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice.

It's like SOMER Blink. Lot's of stuff happened in that scheme, people won prizes, community events were organized, etc. But, in the end, RMT still happened. You can twist it all you want, but RMT is RMT.

And here? Yeah, there's a twist. The matador has a shiny red cape with the word "liquidating" embroidered and everything. But, in the end, I am buying instant, bulk SP for my character with cash going to CCP. It is what it is. Direct purchase of bulk SP via CCP.

Again, as I have strenuously pointed out, the character bazaar does the exact same thing. Has for years. CCP gets theirs on every transfer.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#893 - 2015-10-15 21:52:23 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
It's not obtuse at all. I pay money to CCP. I gain arbitrarily large amounts of SP on an arbitrary character of my choice. Someone else loses some arbitrary number of SP. It's a clever twist, but, here's the rub, this still happens:

$$$ to CCP <------>Direct, instant, arbitrarily large SP gain on any character of my choice.
This is untrue. Giving money directly to CCP as proposed only gives you the capacity to remove SP from an existing character. At the point of giving money to CCP, this is the only thing you can do, and must be done in order to actually generate the SP for another character to use.
Hauke Martensen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#894 - 2015-10-15 21:52:24 UTC
I've been playing EVE for close to 3 years now, no bittervet yet but no new player either. With or without this proposed change I expect to continue playing for quite some time to come.

But had Transneural Skill Packets been in the game when I started playing I most likely wouldn't have made it past my first year (maximum - 3 to 6 months more likely) before unsubscribing.

For one thing it doesn't matter if the proposed mechanic really is pay to win or not: for a new player it definitely looks like pay to win and I refuse to really get involved into games like that. I may fool around with them for a while, but I won't immerse myself in them and I know right from the start that I'll drop them within a couple of months.

But more importantly the skill limitations during my first months were a, if not the main factor, that forced me to really commit to the game, that made playing EVE that intense of an experience when I started and that got me completely hooked up in the end.

I went into fw within my first month of playing EVE, right from the start with the intention to become a pvp pilot. I knew very well that I wouldn't be able to compete with pretty much everybody else in that area for quite some time, but I also knew that the time it would take me to become at least somewhat competetive would depend on how fast I would get an understanding of the game and on how well I would be able to apply that and plan ahead - read on my skills as a gamer. So I dived into the game, I spend hours a day searching for online resources and digesting them, I planned ahead, fumbled , adapted my plans, improved, fumbled again, changed my plans another time and so on and so on. It took me roughly 2 months to find a fit (a single fit) that should work out for my style of playing games and the meta at the time, then I started training specifically for that fit. After another month or 2 I figured out a way to change it to make it more versatile and effective, so I changed the fit and the training plan once again (I'm flying a variation of that ship to the very day btw). And then I started to get better with the ship, both with regards to skills and with regards to skill as a pilot.

And all the time I knew that if I messed up in any way, if I missed crucial points of the game mechanics, if I screwed up my skill plan or messed up in any other way that could mean me losing weeks or months to reach my goal of getting competetive in pvp.

It was frustrating. It was glorious. It was intense. In some ways it was one of my best times in this game.

Now imagine the same thing with the possibility to buy SP. There isn't half as much on stake for you during your first few weeks or months. Even if you refrain from taking the easy way to just fix any botches you make with your credit card (or use it to instatrain into the skills you believe need) you know that there would be the possibility to do so and that other people are doing it. This diminishes your sense of achievement.

If this is about player retention: I believe that the key point for that is immersion and there are different kinds of that. One kind of immersion is immersion with the mechanics and structures of a game and Transneural Skill Packets will take away from that big time and in my opinion won't add to any other

If it is about opening another source of revenue for CCP (which is legitimate): there are ways to achieve that which won't alienate large parts of the player base. Corporation and alliance skins come to my mind straight away here.

But please, pretty please, don't do this. As mentioned numerous times above this system is open to exploits in many ways, but more importantly, it will change the feel of this game radically in a way that I'm not looking forward to.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#895 - 2015-10-15 21:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Throwing my -1 into this idea.

No to any form of Skillpoint Trading or "skill booster packs." Not only were certain promises made during the Incarna fiasco but it simply opens a Pandora's Box of issues and potential gaming that will do little good for your average player and provide more benefit for deep-pocketed min/maxers.


If I might suggest something to the DEVs...

have you considered that part of the reason you are having some subscription issues (and thus money issues) is BECAUSE you are trying to broaden the appeal of EVE through, let's be honest here, GIMMICKY STUFF LIKE THIS?

EVE, still being what it is, will continue to turn off anyone who doesn't like this game type. Meanwhile, doing stuff like this alienates those of us who came to here BECAUSE of the lack of stuff you are trying to introduce.

It's like watching the small town you moved to build a mall and fairgrounds to attract more people... when you specifically moved there because it was a small town!!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#896 - 2015-10-15 21:55:19 UTC
Jack De'alek wrote:

Yes, the bazaar exists, but in it's form it is still impossible to circumvent maximum possible sp. As I said, I would benefit immensely from the purchase of sp, but I'm disinclined to believe that any implementation of any feature that allowed characters to surpass these limits is a good idea.

Allowing characters to inject skills breaks a CEO or recruiter's ability to properly vet recruits and secure themselves against potential loss.

Quick battlefield assessments can no longer be counted on to find weak links in enemy fleets. To that end, those that prey on the weak will no longer be able to choose victims properly. Basically any informed decision that can be gleaned from character age through a quick show info or any other method short of an api check is no longer accurate.

The above are just a couple of tangible examples of the results of such a system. All i'm saying, is the consequences of allowing characters to exceed their maximum SP are gamebreaking, or at the very least game changing, and I'm fairly sure there's plenty more I haven't thought of. I really don't think it's a good idea.

Why does "maximum possible SP" matter to anyone, or anything, at all?

Why do you need to "vet" recruits by SP? The character bazaar exists. Furthermore, simply plug the following formula in:

SP / pilot age = 2700

and if it's above that, it's a red flag.

Using pilot age to perform battlefield assessments is a laughable concept. Again, the character bazaar exists. I have only been playing since 2010, yet I own a 2007 character.

The whole concept is incredibly brittle. You've probably lost quite a bit by relying on it, and don't even realize it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#897 - 2015-10-15 21:57:18 UTC
Go for it ccp, change how it have been forever. like the change to multiboxing, (broadcasting) witch was allowed for 10+ years, then it got changed because some people raged about the very few people who did it large scale. now people can feel how it is going to be robbed for a big part off the game as they like it, and play in. lol LolPShocked
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#898 - 2015-10-15 21:58:02 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Lots of hysteria here without any reasons behind it.
Eve is already pay to win and some "pro" vets are now crying.
Just show me the difference between:
a) Buying plex with money, selling it on market and then buying a char for isk on the character market.
b) Buying plex with money, seling it on market and then buying skill points for isk from another character.

Yep there is none :P
Apart from the fact that the new idea is a lot more comfortable.
But hey we have a "vets cry thread" now. Sometimes I think the old players are killing this game.
Eve is already pay to win. All you need is isk or RL money to buy toons and multibox.


You are in the camp of "I don't care about my name". That's fine. There are others who ARE concerned about their name. Because this is Eve online.

One name. One reputation. And everyone in the cluster knows it.

But I would still vouch for a name change that changes ID as well for a fee, maybe even skillpoints lost.
What I want even more like detailed in my last post, is having the ability to move skillpoints inside of your character, without loss. Just pay for the item, and do it.

Then we can also get rid of attributes and make the remaps we get as a timed measure to move skillpoints around at no cost. And if we want to move more? We pay.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#899 - 2015-10-15 21:58:07 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Yeah yeah it's a game, but come on. Transferring skills? I always thought when you trained, you were READING a skill BOOK.

I thought skills were injected.

Then why is it a book and why does it take several months to train? I know it says "inject skill" but work with me here.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#900 - 2015-10-15 21:59:31 UTC
kraken11 jensen wrote:
Go for it ccp, change how it have been forever. like the change to multiboxing, (broadcasting) witch was allowed for 10+ years, then it got changed because some people raged about the very few people who did it large scale. now people can feel how it is going to be robbed for a big part off the game as they like it, and play in. lol LolPShocked
I would still be able to train skills the same way I have since 2010. Not a single thing would be robbed or changed.