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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Stable Cusp
Quintec Wormhole Exploration
#281 - 2015-10-15 17:11:59 UTC
Please, no. And please don't try to disguise this as a form of character trading.

Character trading offers engaging options for players. You can carefully craft a product, and reap the benefits of accurately reading the market. Carefully craft, including name, skills, standings, and reputation within the community. In its own way, developing a character for sale is not so different from any other industry.

Anonymizing skill points, so I can take all those Mining Barge or Research Project Management levels and turn them into the just-released, new ship skill completely eliminates that.

If you think the problem is skillpoints holding people back, then remove skills. I don't think that's the issue though. I can't tell you how many people I've seen post, excitedly, in chats "X hours until I can fly [ship]" Those people have spent days or weeks anticipating their new ability, like a kid anticipating Christmas. That bit of knowing something is out there, but just a little out of your reach, is an incredible motivator. If you let any new player just come in and buy enough skills to fly a carrier or a titan - that is not a player who's going to engage and stick around.
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#282 - 2015-10-15 17:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mynxee
UPDATE: Upon reflection, I've changed my mind about this proposed change and blogged about why.

It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".

I am strongly opposed to any change that would let characters sell what amounts to "skillrights" to other characters for reasons stated by Chribba, Ripard Teg and others in earlier comments. An important and unique feature of EVE is the sense of investment. SP as a result of training choices are a huge part of that. Besides being unnecessarily complicated, the proposed system is likely to cheapen that sense investment and could backfire with regard to how much value people would attach to their characters under such a system. When people feel less invested and characters can just be mindlessly churned, they won't get attached to their characters and thus no real emotional investment in their in-game identity.

What is a potentially reasonable alternative to address skill training "mistakes" or never-gonna-use-em-again skillpoints would be a very limited capability for a character to draw a small % of existing skillpoints into a pool that could then be reallocated for other skills for THEMSELVES ONLY. At least that would still have some consequences attached to it for that character. Any such thing should always be discernible via API keys and should be expensive to perform and only allowed once in a blue moon.

There are also better ways to support new players in "catching up", one of which is just bite the damn bullet and start them with a million SPs, some allocated to basic support skills and some unallocated. I started playing when characters began with 900K allocated SP; while I recall certain frustrations in not being able to fly certain ships for awhile, I never felt particularly crippled and certainly was able to enjoy fleets with friends from pretty much the get-go. You could also do a LOT more to aid new players in making more informed early skill training choices by providing more explanatory info in skill descriptions about a skill's use, its general priority in the big picture, and complementary skills that make sense to train in a linear or alternating sequence.

tl;dr The dev blog's proposed idea is ripe for exploitation and cheapens that very important sense of investment in a character that helps new players feel committed to the game.

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#283 - 2015-10-15 17:12:56 UTC
Banedon Runestar wrote:

First, the economics are terrible. At the cost of 2 PLEX per 500,00 SP, you're not going to get any takers. That's 2B+ ISK and climbing everyday, the Character Bazaar isn't nearly so expensive.

CCP has not yet set the price of the skill extractors. It will probably be quite a bit cheaper than 2 PLEX.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Seraphina Sazas
Avanto
Hole Control
#284 - 2015-10-15 17:13:26 UTC
Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it.
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#285 - 2015-10-15 17:14:32 UTC
Drilla wrote:
The only way this could remotely be a good idea was if you could only transfer SP internally in your account and a character that has received SP can never be transferred off the account.

That will allow people to create specialized alts instead of having all SP on one char/queue.


Nope, with dual char skilltraining already in place you could possibly train 3 characters on one account and boost just one with the XP from the other. That is exactly how one would pay to get XP.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2015-10-15 17:14:50 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.

I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.

What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine.

Unfortunately, this is not possible.

Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2015-10-15 17:15:01 UTC
IBFroggy Sukarala wrote:
Pay to win? Great! I`m out!


You never knew about the character bazaar or how you can buy PLEX with RL money then convert the PLEX into ISK? Really?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kyria Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#288 - 2015-10-15 17:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyria Stenory
Yey, it's time to train "useless skills" on all my accounts, and every 2-3 month i'll get 1m SP faster....

Seriously, no. No way. I really hope it'll never exist.

Seraphina Sazas wrote:
Pay to win. Bad idea, don't do it.

How are you going to "win" only with SP gain ? ^^
General Twitch
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#289 - 2015-10-15 17:16:22 UTC
I like this idea.

Right now I can buy a character with a bunch of SP. I can buy +5 implants and increase my SP accumulation rate. This would be a third option to accomplish the same goals. I know players who will not undock because of their expensive implants and potential lost training time toward specific goals. Allowing players to accomplish these goals in a more expensive but faster way would lead to more people undocking. Ive heard constant complaints about risk aversion due to implants, lack of content and painfully long training times, often from old players. This plan can help address (not fix) some of these issues. I hope more experienced players will honestly think about this and provide constructive feedback so an SP system like this can be implemented.

PS please, please stop with the RIP eve stuff. It has chased multiple people I know IRL away from this amazing game. That's content you would have had for the last year that the doomsayers have chased away.

Twitch


TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#290 - 2015-10-15 17:16:28 UTC
Insidious wrote:
plex prices will be 4billion soon : ))))))



As long that the PLEX prices do not show an unhealthy sprint up or down CCP does not matter, they won't interfere. Nothing new, move along people, move along.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Amanda Orion
WinterFel
Requiem Eternal
#291 - 2015-10-15 17:16:47 UTC
No.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2015-10-15 17:17:04 UTC
Mynxee wrote:
It's almost like you're trying to turn skill training into some weird market mini game. Or wondering how you're going to avoid screams of despair due to some planned elimination of skills that people have spent considerable time training already. Or perhaps you're just trying to milk more cash from new players desperate to "catch up".

Skill training is already a market "minigame." Visit the character bazaar for more details. I, personally, keep some of my accounts isk neutral by training pilots specifically to sell on the character bazaar.

Mynxee wrote:

"skillrights"

This is a good phrase.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#293 - 2015-10-15 17:17:30 UTC
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
#294 - 2015-10-15 17:17:33 UTC
I do not like this proposal.

Let me elaborate. IRL, time is one of the most valuable commodities. It’s one of the few things you can't buy more of. I like that EVE has kept consistent with this reality through the years. Time in EVE boils down to SP generation and has always been the one of the more difficult limitations to work around. Sure you can go to the Bazaar and purchase a new char that fits generally into your game plan. But it won’t be perfect; you’ll have to do some additional work, end up getting more that you wanted, have to deal with a sordid past or have to wait until that right build comes along. Point being, there are drawbacks that you have to accept to get what you want.

I think pretty much everyone agrees, ISK is easy to come by in this game. Creating a drawback in the form of ISK is pretty meaningless. Based on the proposed implementation, it feels as though there will be no downside to buying or selling SP. You’ll be free to build reasonably high SP characters without having to be invested in the game or its community. This also makes choosing a career path less of a commitment. It removes the risk from choosing and pursuing a given profession because with a little ISK I can be anything else in a few moments.

This may sound silly, but I view my SP (which is in excess of 100M) as a sort of badge indicating my commitment to this game and community. It’s the one aspect of the game that has encouraged me to keep my accounts subbed and generating SP. Because I know I can’t just go to the market and buy SP, I keep my accounts subbed even when I’m not actively playing. This proposal turns that upside down. Why bother keeping my accounts continually subbed, when I know I can just buy more SP on a whim? Granted it will come at a cost, but what’s a few billion ISK?? The bazaar doesn’t allow this kind of exchange and shouldn’t imo.

That being said, there are certainly improvements that can be made to facility the exchange of characters. It would be nice to see an in game market for this and the ability to rename characters, but please reconsider allowing the exchange of SP. It seems like an easy fix on the surface, but I’m concerned about the lasting impacts it will have on the game and community as a whole.
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2015-10-15 17:17:51 UTC
All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...

Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...

My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..

Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...

That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).

If I had the option to spend £20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.


What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.

I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.

I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.

All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...

IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!
Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve
Aureus Alae
#296 - 2015-10-15 17:18:24 UTC
Oh wow, and i actually think you're serious about this...
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#297 - 2015-10-15 17:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
Jebus christ, its like you guys try to come up with the most idiotic ideas at drunken partys, then select the dumbest just to see what the players feel about it.
And this has to be the biggest brainfart idea ccp has had in years. No, just no.

I know your player count is down, but i can promise you it will drop like a stone if this gets implemented, as i expect a ton of vets to bugger off. I know i will if this goes through.
Having played this game for 11 years just to see anyone all of a sudden catch up on sp cause they wanna spend rl money on it is just so far beyond ******** that i dont even have words strong enough to describe what i feel right now (at least not words that wont make me get a massive forumban)

Tho i do take comfort in the way CCP prices things, that you will expect that players are gonna be willing to pay a months salery for a 5m sp boost or something, so there is that Lol

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Naughty Cargo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2015-10-15 17:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Naughty Cargo
Robnik Charante wrote:

I have been playing this game very actively for two and a half years. I have never once felt limited by my SP in any regard. There's plenty to do and learn at each step along the way. If you do feel limited and are also wealthy, the character bazaar, MCT, and alt accounts are perfectly fine means to quickly acquire additional toons.

^^^^ This.

I think this is the first time I have ever commented officially on a proposed change, but this one, as others have expressed, ruins the complete and utter fundamental of what makes EVE a unique game. The time and training aspect is one of the things that attracted me in the first place. And Pay to Win makes me feel a little bit nauseous, like the game is stooping to a new (and more common) low in the realm of online computer gaming.

While I can't claim to fully understand it, and I apologise if I have misread something (it is currently 4:15am- AU timezone... yay. :P), this seems to be a way that the richer, older, not very new players will be able to exploit their past bad decisions for more iskies, and not a lot of risk or loss.

While I haven't really invested my time into it greatly, elements in game like the Opportunities feature add more to the starter gameplay that simply inputting some credit card details. Being able to explore and engage with the universe is one, if not the main, feature that makes this game great.

This idea in its essence, could also spike the cost of PLEX even more than its already RIDICULOUS high, and, as someone who is not able to spare the rl monies to sub, and quite likes having a life away from the computer and trying to farm isk for Game Time, I would be greatly annoyed that evidently anyone who has to PLEX to play would have to spend even more time and effort on things that take me away from PvP, for the benefit of people who can't be bothered to make an effort at all.

"On top of all that, you have to accept that you don’t get any personalization of the character you’re buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy."

One of my favourite things about starting EVE was the ability to create my own new characters, and I still enjoy the process I have to go through to create a character. Its like the Sims, but better, cause spaceships :P I agree that it would be good to have a way to change character names (including a log of past names), maybe with a limit on the number of changes one character can go through in its lifetime? Its already possible to fiddle with a character and change it already ( when I did it, it only cost me on PLEX at the time- and I could change almost every aspect of Naughty), so how would this change in any way benefit the personalisation problem, beyond the already established methods?

Like Robnik here, I am by no means a vet, and Naughty is only just 3 years old (as of 5 days ago), so this is not just someone whining because I spent 'years and years and new players get everything and older players get **** on, whine whine...whinge'. And hells, I'd be lying if I didn't say that the idea of investing some monies (even though I get screwed by the exchange rates) for instant SP is one that makes me smile! But even with that being the case, I would miss the satisfaction that comes from, plain and simple, making an effort. How else do we learn but from our mistakes?

Also, and on a far more important note, 'Skill Training Completed'. <<< Pure satisfaction.
DaOpa
Static Corp
#299 - 2015-10-15 17:19:19 UTC

Transneural Skill Packet - Cap this to working up to 25 million SP (max) with no diminishing returns.

Also may think of adding in a Cooldown Timer on "Transneural Skill Packet" - the more you use it, the longer the cooldown gets for you to reuse another one ...


About the Character Bazaar, get it out of the forums and implement a savvy ingame UI for it. This will make it more visible, safer to use by being able to list characters right from inside the client, simpler transactions... maybe even more automated on your end?

My thoughts
Big smile


Aethelrian Kasenumi
Adeptus.Custodes
#300 - 2015-10-15 17:19:26 UTC
Mynxee wrote:


What is a potentially reasonable alternative to address skill training "mistakes" or never-gonna-use-em-again skillpoints would be a very limited capability for a character to draw a small % of existing skillpoints into a pool that could then be reallocated for other skills for THEMSELVES ONLY. At least that would still have some consequences attached to it for that character. Any such thing should always be discernible via API keys and should be expensive to perform and only allowed once in a blue moon.

There are also better ways to support new players in "catching up", one of which is just bite the damn bullet and start them with a million SPs, some allocated to basic support skills and some unallocated. I started playing when characters began with 900K allocated SP; while I recall certain frustrations in not being able to fly certain ships for awhile, I never felt particularly crippled and certainly was able to enjoy fleets with friends from pretty much the get-go. You could also do a LOT more to aid new players in making more informed early skill training choices by providing more explanatory info in skill descriptions about a skill's use, its general priority in the big picture, and complementary skills that make sense to train in a linear or alternating sequence.



I could accept this. If you could internally swap a portion of SP from useless skills to useful, there would be no net gain of SP on a character. I would still want to see some limits on the number of times this can be done per year, or a limit on how much SP one could manipulate like this.

And yes, I agree that newer players should get a bit more SP to help them feel relevant. Several of my friends who I convinced to play EVE left simply because they took breaks to train skills and just never came back. One million is not excessive, especially if it is pre-specced out to allow newbros to fly basic fits for PVE and PVP.