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Nerf Webs
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2015-10-11 16:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:



I disagree, I am frequently on the other end of that spectrum, and a web on its own is enough to handle a lot of business on a frigate, from the battleship's perspective seeing as the battleship is extremely likely to have neuts AND drones. In more cases than not is the neuts plus the scram and the singular web that make the kill on the frigate from the battleship.

You only needed seconds because you read the title, not the OP. You may know how those ships work, but I know exactly how this situation plays out, whichever way you cut it, the frigate is at a HUGE disadvantage, but that doesn't matter, but the point is that this change, under the stipulations that the battleship is engaging the frigate the result of the webs effect is almost the same the single web that you have on the battleship would be enough to slow an af down to slightly less than half. With this it would simply be at its base speed if it was using an afterburner which is at actually a greater loss than the webs we have currently; however, it would remove the agility penalties that effect the frigate so that it can actually maneuver still and not just be a brick in space with absolutely no relative tank whatsoever.

Seriously, the entire point of the ship class is so that it maneuver under the guns of larger vessels and fight that way. That is literally how the ship is supposed to work, but currently it doesn't work that way unless you gimp the fit and/or bring skirmish links, or just avoid the situation altogether by bringing and interceptor and/or garmur to mess with your life the exact same way, and that is exactly what happens now, there is so much anti-tackle, anti-brawl equipment available, that people just forgo brawling in that respect altogether. Your battleship should be worthless against a frigate that is underneath your guns, that is the point of the entire class, but this change the OP suggests doesn't even go that far, and you still don't get that.

Tell me what is worse, having a frigate underneath your guns that you can not hit with your main weapons but still have scram/web/neuts active on or, a kitey Garmur/Interceptor pointing you from 30-40k away that you can not interact with at all other than when he ninja dives you for a scram to stop your mjd. That is exactly what the meta is like right now. At least the brawler frigate has to come into range and during that window you have a chance to deal massive damage, and cripple it before it even gets into scram range. Current meta doesn't call for that though, you know why? Because it is hardly possible, and why do it when I can easy mode kite you? You know why the current meta is kite oriented? Because brawling harshly forces commitment. Kiting does not. Brawling is a near death trap against a larger target because scrams/webs/neuts/drones. Kiting doesn't have to deal with three of those things and only scarcely is bothered by the fourth.

When you are up against a larger ship, he basically has a triad of modules that very well can make impossible to enter commitment range, against him. Kiting deals with none of that, maybe if brawling wasn't such a terrible option for engaging a large majority of targets like that, the meta wouldn't be what it is today, but I guess you like having an Orthrus kite your battleship to death; it is more dignified right?


Well we now know you have never flown a battleship now.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#42 - 2015-10-11 16:12:05 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
90% webs are limited to exclusive ships.

As long as there is no end to bumping, I am against any changes to webs because freighters do not have prop mods and require webs.


I was referring to pre Web nerf webs. btw
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#43 - 2015-10-11 16:16:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Bring support.


So now I cant solo in the ships I enjoy and have enjoyed for the last decade?


perhaps think of it another way, why would small ships be able too use a super powerful tool?
maybe webs could be sized :-

small - 35%
medium - 45%
battleship - 55%

maybe webs could have higher fitting and cap consumption scaling with that strength - looks at officer webs massive pg requirement, along with falloff added, and range could be scaled too.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#44 - 2015-10-11 16:19:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:



I disagree, I am frequently on the other end of that spectrum, and a web on its own is enough to handle a lot of business on a frigate, from the battleship's perspective seeing as the battleship is extremely likely to have neuts AND drones. In more cases than not is the neuts plus the scram and the singular web that make the kill on the frigate from the battleship.

You only needed seconds because you read the title, not the OP. You may know how those ships work, but I know exactly how this situation plays out, whichever way you cut it, the frigate is at a HUGE disadvantage, but that doesn't matter, but the point is that this change, under the stipulations that the battleship is engaging the frigate the result of the webs effect is almost the same the single web that you have on the battleship would be enough to slow an af down to slightly less than half. With this it would simply be at its base speed if it was using an afterburner which is at actually a greater loss than the webs we have currently; however, it would remove the agility penalties that effect the frigate so that it can actually maneuver still and not just be a brick in space with absolutely no relative tank whatsoever.

Seriously, the entire point of the ship class is so that it maneuver under the guns of larger vessels and fight that way. That is literally how the ship is supposed to work, but currently it doesn't work that way unless you gimp the fit and/or bring skirmish links, or just avoid the situation altogether by bringing and interceptor and/or garmur to mess with your life the exact same way, and that is exactly what happens now, there is so much anti-tackle, anti-brawl equipment available, that people just forgo brawling in that respect altogether. Your battleship should be worthless against a frigate that is underneath your guns, that is the point of the entire class, but this change the OP suggests doesn't even go that far, and you still don't get that.

Tell me what is worse, having a frigate underneath your guns that you can not hit with your main weapons but still have scram/web/neuts active on or, a kitey Garmur/Interceptor pointing you from 30-40k away that you can not interact with at all other than when he ninja dives you for a scram to stop your mjd. That is exactly what the meta is like right now. At least the brawler frigate has to come into range and during that window you have a chance to deal massive damage, and cripple it before it even gets into scram range. Current meta doesn't call for that though, you know why? Because it is hardly possible, and why do it when I can easy mode kite you? You know why the current meta is kite oriented? Because brawling harshly forces commitment. Kiting does not. Brawling is a near death trap against a larger target because scrams/webs/neuts/drones. Kiting doesn't have to deal with three of those things and only scarcely is bothered by the fourth.

When you are up against a larger ship, he basically has a triad of modules that very well can make impossible to enter commitment range, against him. Kiting deals with none of that, maybe if brawling wasn't such a terrible option for engaging a large majority of targets like that, the meta wouldn't be what it is today, but I guess you like having an Orthrus kite your battleship to death; it is more dignified right?


Well we now know you have never flown a battleship now.


that makes me wonder if making neuts have tracking elements might be a better way of reducing their effectiveness too encourage frigs being able too brawl under big guns..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#45 - 2015-10-11 16:19:41 UTC
It is very obvious that you have never tried engaging a triple rep hyperion in a vengeance assault frigate so you could tackle him for your fleet. I have, i managed to hold him for about 60 seconds til my tank ran out and died. He then proceeded to mjd away. So I refit to an interceptor and literally did the same thing and held him infinitely easily.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#46 - 2015-10-11 16:20:38 UTC
I am actually convinced that you are trolling now. No human being can literally be that ignorant. I am sorry, I actually can not take you seriously.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#47 - 2015-10-11 16:21:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Bring support.


So now I cant solo in the ships I enjoy and have enjoyed for the last decade?


perhaps think of it another way, why would small ships be able too use a super powerful tool?
maybe webs could be sized :-

small - 35%
medium - 45%
battleship - 55%

maybe webs could have higher fitting and cap consumption scaling with that strength - looks at officer webs massive pg requirement, along with falloff added, and range could be scaled too.


I actually suggested something like this before and was hackled about it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2015-10-11 16:22:01 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
It is very obvious that you have never tried engaging a triple rep hyperion in a vengeance assault frigate so you could tackle him for your fleet. I have, i managed to hold him for about 60 seconds til my tank ran out and died. He then proceeded to mjd away. So I refit to an interceptor and literally did the same thing and held him infinitely easily.


I fly a megathron, a ship with a built in tracking bonus and I can tell you, a frigate doing 350m/s at close range will not be hit using large turrets without a web.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2015-10-11 16:23:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


Bring support.


So now I cant solo in the ships I enjoy and have enjoyed for the last decade?


perhaps think of it another way, why would small ships be able too use a super powerful tool?
maybe webs could be sized :-

small - 35%
medium - 45%
battleship - 55%

maybe webs could have higher fitting and cap consumption scaling with that strength - looks at officer webs massive pg requirement, along with falloff added, and range could be scaled too.


Leads to other issues such as super fast larger ships out running frigates even if webbed.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#50 - 2015-10-11 16:23:38 UTC
Yea, duh, obviously. I know this. Please, are you six? Are you not understanding things? Can you read? Are you bothering to read the essay long responses I attempt to educate you on? No? Figures.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2015-10-11 16:26:11 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Yea, duh, obviously. I know this. Please, are you six? Are you not understanding things? Can you read? Are you bothering to read the essay long responses I attempt to educate you on? No? Figures.


I am, hence why I am calling you out on your damaging nerfs.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#52 - 2015-10-11 16:27:10 UTC
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2015-10-11 16:35:14 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?


I have FC'd harpy fleets while flying a megathron. I literally have owned battleships with more combat experience than you have.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#54 - 2015-10-11 16:35:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Yea, duh, obviously. I know this. Please, are you six? Are you not understanding things? Can you read? Are you bothering to read the essay long responses I attempt to educate you on? No? Figures.


I am, hence why I am calling you out on your damaging nerfs.


No, no. You are not. I honestly don't believe you actually ever flown a solo battleship. I don't believe you have any idea of what you are talking about any more. You may call that damaging because it hurts that play style, but it seriously improves the amount of viable play styles available in the game. Period. There are a diverse series of fleet engagements and situations that people are averted from engaging in because of how commitment ranges work.

I am in exodussss, these sort of situations are my lifeeee. Why can't you understand that I am trying to save you from the cancer that is my alliance. Your Megathron is much more vulnerable to kitey fleets than it is brawling frigates. Your argument doesn't make any sense, you are giving me a headache.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#55 - 2015-10-11 16:44:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?


I have FC'd harpy fleets while flying a megathron. I literally have owned battleships with more combat experience than you have.


FCing 100km Rail Harpy Fleets is exactly what I am talking about. That doctrine is 1000 times more dangerous and cancerous.

I have way more experience than you do, by a long shot.

I literally fly 6 man fleets against hordes of upclassed, linked, fleets regularly. Not to mention my participation in enough alliance tournament skirmishing to be totally aware of how both symmetrical and asymmetrical combat functions.

I have over 1000 solo kills and I have literally engaged every non-super ship class in game at least once. An afternoons worth of flying with me is worth weeks of your "experience".
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2015-10-11 16:48:49 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?


I have FC'd harpy fleets while flying a megathron. I literally have owned battleships with more combat experience than you have.


FCing 100km Rail Harpy Fleets is exactly what I am talking about. That doctrine is 1000 times more dangerous and cancerous.

I have way more experience than you do, by a long shot.

I literally fly 6 man fleets against hordes of upclassed, linked, fleets regularly. Not to mention my participation in enough alliance tournament skirmishing to be totally aware of how both symmetrical and asymmetrical combat functions.

I have over 1000 solo kills and I have literally engaged every non-super ship class in game at least once. An afternoons worth of flying with me is worth weeks of your "experience".


You are seriously going to try to flap your e-peen at me?
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#57 - 2015-10-11 16:50:51 UTC
You're right. I am too angry. I need to stop.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2015-10-11 16:59:14 UTC
I'm not here trying to troll you, I seriously have more experience than you do with flying battleships simply because I have flown them almost exclusively for six years in situations that beggar belief. I have flown them from one end of eve to the other, from solo to 4000 man fleet brawls in every large war in the last six years. I am likely the most experienced megathron pilot you are going to meet, believe me when I say this nerf will harm battleship pilots.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#59 - 2015-10-11 17:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
I can't support this idea in defence of the already defenseless battleships that are fighting smaller ships. Battleships does already have hard enough times to have a chance against smaller targets today.

I'm on the same side here as batlec where i have years in experience in flying a Megathron and Vindicator. The Vindicator had it pretty easy with the 99% web bonus it had some years ago. Just taking it from 99% to 90% was a HUUUUUUUGE difference when the webs got nerfed some years ago.

And the other battleships that doesn't have a tracking bonus already have it extremely hard to hit cruisers and smaller ships with a 60% web now. They at least have a slightly chance of winning against smaller ships as it is now. Which i believe should be the case.

With your idea, it's pretty much game over the second you see a frig in your battleship on a low sec gate or whatever. Therefor i can't support it.

Webs are fine as they are now. And yes, i'm telling you this with many years of experience. I have been playing EVE Online since early 2004. And i have been flying battleships since late 2005.

EDIT: Your idea that i have to bring more peoples to take down a cruiser in a battleship is stupid to say it that way. It should he much harder to take down a cruiser in a battleship (over how it is against in a battleship vs battleship fight) and not impossible as your idea are suggesting.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#60 - 2015-10-11 19:54:49 UTC
Web's need buffs, not nerfs.

The Tears Must Flow