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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#601 - 2015-10-01 12:36:33 UTC
5 mid shield tank, very low paper dps
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#602 - 2015-10-01 13:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Trinkets friend wrote:
First impressions:
Ferox: ridiculously ridonkadonk brawler, great dualprop MWD-MJD rail fleet boat, perfetto. *italian kissing motions*
Cylone: Thanks for the projection bonus, but still sucks.
Drake: Thanks, feels like the Old Drake
Cane; Kinda feels like the old Cane, but crappier. Arty is still a horrible bloaty weapon choice, terrible tracking. Not bad armour brawler.
Prophecy: Meh. Drone speed is good if you hate being kited by Garmurs.
Harby: Eh. Slooow.
Brutix: Thanks for the mobility, now every other brawler is toast. No one active tanks these anymore.
Myrm: Same-same.

Navy Drake: Honestly, you can buffer fit a Cyclone and get the same effect, so why bother.
Fleet Cane: Hellooo alphacanes. Pity you have to pay through the nose to get not much more of a ship. Welp.
Brutix navy: Same-same, still a decent gank hull-tank station camper's paradise boat
Harby navy: Same-same. Sloooow.

I think you can call this, basically, the Ferox Rebalance. it's more or less a missed opportunity to redo the lineup, I think. The tweaks aren't very substantial in most parts. I would have thought that spreading some EWAR bonuses through half the non-navy lineup would have done something better. You know, neut bonus on Prophecy, damp bonus on Myrm, TP's on Cyclone (with more mids!), etc. I dunno. Something more than "oh, we better give these slow punching bags some projection buffs, that's going to save them".

Nope.

The only significant change is the Ferox, and that came about due to slot layout changes. That's an interesting lesson to take away, isn't it, Fozzie?

Actually, the Ferox win here is also related to getting a ship bonus that enhances the class bonus, while no other ship in class does. Also, on the Navy Drake I think you miss the stupidly above par agility and tank on it in comparison to the other navy BCs. The dps on missile boats is not as important as on turret boats.

Otherwise excellent analysis of this below standard rebalance pass.

I have liked most rebalancing from Fozzie, Rise et al, but this was a real disappointment and poorly done.Sad

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#603 - 2015-10-01 20:04:14 UTC
I think Ferox deserve to have 10% damage/ skill lvl as most others BC have.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#604 - 2015-10-01 20:39:09 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
I think Ferox deserve to have 10% damage/ skill lvl as most others BC have.


Yes, let the 55m BC obsolete the 300m CS (Vulture) even more.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#605 - 2015-10-01 20:46:48 UTC
Cyclone could do with a bit of a bigger bay, if you're expecting us to carry 4-12 ammo types AND cap charges.

OR....balance the cap charges sizing a little.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#606 - 2015-10-01 20:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Trinkets friend wrote:
First impressions:
Ferox: ridiculously ridonkadonk brawler, great dualprop MWD-MJD rail fleet boat, perfetto. *italian kissing motions*
Cylone: Thanks for the projection bonus, but still sucks.
Drake: Thanks, feels like the Old Drake
Cane; Kinda feels like the old Cane, but crappier. Arty is still a horrible bloaty weapon choice, terrible tracking. Not bad armour brawler.
Prophecy: Meh. Drone speed is good if you hate being kited by Garmurs.
Harby: Eh. Slooow.
Brutix: Thanks for the mobility, now every other brawler is toast. No one active tanks these anymore.
Myrm: Same-same.

Navy Drake: Honestly, you can buffer fit a Cyclone and get the same effect, so why bother.
Fleet Cane: Hellooo alphacanes. Pity you have to pay through the nose to get not much more of a ship. Welp.
Brutix navy: Same-same, still a decent gank hull-tank station camper's paradise boat
Harby navy: Same-same. Sloooow.

I think you can call this, basically, the Ferox Rebalance. it's more or less a missed opportunity to redo the lineup, I think. The tweaks aren't very substantial in most parts. I would have thought that spreading some EWAR bonuses through half the non-navy lineup would have done something better. You know, neut bonus on Prophecy, damp bonus on Myrm, TP's on Cyclone (with more mids!), etc. I dunno. Something more than "oh, we better give these slow punching bags some projection buffs, that's going to save them".

Nope.

The only significant change is the Ferox, and that came about due to slot layout changes. That's an interesting lesson to take away, isn't it, Fozzie?


Some of your points I agree with, others are hidden behind smug/snark that are quite off base.

Ferox: Yep, it seems more versatile
Prophecy: Widely used, not much wrong with it before the patch tbh, drone speed and some mass changes is all gravy
Myrm: Again widely used, didnt need an overhaul, drone speed buffs are fine
Drake: Agreed
Cane: Got some tweaks and a bit more fitting, yes arty is a pain to fit, it seems CCP has no intention of changing this. However, looking at what can be done with a good pilot with a DCU only arty cane. You will realize having loads of tank and 3.5k vollies could be bad.
Brutix: Should probably speak for yourself, i still see loads of ppl use dual rep brutix, or a hybrid hull/rep tank (like comet).
Harb: Got faster and more agile plus range, beams can reach out to 50km with 450dps no problem
Cyclone: Got faster and more range, i tend to agree it feels lacking, but ive seen more competent pilots utilize that speed effectively. That being said, its fitting feels too restrictive. Its either XLASB+Invuln or DG XLSB+CB+Links. Not much variety.

Navy cane: poorboi need not apply. Honestly though, prices will settle down and be equivalent to a muninn, which the fleet cane outperforms in every way. Not to mention is loads of fun to fly as nano arty fit.
Navy drake: Please show me this cyclone fit that has better buffer fit than navy drake, and can recieve reps better. Also explo radius bonus, where is it on the cyclone?
Navy brutix: yep
Navy harb: mostly

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#607 - 2015-10-01 21:33:28 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
First impressions:
Ferox: ridiculously ridonkadonk brawler, great dualprop MWD-MJD rail fleet boat, perfetto. *italian kissing motions*
Cylone: Thanks for the projection bonus, but still sucks.
Drake: Thanks, feels like the Old Drake
Cane; Kinda feels like the old Cane, but crappier. Arty is still a horrible bloaty weapon choice, terrible tracking. Not bad armour brawler.
Prophecy: Meh. Drone speed is good if you hate being kited by Garmurs.
Harby: Eh. Slooow.
Brutix: Thanks for the mobility, now every other brawler is toast. No one active tanks these anymore.
Myrm: Same-same.

Navy Drake: Honestly, you can buffer fit a Cyclone and get the same effect, so why bother.
Fleet Cane: Hellooo alphacanes. Pity you have to pay through the nose to get not much more of a ship. Welp.
Brutix navy: Same-same, still a decent gank hull-tank station camper's paradise boat
Harby navy: Same-same. Sloooow.

I think you can call this, basically, the Ferox Rebalance. it's more or less a missed opportunity to redo the lineup, I think. The tweaks aren't very substantial in most parts. I would have thought that spreading some EWAR bonuses through half the non-navy lineup would have done something better. You know, neut bonus on Prophecy, damp bonus on Myrm, TP's on Cyclone (with more mids!), etc. I dunno. Something more than "oh, we better give these slow punching bags some projection buffs, that's going to save them".

Nope.

The only significant change is the Ferox, and that came about due to slot layout changes. That's an interesting lesson to take away, isn't it, Fozzie?

Actually, the Ferox win here is also related to getting a ship bonus that enhances the class bonus, while no other ship in class does. Also, on the Navy Drake I think you miss the stupidly above par agility and tank on it in comparison to the other navy BCs. The dps on missile boats is not as important as on turret boats.

Otherwise excellent analysis of this below standard rebalance pass.

I have liked most rebalancing from Fozzie, Rise et al, but this was a real disappointment and poorly done.Sad


"Also, on the Navy Drake I think you miss the stupidly above par agility and tank on it in comparison to the other navy BCs" - hyperbole.

The Navy Brutix has a 200k EHP hulltank with full tackle, cap booster, neut and a smaller sig radius. Can't even get close to that with a pvp fit Navy Drake with tackle. Navy Drake is the most agile but we're talking about ~1 second align time, hardly classes it as "stupidly" above par and it pays for these strengths with lower DPS and no utility high.

Theoretically the tank on the Navy Drake is very good if you don't have to fill your mids with tackle and application mods, but it's unlikely to make it as mainline dps in a fleet doctrine. The t1 Drake has nearly as much tank and higher dps for a fraction of the cost but it's not being used extensively because of delayed dps and the need for dedicated tackle/ewar.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#608 - 2015-10-01 23:12:42 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.


You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible.

I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.



sac has 45km range with HAM jav's

Faction, not T2
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#609 - 2015-10-01 23:16:18 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?

(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..)


When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff.

I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul.


Aren't similar features already included in Sleipnir? Which isn't much more expensive but is tankier as well. I want some difference in my ships :)


Not really. Sleip is 300m and has loads of training time behind it to sit in one. Not to mention needing CS5 to get the max alpha. Sleip also doesnt have the 50% tracking bonus which is extremely useful. For reference, on the fleet cane, with a metastasis rig, TE and sabot/quake you are approaching scorch tracking but with 3k vollies. Add a drop booster and you're there. Fleet cane is also faster/agile than sleip now, making it a better kiter.

Sleip is a better brawler and is good with arty, but nowhere as easy to sit in, and squeezing arty, XLASB, neuts and prop can be challenging. HFI will be a fun easy to fly, relatively cheap arty ship.

The tracking bonus alone is enough of a difference for me (highest tracking BC to boot). Plus the hybrid optimal/falloff bonus which will make sabot/depleted uranium very nice to use. Unlike the sleip which is strictly falloff bonused.


Missiles still take longer to train.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#610 - 2015-10-01 23:19:14 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.


I'm not sure how to make this more clearcut.

This is bad.

Stop doing this.

Please.


I think if this were to happen, Caldari missile ships would end up outclassing other missile ships outright unless they were then rebalanced to be more like their competitors damage wise.

So instead, the Amarr Missile ships outclass other missile ships and fit perfectly in the common armor doctrine.
Isn't amarr's 2nd weapon system drones?
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#611 - 2015-10-01 23:22:47 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
First impression not good.
Drake and Cane replaced by Navy Drake and Fleet Cane. basicly that all.
Ships with drone max. velocity - well, bad english here
as class BC are still sucks. especially against HAC and navy cruisers
fix Cyclone, please

proposal:
may be it will be good to mess CBC and ABC.
example:
Harbinger - 5H/4M/6L (4 large turrets) and role bonus - 50% tracking

"No ABC was touched inappropriately in this patch."
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#612 - 2015-10-01 23:28:58 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Rekt Zero wrote:
Pretty sure drake is popular because of the tank, the dps is laughable at best.


Not the ships fault you don't know how to use it effectively.

In what I quoted, it was mentioned they needed more dps, I think the dps is fine on the BC's, most of them are either on par with a HAC, or quite a bit higher (depending on fit).

Fleet cane has more dps with artillery than Muninn, and more dps with a/c's than vagabond. Brutix does more dps than deimos, drake does similar dps of a cerb, but can sport a better tank. So seems to be working as intended.

Yea, there is sig/speed and other things to consider, but its not like BC's are worthless, you'll just need to work harder for the kill. Even with MWD sig reduction, proper piloting and maintaining transversal will still allow you to hit a HAC just fine. I've yet to see a HAC that can fit an MJD.

I mention something similar before.. maybe in a different thread.

I have opinions on drake fits I will not be sharing in here to protect what may be a beastly cruiser killer.

MMJD's don't fit on a hac. hands down.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#613 - 2015-10-02 09:06:05 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
I think Ferox deserve to have 10% damage/ skill lvl as most others BC have.


Yes, let the 55m BC obsolete the 300m CS (Vulture) even more.


Vulture have t2 resists, more EHP, better range bonus. If you think that it is not enough, then this is discussion about vulture's boost.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#614 - 2015-10-02 13:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Feodor Romanov wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
I think Ferox deserve to have 10% damage/ skill lvl as most others BC have.


Yes, let the 55m BC obsolete the 300m CS (Vulture) even more.


Vulture have t2 resists, more EHP, better range bonus. If you think that it is not enough, then this is discussion about vulture's boost.


Ferox = 6 turrets, Vulture = 5 turrets. If you give the ferox a 10% dmg bonus, it will have more dps than a t2 CS with very similar range.

Higher EHP/Resists is irrelevant when being used as a throw away sniper. Rail corm comes to mind here. I've already been running across Ferox's in lowsec that are fit with MJD+MWD and are setup purely for sniping. Setup to shoot 300+ dps out to about 160km. The vulture with the same fit will shoot out to `190km with identical damage as a ferox currently. That isn't much difference in range, and again EHP/resists are largely irrelevant when you aren't going to be hit by any conventional means. Short of a dedicated prober to get a warp-in.

Caldari Hybrid ships always favor range over damage, gallente ships favor damage/tracking over range, this isn't new. The new ferox is quite strong, lets not go overboard with it.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#615 - 2015-10-02 19:19:58 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.


I'm not sure how to make this more clearcut.

This is bad.

Stop doing this.

Please.


I think if this were to happen, Caldari missile ships would end up outclassing other missile ships outright unless they were then rebalanced to be more like their competitors damage wise.

So instead, the Amarr Missile ships outclass other missile ships and fit perfectly in the common armor doctrine.
Isn't amarr's 2nd weapon system drones?


Before tiericide amarr ships were mostly lasers with a few T2 Khanid ships being missiles. They decided during diericide that amarr was lasers and drones, but they never changed the T2 missile ships, so now the amarr ship line is confused.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#616 - 2015-10-03 05:53:52 UTC
I did not follow this thread since my first posting ...just an add on would like to see fleet hurricane get same drone space as every other hull.

It already lost gun dps and not be able to have spare light or troll drones like everyone else means it will not be able to use 5 med drones to compensate for lost dps!

Can anyone upstairs explain why is this reasonable idea and why on just hurry hull?

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#617 - 2015-10-03 07:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Poranius Fisc wrote:
So instead, the Amarr Missile ships outclass other missile ships and fit perfectly in the common armor doctrine.
Isn't amarr's 2nd weapon system drones?

Amarr missile ships do not outclass any other missile ship at long range. You cannot use a Sacrilege or Damnation or Malediction with long range missiles (as their damage with these and the lack of kity-ness hampers them a lot) unlike all the other missile ships. The only thing Amarr missile ships are good at are HAM/Rockets in case of Sacri/Malediction and a whore gun on the Damnation. And even at short range, the armor ships have their problems with keeping up or getting in effective range (ie. web range) in the first place.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#618 - 2015-10-04 00:26:14 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
I did not follow this thread since my first posting ...just an add on would like to see fleet hurricane get same drone space as every other hull.

It already lost gun dps and not be able to have spare light or troll drones like everyone else means it will not be able to use 5 med drones to compensate for lost dps!

Can anyone upstairs explain why is this reasonable idea and why on just hurry hull?


Hint: Use artillery

There is a slight dps loss, but you're still getting a double damage bonus (10%, instead of 5%). With artillery, you get huge vollies, more than what the old cane stats could, albeit at the cost of RoF. Tbh though, that slightly slower RoF is made up in the sheer damage. I was alpha'ing through an LSE+XLASB cruiser and making them bleed armor/structure on each shot.

In terms of drones, old cane had 25m3 of drone, now it has 50m3. Its a buff no matter how you look at. No one is forcing you to use mediums. You can still have your light drone and "troll" drones. If you're smart, you fit an MJD for brawler fits and just stick with mediums when you tackle something, MJD from anything that kites you which mediums can't catch.

The cyclone has the same drone bay, and does less dps than the cane. So its comparable to other minmatar ships.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#619 - 2015-10-04 01:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Fourteen Maken wrote:
"Also, on the Navy Drake I think you miss the stupidly above par agility and tank on it in comparison to the other navy BCs" - hyperbole.

The Navy Brutix has a 200k EHP hulltank with full tackle, cap booster, neut and a smaller sig radius. Can't even get close to that with a pvp fit Navy Drake with tackle. Navy Drake is the most agile but we're talking about ~1 second align time, hardly classes it as "stupidly" above par and it pays for these strengths with lower DPS and no utility high.

Theoretically the tank on the Navy Drake is very good if you don't have to fill your mids with tackle and application mods, but it's unlikely to make it as mainline dps in a fleet doctrine. The t1 Drake has nearly as much tank and higher dps for a fraction of the cost but it's not being used extensively because of delayed dps and the need for dedicated tackle/ewar.

Just because you say it is doesn't make it so. That agility does a lot to evade those hulltanked Brutixes you worry about.

BCs are not solo ships. If these were frigs I would worry. They are not though. They are still relatively lumbering lumps that the bulk of the playerbase will not ride through lowsec or null looking for the elusive solo fight in.

It is the fleet comps that we have to be careful of. There will not be fleets of hulltanked Brutixes for the obvious reason of no logi and no spider because remote hull tank modules blow chunks. There may be fleets of perma mwd Drakes and yes Navy Drakes. Hell people run around in tech3 and command ship fleets. Navy Drakes would be nbd.

And just about every fleet comp needs dedicated tackle and ewar. BCs will be no different.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#620 - 2015-10-04 02:59:52 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Before tiericide amarr ships were mostly lasers with a few T2 Khanid ships being missiles. They decided during diericide that amarr was lasers and drones, but they never changed the T2 missile ships, so now the amarr ship line is confused.

Now that you mention it, it is funny the different racial combos. Too bad no projectiles on anyone but minmatar :(