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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#401 - 2015-09-16 11:55:05 UTC
X4me1eoH wrote:
Need more lockrange for all bc, for use mjd

If they get more lock range they'll be in battleship territory. They don't need more lock range and they can already use the MJD offensively. Being able to maintain lock at above 100km range alongside having the ability to fit a MJD is incredibly powerful with even many of the battleships needing a fitting mod to do this. If you want that kind of power then sacrifice a mid and fit a sensor booster.
Rammel Kas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#402 - 2015-09-16 12:48:46 UTC
Find I have to agree with a few of the others on targeting range. If it's a bit closer to the more common weapons projection you would use it does take a lot of the frustrations out of the box game play, make it easier for a new player to pick up. And hopefully make alternatives for the mid slots a bit more compelling.
Delarian Rox
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#403 - 2015-09-16 14:29:06 UTC
X4me1eoH wrote:
Need more lockrange for all bc, for use mjd

Every BC with 60+ base lock range now capable to MJD offensively. It just require good skills and a rig slot as a tradeoff. Previously it was a mid slot tradeoff. Now only Prophecy, Cyclone and Myrmidon can't trade a rigslot for offensive MJD without links. And i think it's fine.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#404 - 2015-09-16 14:31:07 UTC
Great. BC are getting rebalanced again. CCP we are still waiting for T3, Capital and Black Ops...
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#405 - 2015-09-16 15:25:00 UTC
It's not often that I get to say this but I am optimistic about these changes. Though I do find it amusing that the metrics presented were only comparisons between ships of the same class when the changes are suppose to make them more appealing to use vs other classes. ie make Eve less cruiser and T3 online.

I think these changes will help with that but I can't phantom by how much but it would be nice to see some before and after numbers. Any how if the Battleship changes look this good I may just have to become more active again..
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#406 - 2015-09-16 17:42:56 UTC
One thing i forgot to mention.

Thanks CCP for listening to player feedback, from my thread and everyone who contributed. Obviously these are not the exact changes I mentioned, but the 25/25 split is great and keeps them flexible, especially minmatar. The fleet cane is now very much different from its t1 variant, and im excited to see how this will change things. Guess i wont be the only one flying kiting arty canes anymore.

Not to mention my Battleships i solo roam with, on occasion, will have more targets to choose from. The ship food chain wont feel quite so broken anymore.

To those that claim CCP doesnt listen, id say this is pretty clear that they do.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#407 - 2015-09-16 18:28:03 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
X4me1eoH wrote:
Need more lockrange for all bc, for use mjd

If they get more lock range they'll be in battleship territory. They don't need more lock range and they can already use the MJD offensively. Being able to maintain lock at above 100km range alongside having the ability to fit a MJD is incredibly powerful with even many of the battleships needing a fitting mod to do this. If you want that kind of power then sacrifice a mid and fit a sensor booster.

The +lockrange bonus to active MJDs is clearly the solution for this.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#408 - 2015-09-16 18:31:09 UTC
Why after 10 years + we are still re-re-inventing the same old ships over and over again, is beyond me...

But don't worry, while we waste our time with this, we'll make the same ship look different for a nominal fee. That will distract you long enough for us to reconsider what we've done today.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right?


Yes. And it seems sub caps online is the only ship class that enjoys any of those facets...

However, what my esteemed colleague was trying to emphasis in his own way, was that this new direction of pro-sub caps in Eve online has gimped the food chain the moment you go beyond battleship sized hulls. Sub caps are at a point where they enjoy more bonuses / perks (not to mention they are insanely cheap) compared to capitals and even super capitals (and lest not forget, they seem to be "more fun"). Capital and Super Capital hulls are in dire need of a mountain of love.... more hull options and a significant boost in teeth that can be applied to sub caps... after all, a risk free eve is bad. And right now, taking sub caps up against carriers, dreads, supers and titans seems to be as risk free as its going to get with this sesame street sov system and dumbass limitation on "force projection" called jump fatigue. Caps and supers need to become fun again... and being a giant "tackle me and apply F1 here" i-lose button is not fun. Sub cap pilots who beg to differ on these forums are free to logonski their titans while parking on a lowsec gate and notify the rest of us of their intentions so we can show you exactly how "much fun" it is.

But maybe if smaller ships did less damage to bigger targets like certain big ships do to little ones, and if the tackle modules in eve were different sizes that were not only limited to certain hull sized, but affected different sized hulls respectively, it'll be a step in the right direction to force sub cap pilots to bring more expensive toys to an expensive party.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can?


Yes it can. Its called kiting with logi.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can?


Yes it can. Its called a jump bridge.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your carrier fire a doomsday?


It used to be able to.... it was called drive by doomsdays.

CCP deleted that ability because rifter hobos cried about it killing their pvp and subsequently makes their ship classes less fun. ironic.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#409 - 2015-09-16 18:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: MR Spleen
I agree with Asuka

But will add the dps is less of an issue than the application of the dps as not being able to apply the dps to small targets from larger ships is the most frustrating part of Eve.

This probably why most of the older players from 2003-2006 no longer play!

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#410 - 2015-09-16 19:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Asuka Solo wrote:


Yes. And it seems sub caps online is the only ship class that enjoys any of those facets...

However, what my esteemed colleague was trying to emphasis in his own way, was that this new direction of pro-sub caps in Eve online has gimped the food chain the moment you go beyond battleship sized hulls. Sub caps are at a point where they enjoy more bonuses / perks (not to mention they are insanely cheap) compared to capitals and even super capitals (and lest not forget, they seem to be "more fun"). Capital and Super Capital hulls are in dire need of a mountain of love.... more hull options and a significant boost in teeth that can be applied to sub caps... after all, a risk free eve is bad. And right now, taking sub caps up against carriers, dreads, supers and titans seems to be as risk free as its going to get with this sesame street sov system and dumbass limitation on "force projection" called jump fatigue. Caps and supers need to become fun again... and being a giant "tackle me and apply F1 here" i-lose button is not fun. Sub cap pilots who beg to differ on these forums are free to logonski their titans while parking on a lowsec gate and notify the rest of us of their intentions so we can show you exactly how "much fun" it is.

But maybe if smaller ships did less damage to bigger targets like certain big ships do to little ones, and if the tackle modules in eve were different sizes that were not only limited to certain hull sized, but affected different sized hulls respectively, it'll be a step in the right direction to force sub cap pilots to bring more expensive toys to an expensive party.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can?


Yes it can. Its called kiting with logi.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can?


Yes it can. Its called a jump bridge.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your carrier fire a doomsday?


It used to be able to.... it was called drive by doomsdays.

CCP deleted that ability because rifter hobos cried about it killing their pvp and subsequently makes their ship classes less fun. ironic.


Please stop whining about capitals. You seem to have forgotten that a lil over a year ago capitals were jumping across the map in minutes, and dropping on frigates for lulz. Slowcats had the tank of a carrier and the application of a subcap with sentries(not to mention huge repping power). Before that we had max tracking titans and dreads that would literally volley a BS off grid. As you pointed out there was also the drive by DD. How many carriers are in operation now? Can you imagine a fight of nothing but DDs? As thats what would happen. If you couldnt see how horribly broken this was, thats your problem.

Im happy about the nerfs caps have recieved as its reigned them in. The new sov is whats pushed them into irrelevence, which will be addressed soon. Capitals are supposed to require sub cap support, that is intended and why they require support ships to kill smaller ships. Otherwise we would have nothing but caps roaming round and it would be boring as hell.

CCP has stated in the CSM minutes that cap rebalances will be mentioned in EVE:Vegas at the end of October. So dry up those cap tears, as changes are coming.

As to your other points.

Your corpmate said "a catalyst", not "a catalyst with a logi wing". The mega goes the same way. Who do you think will win in a fight of 25 megas vs 25 catalysts, both with logi chains?

A jump bridge is a structure that is put down when you own sov. A mega on its own cannot jump across systems.. didnt think i needed to break this down for you.

What carriers used to do is in no way relevant to what is being discussed, dont muddy the waters..

BCs were rebalanced as they had no role to speak of except glorified MJD brawlers. T1/T2 cruisers got faster and rebalanced, BCs were nerfed. Hence why they are rebalancing BCs to be useful and fill the role of anti-cruiser.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#411 - 2015-09-16 20:42:13 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


Yes. And it seems sub caps online is the only ship class that enjoys any of those facets...

However, what my esteemed colleague was trying to emphasis in his own way, was that this new direction of pro-sub caps in Eve online has gimped the food chain the moment you go beyond battleship sized hulls. Sub caps are at a point where they enjoy more bonuses / perks (not to mention they are insanely cheap) compared to capitals and even super capitals (and lest not forget, they seem to be "more fun"). Capital and Super Capital hulls are in dire need of a mountain of love.... more hull options and a significant boost in teeth that can be applied to sub caps... after all, a risk free eve is bad. And right now, taking sub caps up against carriers, dreads, supers and titans seems to be as risk free as its going to get with this sesame street sov system and dumbass limitation on "force projection" called jump fatigue. Caps and supers need to become fun again... and being a giant "tackle me and apply F1 here" i-lose button is not fun. Sub cap pilots who beg to differ on these forums are free to logonski their titans while parking on a lowsec gate and notify the rest of us of their intentions so we can show you exactly how "much fun" it is.

But maybe if smaller ships did less damage to bigger targets like certain big ships do to little ones, and if the tackle modules in eve were different sizes that were not only limited to certain hull sized, but affected different sized hulls respectively, it'll be a step in the right direction to force sub cap pilots to bring more expensive toys to an expensive party.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can?


Yes it can. Its called kiting with logi.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can?


Yes it can. Its called a jump bridge.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can your carrier fire a doomsday?


It used to be able to.... it was called drive by doomsdays.

CCP deleted that ability because rifter hobos cried about it killing their pvp and subsequently makes their ship classes less fun. ironic.


Please stop whining about capitals. You seem to have forgotten that a lil over a year ago capitals were jumping across the map in minutes, and dropping on frigates for lulz. Slowcats had the tank of a carrier and the application of a subcap with sentries(not to mention huge repping power). Before that we had max tracking titans and dreads that would literally volley a BS off grid. As you pointed out there was also the drive by DD. How many carriers are in operation now? Can you imagine a fight of nothing but DDs? As thats what would happen. If you couldnt see how horribly broken this was, thats your problem.

Im happy about the nerfs caps have recieved as its reigned them in. The new sov is whats pushed them into irrelevence, which will be addressed soon. Capitals are supposed to require sub cap support, that is intended and why they require support ships to kill smaller ships. Otherwise we would have nothing but caps roaming round and it would be boring as hell.

CCP has stated in the CSM minutes that cap rebalances will be mentioned in EVE:Vegas at the end of October. So dry up those cap tears, as changes are coming.

As to your other points.

Your corpmate said "a catalyst", not "a catalyst with a logi wing". The mega goes the same way. Who do you think will win in a fight of 25 megas vs 25 catalysts, both with logi chains?

A jump bridge is a structure that is put down when you own sov. A mega on its own cannot jump across systems.. didnt think i needed to break this down for you.

What carriers used to do is in no way relevant to what is being discussed, dont muddy the waters..

BCs were rebalanced as they had no role to speak of except glorified MJD brawlers. T1/T2 cruisers got faster and rebalanced, BCs were nerfed. Hence why they are rebalancing BCs to be useful and fill the role of anti-cruiser.


Clearly you misundertood my original point but thats ok your only a 2011 pilot my point was in terms of isk fielded 25 catalyst's will desimate a single mega and no catalyst gang is going to warp in at range and burn straight at a mega yet the cost is pretty much identical.

As for large ships not being able to track smaller ships why not we had those issues in 2004-2008ish you just had to play smarter but if your not intelligent enough to figure out how to deal with that issue why should those who had learnt how to deal with that be punished, aoe doomsdays were a great option and meant you had to use a well tanked HIC to hold the target and well fitted BS's and others too kill it.

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#412 - 2015-09-16 21:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Please stop whining about capitals. You seem to have forgotten that a lil over a year ago capitals were jumping across the map in minutes, and dropping on frigates for lulz. Slowcats had the tank of a carrier and the application of a subcap with sentries(not to mention huge repping power). Before that we had max tracking titans and dreads that would literally volley a BS off grid. As you pointed out there was also the drive by DD. How many carriers are in operation now? Can you imagine a fight of nothing but DDs? As thats what would happen. If you couldnt see how horribly broken this was, thats your problem.

Im happy about the nerfs caps have recieved as its reigned them in. The new sov is whats pushed them into irrelevence, which will be addressed soon. Capitals are supposed to require sub cap support, that is intended and why they require support ships to kill smaller ships. Otherwise we would have nothing but caps roaming round and it would be boring as hell.


Its not my fault if you can't see how fun that used to be. Eve is supposed to be a cold heartless game. Funny how hot dropping on frigates is a war crime in a game that promotes war crime behavior.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

A jump bridge is a structure that is put down when you own sov. A mega on its own cannot jump across systems.. didnt think i needed to break this down for you.


Same function as a jump portal generator... which is fitted to Titans and happens to be Sov independent... didn't think I needed to break this down for you.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

What carriers used to do is in no way relevant to what is being discussed, dont muddy the waters..


Ask stupid questions... get stupid answers.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#413 - 2015-09-16 21:49:36 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Great. BC are getting rebalanced again. CCP we are still waiting for T3, Capital and Black Ops...


They need to be looked at too, but this makes the biggest impact for the most players.
Roti Rotineque
Per mortem ad Astra
#414 - 2015-09-16 21:56:40 UTC
Ok, ty CCP. Now fix the skill thingy please. I have to train 102731923 days of leadership just to fly an absol? Are you serious. This is shi... not good. Fix it. Fix it now. CCPlleeeeease.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2015-09-16 22:18:13 UTC
Roti Rotineque wrote:
Ok, ty CCP. Now fix the skill thingy please. I have to train 102731923 days of leadership just to fly an absol? Are you serious. This is shi... not good. Fix it. Fix it now. CCPlleeeeease.

100 days, get over it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#416 - 2015-09-17 01:19:03 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I do have a slight reservation on the navy drake. It still has no High's for links or nos/neut. It is bonused for links but cant fit them without sacrificing dps, something all the other BCs dont have to consider. I dont mind the navy drake not having a tank bonus, as to be honest having good application and range can kill things quickly before harming you. Plus MMJD. So kiters are a non issue.

Would changing it to something like this be a possibility?

Navy Drake
5% RoF per level
5% explosion radius per lvl

25% bonus to missile velocity

Drop a launcher, frees up fitting and now you can add neut/nos or links as needed without sacrificing dps.


The Navy Drake was a square peg before because nobody outside pve had much use for a pricey drake with worse dps/tank, no neut, and nothing to offer but an extreme range bonus on weapons that do delayed dps.

Now it has medium drones the lower dps is less of an issue, the tank bonus with navy stats means it has an even better tank than the t1 drake, a full rack of unbonused launchers lets people play around with RLML set ups, the application bonus sets it apart when using HML, or rage HAM's ... so the new Navy Drake has a lot of potential roles because the tank bonus compliments all set ups especially PVE which is the bread and butter of Drakes now. A neut/nos is only useful for brawling and no use at all in PVE.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#417 - 2015-09-17 03:50:35 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I do have a slight reservation on the navy drake. It still has no High's for links or nos/neut. It is bonused for links but cant fit them without sacrificing dps, something all the other BCs dont have to consider. I dont mind the navy drake not having a tank bonus, as to be honest having good application and range can kill things quickly before harming you. Plus MMJD. So kiters are a non issue.

Would changing it to something like this be a possibility?

Navy Drake
5% RoF per level
5% explosion radius per lvl

25% bonus to missile velocity

Drop a launcher, frees up fitting and now you can add neut/nos or links as needed without sacrificing dps.


The Navy Drake was a square peg before because nobody outside pve had much use for a pricey drake with worse dps/tank, no neut, and nothing to offer but an extreme range bonus on weapons that do delayed dps.

Now it has medium drones the lower dps is less of an issue, the tank bonus with navy stats means it has an even better tank than the t1 drake, a full rack of unbonused launchers lets people play around with RLML set ups, the application bonus sets it apart when using HML, or rage HAM's ... so the new Navy Drake has a lot of potential roles because the tank bonus compliments all set ups especially PVE which is the bread and butter of Drakes now. A neut/nos is only useful for brawling and no use at all in PVE.


Good luck killing any active tanked t3d or 10mn t3d (or both) without a neut.

There's a reason I prefer the T1 drake over the navy one, and its because of the neut. Take for instance, this perfectly balanced svipul.

[Svipul, 10mn Svipul]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
[empty high slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II

Without links and only using bluepill it has a cap stable 267dps tank (before heat). Using a navy drake with only a scram/web, you are applying 111dps out of your 475dps. Add another 90dps from drones and your at 201dps. Drones will die, and then you'll be left with 111dps.

Using dual webs on the navy drake, you can hit for around 230dps before drones. The svipul can OH to 350dps to tank your missiles and drones, until he pops all your drones (which will happen quickly). From there on, he can still tank your applied dps with no problem. 10mn dual rep fessor the same way, but even worse since it has a smaller sig.

Anyway, my point is, you hit them with a medium neut, and get that AB to turn off, even for just 5-6 seconds, you will apply 300+dps easy, and with the fits I use, max damage. Get yourself an easy kill. Now, this didn't even touch on a linked svipul, as it gets even worse from there. But even with links, there is no link that gives you cap, and i've killed plenty of linked fessors and svipuls.

Now, you do bring up a good point with RLML, but your not using either velocity or application bonus. Why not just buy a raven then, will probably be cheaper, and have a better tank.

The last thing I would mention is the fact the navy drake gets a link bonus, but has to sacrifice dps to fit it. No other BC has to make this sacrifice. If you bonus the ship for the role, it should be able to do the role without sacrificing something in return. I know this is a minor thing as most people won't be using links on it, but why handicap it in the first place?


Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#418 - 2015-09-17 05:46:29 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Good luck killing any active tanked t3d or 10mn t3d (or both) without a neut.

There's a reason I prefer the T1 drake over the navy one, and its because of the neut. Take for instance, this perfectly balanced svipul.




You could use RLML it should kill that before reload.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#419 - 2015-09-17 06:07:06 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Good luck killing any active tanked t3d or 10mn t3d (or both) without a neut.

There's a reason I prefer the T1 drake over the navy one, and its because of the neut. Take for instance, this perfectly balanced svipul.




You could use RLML it should kill that before reload.


Looks like RLML navy drake could kill the fessor and non linked svipul. Linked svipuls in LS are pretty common though. You could overwhelm them quick enough though where it might work. Unless he swaps bluepill for x-instinct to sig tank better. Suppose thats splitting hairs though.

Still has to lose dps to fit links, which it has a bonus for. And i'd hate to see the navy drake's best fitting made for RLML instead of the other medium weapon systems its actually bonused for.

The tank bonus also feels out of place compared to the other navy BC's. But i suppose it could possibly make a decent fleet ship with heavy missiles.

Regardless, its getting a buff so its all good. Arty fleet cane makes up for my minor disappointment with navy drake.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#420 - 2015-09-17 06:53:15 UTC
Roti Rotineque wrote:
Ok, ty CCP. Now fix the skill thingy please. I have to train 102731923 days of leadership just to fly an absol? Are you serious. This is shi... not good. Fix it. Fix it now. CCPlleeeeease.



Nope, why should they. They'll just replace those skills with some other useless time sink skill so what's the difference. Just suck it up and train those skills if you want to undock in CSs. If anything you should request that CCP make them worth training for.