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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#381 - 2015-09-15 18:33:09 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Please increase the base targeting range on all BC below 60km, and make 60km the minimum base range. The Prophecy and Cyclone at 50km is too short and even the Myrmidon at 55km. Both drone boats can send their drones out faster, but can't even target far enough away to call it a projection bonus. The Cyclone deserves better than 50km base targeting range.



Yea would have to agree here.

Yaay!!!!
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#382 - 2015-09-15 20:32:53 UTC
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#383 - 2015-09-15 20:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#384 - 2015-09-15 21:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: MR Spleen
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?



Ok how long can your mega tank 25 catalyst doing a total of 12500 dps for? And how many catalysts does it take Code. to kill 1 frieghter?

Oh and another interesting point a titan firing at anything smaller than a battleship is pointless as guns don't track targets and they have no drone bay so no help there.

And yes I mentioned it in corp but theres only 4 of us in corp chat!

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2015-09-15 21:29:41 UTC
Forum CTA? Good gods the Imperium should just steamroll this thread to 1000 pages just to introduce you to an actual forum CTA.


10 vs 1 140k ehp brutix survives a minimum of 17.5 seconds.
A brutix can murder a standard gank catalyst in 5 seconds minimum.
Meaning 3 brutix pilots will murder your 10 man gang. Oh and this ignores all the other tricks CBCs can do that destroyers can't.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#386 - 2015-09-15 21:33:41 UTC
MR Spleen wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?



Ok how long can your mega tank 25 catalyst doing a total of 12500 dps for? And how many catalysts does it take Code. to kill 1 frieghter?

Oh and another interesting point a titan firing at anything smaller than a battleship is pointless as guns don't track targets and they have no drone bay so no help there.

And yes I mentioned it in corp but theres only 4 of us in corp chat!


Depends how the fight starts and how competent you are as a pilot. Ive tanked a 14 man gang with 3 catalysts, multiple frigs and t2 frigs with a extender rigged application fit drake.

A mega using null could blap a catalyst at range before it becomes an issue. Especially if its a nano mega with MWD. As its speed could dictate range. Then it could blap 25 in the same way. Not all fights start at 0 on a gate with an autopiloting freighter.

Blap dreads/titans were horribly broken at killing subcaps, thats why they were nerfed. Capitals tracking subcaps poorly is working as intended. I still dont see a carrier or dread firing DDs, so titans are still unique there. Also, being able to bridge any ships is unique to titans as well. Can your carrier, dread, mega, brutix, catalyst do any of those things?

Looking at just dps numbers and trying to base an argument around it is a bit narrow minded.

Only 4 in chat with 3-4 alts each? Big smile

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#387 - 2015-09-15 21:38:51 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?



Ok how long can your mega tank 25 catalyst doing a total of 12500 dps for? And how many catalysts does it take Code. to kill 1 frieghter?

Oh and another interesting point a titan firing at anything smaller than a battleship is pointless as guns don't track targets and they have no drone bay so no help there.

And yes I mentioned it in corp but theres only 4 of us in corp chat!


Depends how the fight starts and how competent you are as a pilot. Ive tanked a 14 man gang with 3 catalysts, multiple frigs and t2 frigs with a extender rigged application fit drake.

A mega using null could blap a catalyst at range before it becomes an issue. Especially if its a nano mega with MWD. As its speed could dictate range. Then it could blap 25 in the same way. Not all fights start at 0 on a gate with an autopiloting freighter.

Blap dreads/titans were horribly broken at killing subcaps, thats why they were nerfed. Capitals tracking subcaps poorly is working as intended. I still dont see a carrier or dread firing DDs, so titans are still unique there. Also, being able to bridge any ships is unique to titans as well. Can your carrier, dread, mega, brutix, catalyst do any of those things?

Looking at just dps numbers and trying to base an argument around it is a bit narrow minded.

Only 4 in chat with 3-4 alts each? Big smile


Who said there was 4 people I said 4 in corp chat!

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#388 - 2015-09-15 21:53:17 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Forum CTA? Good gods the Imperium should just steamroll this thread to 1000 pages just to introduce you to an actual forum CTA.

Not every corp is goon size. Maybe a CTL? Call to Like?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#389 - 2015-09-16 03:49:35 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Natasha Rachmaninova wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Ferox having a 10% bonus to damage plus 75% bonus to range would also almost completely outperform the vulture, which costs 2-3 times more.

No to RLML on BCs. BCs are meant to kill cruisers and field a large tank. We dont need 600 burst dps ships with MJD and 100k EHP tank. Rlml are for anti-frig, and BCs are anti-cruiser. Id like to see different missile systems other than RLML being used. HAMs are still viable, you just have to focus on application, and not max tank.

If BCs can field RLML effectively, then they can do what cruisers/dessies do, in an all in one package. Obsoleting cruisers again. Each class needs to counterplay the other classes in some way. We dont need a one size fits all. I mean, look at the orthrus, i have never seen one without RLML. It can kill cruisers, frigs, BCs and probably BS given enough time.


I disagree, simply because drone boats always have option to deal with frigs using smaller drones. Why shouldn't missile boats get the option too? That could give every race a boat that can deal with frigs then.


HAMs kill frigs too. You just need a web or 2 (preferably 2), neuts help a lot here as well. The benefit of BCs is you have the slots for extra utility. Whether thats 2 webs and a tp, or 1 web and 2 neuts. You can disable frigs pretty quickly. All BCs can also field a full flight of drones. So, constant dps from missiles, neuts, drones and webs = dead frig/t3d.

I have killed AB dram with a drake. Its not overly difficult if you fit properly. If you fit max tank, 100k EHP drake and fit only a scram. then yea, youll die to a frig when using HAMs.

What about my artillery ships? Why cant my 720s transform into 280s? That is basically what you are trying to say. The existing weapons work fine when you have a role in mind when fitting the ship.



So drones are balanced is what you're saying....

Oh wait.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#390 - 2015-09-16 03:54:27 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.



You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?



Ok how long can your mega tank 25 catalyst doing a total of 12500 dps for? And how many catalysts does it take Code. to kill 1 frieghter?

Oh and another interesting point a titan firing at anything smaller than a battleship is pointless as guns don't track targets and they have no drone bay so no help there.

And yes I mentioned it in corp but theres only 4 of us in corp chat!


Depends how the fight starts and how competent you are as a pilot. Ive tanked a 14 man gang with 3 catalysts, multiple frigs and t2 frigs with a extender rigged application fit drake.

A mega using null could blap a catalyst at range before it becomes an issue. Especially if its a nano mega with MWD. As its speed could dictate range. Then it could blap 25 in the same way. Not all fights start at 0 on a gate with an autopiloting freighter.

Blap dreads/titans were horribly broken at killing subcaps, thats why they were nerfed. Capitals tracking subcaps poorly is working as intended. I still dont see a carrier or dread firing DDs, so titans are still unique there. Also, being able to bridge any ships is unique to titans as well. Can your carrier, dread, mega, brutix, catalyst do any of those things?

Looking at just dps numbers and trying to base an argument around it is a bit narrow minded.

Only 4 in chat with 3-4 alts each? Big smile


lol, dude, WTF are you talking about.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#391 - 2015-09-16 03:58:52 UTC
Evon R2 wrote:
Uhm everyone is complaining about caldari ships being kinetic locked while other races have selectable damage type weapon systems. Speaking for Amarr and Gallente, selecting the damage type of drones doesn't completely work like it does for missiles actually. Yea sure I can decide which drones to carry in my cargo before I undock, but I'm not that "free" to choose once I undock because of the restrictions of drone bay.

Just look at the Mrymidion, with 200 drone bay I can't possibly carry 4 flight of heavy drones with me to select the suitible one on the fly. Hell even if I carry 2 sets I can't carry meds or lights. If I take ogres with me I can't magically spawn preators once I encounter ships with em resist hole.

Drone boats can select the damage type before undocking while missiles can do the same thing on the fly. I think it is a big difference people are missing while comparing the two.



That's a somewhat reasonable argument,

However...

I'd rather choose what damage type my Drake has when it undocks than literally having no choice.

Sorry, but drones are still broken.
Aramis Rosicrux
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
#392 - 2015-09-16 04:27:02 UTC
Buzz Kill wrote:
Dont forget about the command ships



THIS!!! I spent most of six months training Command Ships and all four races and they stink for almost any role. You might as well paint a big red X on your back as fly a Command Ship.

Also, Anyone want my old Myrmidon BPC's? Blink They're fully researched and a bargain at just 500M ISK.

Assessment: Myrm and Prophecy now the worst BC's.

Support Space Science!! Join the Planetary Society!

planetarysociety.org

==============

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Gramps Pljugi
Black Rabbits
Black Rabbit.
#393 - 2015-09-16 06:15:07 UTC
Like i was saying, prophecy could use another 10mb bandwith for drones, that would help with heavy drone damage application on smaller targets

3x heavy
2x Light target painter/web drones

Its not much but it would help, not sure why ships are locked into 50/75/100/125 drone bandwiths and nothing between. (yes aware of Gila, not relevant to this discussion due to the huge drone buff)
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2015-09-16 07:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Re: Drone velocity bonus

I'm curious whether the velocity bonus applies to drone MWD speed and the orbit speed... If it's both then isn't this negatively affect drone tracking and therefore it's actually a nerf to drone boats? If it is just MWD speed then what is the point?

I'm assuming that this bonus isn't intended to help drones chase micro warp driving frigates but i have never had a problem with drones not being able to catch up with larger targets... So it seems like CCP are just adding this bonus for the sake of it.

I feel that the drone boats equivalent to the 25% optimal and fall off bonus for turrets, would be 25% bonus to drone velocity and optimal range.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#395 - 2015-09-16 08:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Changes look alright to be honest, better than I would have expected for pass 1 anyways.

Contentious points seem to be the kinetic lock and the Harbs cap bonus.

The kinetic lock is probably less a problem for the Drake at small gang scale than the over-riding fast cruiser meta and the way HMLs apply to smaller things, ie really terribly.The kinetic lock in theory makes for meaningful choices and certainly wasn't the death of the ship in days of yore, HMLs just need more work IMO.

As for the cap usage bonus on the Harb, its fine, pulses get better base range and base damage than other turret weapon systems, the cap usage bonus is the price you pay for having a short range turret with amazing base DPS and the ability to apply a good chunk of that DPS out to medium range (or further, with this new bonus).

Generally I still think BCs are always going to be a bit overshadowed until the cruiser line gets a mobility balance pass, but the combination of decent tank, decent EHP and good DPS out to better range, coupled with an MJD is certainly going to make them more viable than before.
Anthar Thebess
#396 - 2015-09-16 08:24:17 UTC
Make battle cruisers first ship that have bonus to the range of the smart bombs.
This will put interesting meta to the game play.

Have BC in fleet , and smartbomb bombs , dictor bubbles, enemy drones , and all other stuff.

We can make this to apply only to Medium Smartbombs , let say 500% range but at half damage.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#397 - 2015-09-16 08:39:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Re: Drone velocity bonus

I'm curious whether the velocity bonus applies to drone MWD speed and the orbit speed... If it's both then isn't this negatively affect drone tracking and therefore it's actually a nerf to drone boats? If it is just MWD speed then what is the point?



The Devs already said it was just to Drone MWD speed.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2015-09-16 09:01:23 UTC
Oh... then yeah it doesn't seem as useful as the falloff and optimal bonus.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2015-09-16 10:55:35 UTC
MR Spleen wrote:
Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.

Ignoring other aspects of these fleets/ships, I'd say design philosophy based on diminishing returns working as intended.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
X4me1eoH
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#400 - 2015-09-16 11:03:05 UTC
Need more lockrange for all bc, for use mjd

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