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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#141 - 2015-09-11 20:03:37 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Hybrid weapons: Kinetic/Thermal
Lazors: EM/thermal

Projectiles - Damage type varies, DPS changes based on range with nerfs with penalties hitting certain areas, certain damage applying differently to Shields or Armor.
Nuclear, Lead, Proton - Range Bonus 60% , tracking Speed Mult 1.05x
Titanium, Uranium - Tracking Speed Mult 1.2x
Fusion, Plasma, Emp - Range bonus -50% Tracking speed Mult 1x

Missiles:
Scourge: Kinetic
Inferno: Thermal
Nova: Explosive
Mjolnir: EM

Ship types Locked into Damage Types:
Any Hybrid Turret Boat is Locked into firing thermal/Kinetic
Any Laser Boat is locked into firing EM/Thermal
SOME Caldari missile boats are locked into Kinetic
Projectile boats can change Damage types while having to remember each penalty for each ammo type as well as which two damage types that ammo type did, range it worked at and if it worked better against shields or Armor for each combat situation they are getting into.

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.




Great OK, let's only give the Myrmidon bonuses to Gallente drones. That'll make it more interesting! And let's only give the Hurricane turret bonuses while using Fusion Ammo!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Arec Bardwin
#142 - 2015-09-11 20:10:50 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
No warp-speed tweaks?

A tiny peek a warp speeds for BCs and BSs would be appreciated.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#143 - 2015-09-11 20:14:17 UTC
In fairness I should say that I like the general thrust of the BC changes, improving range application as a counterbalance to the far faster cruisers we have nowadays is exactly the right approach IMO. Doubtless the stats we're seeing today will need a little tweaking when things shake out, but that's the nature of class-wide balance passes.

But jesus christ, let the poor stupid damb kinetic lock go



let it walk towards the light



let it rest now let it have peace

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#144 - 2015-09-11 20:16:35 UTC
Ao Kishuba wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rename Missiles skills to kinetic damage skills. FFS non missiles races are better in missiles than Caldari. If you want to keep kinetic lock on Caldari, make Minmatars missiles boats - explosions lock, an Amarr EM lock. That would be interesting distinction, don't you think? You are denying your own missiles philosphy - selectable damage.

I do not understand the ruckus about the Kinetic damage bonus. The difference on a Cerb with 3 BCU between CN Scourge and CN Mjolnir is 90 DPS. Considering that some races have extremely high Kinetic resistances, they can reduce your applied kinetic DPS and if you chose another damage type, you can apply more DPS.


You can say the same thing about projectiles or other hulls that don't get the lock. Except they aren't limited. Why do it for certain missile boats but not projectiles or other boats outside of Caldari...

Every Amarr laser ship (Amarr, not Khanid) is locked to EM/Therm. They do not even have the ability to use different damage classes. Every Gallente Hybrid ship is limited to THERM/KIN, with no way to have another primary damage source.


Yeah, and every Amarr droneboat and missile boat can select damage type, and every Gallente droneboat can select damage type, and every minmatar ship except the Hound and the Talwar can select damage type.

Caldari have a couple missile ships that can select damage type... the rest are locked, and mostly through botched racial bonuses, and this is why we're all so frustrated by this.


Projectiles are not fully damage selectable. Only EM/PP/EXPLOSIVE. Kinetic is partial with sabot, but it comes at a huge damage reduction.

The whole kinetic being the less desirable damage type is bullsh**. Its less desirable now because gallente is master race and has arguably recieved way too many buffs. So everyone and their mother flies them. If you take a step back and look at other ships, then kinetic is still quite useful. In my arty ships i still prefer sabot over depleted uranium.

Kinetic is lowest resist for any t2 minmatar ship, most t1 ships have kinetic holes, the svipul and loki have kinetic holes. Yes you cant engage a deimos or ishtar in a t1 drake. But guess what, the navy drake certainly has the potential to.

Its no different if you compare amarr vs t2 minmatar, or gal vs t2 caldari (which have shield resist bonus on top of t2 resists). A deimos would struggle vs a nighthawk for example. Kinetic certainly has its uses, but is not the swiss army knife everyone wants it to be. A drake is not going to counter everyship in the game, accept it.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#145 - 2015-09-11 20:19:43 UTC

  • The Ferox rebalance is very clever, good job!
  • The Drake rebalance still kinetic locked... Hmm... Not so much. X
  • The Cyclone rebalance.. Please, its barely touched even though the statistics CLEARLY shows how desperate it was for a buff, and what excuse is given "it is underestimated". Hmm.. Not convinced. EVE Players aren't Min/Maxers one second, and then blind fools the next. If the ship is under-used, its for a reason. Besides, its speed buff spinned as "above average" is exactly the same as the hurricane for instance. Nothing above average here, that's blatant lies xD
  • Thanks for not buffing the drone boats even more.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#146 - 2015-09-11 20:22:32 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Here's an idea: give the medium micro jump drive a bonus to targeting range while active.
Right now MMJD is only usable as a defensive module except for the buffer tanked Myrmidon, Gnosis and N. Harbinger which can afford to sacrifice their 5th midslot for a sensor booster. This would allow battlecruisers to start locking as they spool up their MMJD which would make them a real threat to kiting ships which is very useful and much needed.


I think with these range bonuses, a single target range rig is sufficient. No need to waste a mid. Maybe, ill have to check the numbers. I think its fair though. Homogenizing all BCs to the same lock range isnt good though. Dilutes the class IMO.
Jaime Gomes
Unkindness Incorporated
Who Dares Wins.
#147 - 2015-09-11 20:23:00 UTC
I still think the cyclone needs to revert to a projectile based weapon system instead of the crappy missile one since there is something like the drake that exists.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#148 - 2015-09-11 20:25:29 UTC
this whole thing sucks, but I really do like seeing generic (optimal + falloff) range bonuses. it's pretty horrible getting an optimal bonus on a projectile ship, or pretty much any range bonus on a gallente ship (T2 ammo blasters being about as much optimal as falloff, and antimatter being all falloff).
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#149 - 2015-09-11 20:27:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#150 - 2015-09-11 20:28:06 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
this whole thing sucks, but I really do like seeing generic (optimal + falloff) range bonuses. it's pretty horrible getting an optimal bonus on a projectile ship, or pretty much any range bonus on a gallente ship (T2 ammo blasters being about as much optimal as falloff, and antimatter being all falloff).



Uh, the Myrm and Brutix are getting an optimal and falloff bonus

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#151 - 2015-09-11 20:29:02 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism#Modern_usage

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Arch-Magus Mephisto
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2015-09-11 20:29:31 UTC
The Hubbub about the Drake is still sorta misplaced. Yeah sure you can make it about as tanky as a Battlship but it's still slow and heavy missile damage isn't that fantastic.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2015-09-11 20:31:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Hybrid weapons: Kinetic/Thermal
Lazors: EM/thermal

Projectiles - Damage type varies, DPS changes based on range with nerfs with penalties hitting certain areas, certain damage applying differently to Shields or Armor.
Nuclear, Lead, Proton - Range Bonus 60% , tracking Speed Mult 1.05x
Titanium, Uranium - Tracking Speed Mult 1.2x
Fusion, Plasma, Emp - Range bonus -50% Tracking speed Mult 1x

Missiles:
Scourge: Kinetic
Inferno: Thermal
Nova: Explosive
Mjolnir: EM

Ship types Locked into Damage Types:
Any Hybrid Turret Boat is Locked into firing thermal/Kinetic
Any Laser Boat is locked into firing EM/Thermal
SOME Caldari missile boats are locked into Kinetic
Projectile boats can change Damage types while having to remember each penalty for each ammo type as well as which two damage types that ammo type did, range it worked at and if it worked better against shields or Armor for each combat situation they are getting into.

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.




Great OK, let's only give the Myrmidon bonuses to Gallente drones. That'll make it more interesting! And let's only give the Hurricane turret bonuses while using Fusion Ammo!
Gallente drones already do the most damage tho...

Drones have a very noticeable change in damage from gallente to minmatar, while this isnt hull specific since it affects all drone boats, it's still there.

Same with projectiles. You have a huge split between its primary and secondary damage types (with no primary kinetic) and a couple of them even have opposing secondary damages like EMP that does about 25% of its secondary/tertiary (explosive/kinetic) on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Missiles are the only weapon system that has full and untethered selectability. On that note, you'll notice that each faction of missile boats has its own bonuses that favor one loadout over another.

Looking at the different damage types available in a given weapon system leaves a lot on the table.

The biggest issue with the bonuses really, is the heavy-handed bonuses like on the drake and condor. It makes it a much harder choice to use non-kinetic since you lose the 50% bonus, which is huge. Also the inconsistency of the bonuses, but thats more annoying than problematic.

And with that in mind, most caldari ships (I might gamble to say all) that have a kinetic bonus, also have more launchers than their class counterparts. If not extra bonuses too.

damage specific bonuses are not bad, but heavy bonuses can be a pain.
Lucius Exitius
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#154 - 2015-09-11 20:36:36 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.


Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#155 - 2015-09-11 20:44:23 UTC
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.


Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense.



"The Drake does normal damage for it's class when firing Kinetic missiles, and 2/3 as much when firing anything else. Can't you see why this is actually a good thing for the Drake???"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hengle Teron
Rorquals Anonymous
Two Maidens One Chalice
#156 - 2015-09-11 20:45:11 UTC
Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2015-09-11 20:48:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.


Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense.



"The Drake does normal subpar when application is considered, damage for it's class when firing Kinetic missiles, and 2/3 as much when firing anything else. Can't you see why this is actually a good thing for the Drake???"



Fixed.

Make the missile speed bonus an application one please.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2015-09-11 20:49:37 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage.


Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#159 - 2015-09-11 20:57:04 UTC
Ao Kishuba wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.




Not sure why you listed different racial drones... every bonused drone ship gets a bonus to all drones (some are restricted to a size of drone, but never to a damage type or race), so listing separate racial drones is like listing different missile types and saying "See? It's damage locked".

There is a difference between "My battleship has 50mbit/s of bandwidth and is bonused for missiles" and "My cruiser can field a flight of sentries and gets several bonuses use them". I'm talking about main weapon systems, not utility drones.

edit: and again, you've missed that every non-Caldari missile ship in the game (with the exception of the Talwar) is not damage locked.Caldari are the only race without a selectable-damage main weapon system in every ship class.


Every Ship class? Since i'm bored as hell and fly Caldari a decent amount of times without having to worry about Kinetic missiles.. I decided to Look into all the Caldari ships to Verify that Every Class is unable to select Damage for its main weapon system.

Caldari ships NOT damage Locked - T1 Missile Bonused Hulls

Kestrel -Frigate Class: No damage lock
Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket damage
10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity

Caracal- Cruiser class : An Often used PVP ship across all regions - No Damage Lock
Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rapid Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity

Raven - Battleship Class: This ship seeing ALOT of PVP usage lately - No Damage Lock
Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity

Phoenix - Dreadnought Class - No Damage Lock
Caldari Dreadnought bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances
5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Citadel Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
Role Bonus:
• Can fit Siege modules

Caldari Ships that Are Kinetic Locked - T1 Hulls
Condor - Frigate Class
Corax - Destroyer Class
Drake - Battlecruiser

4 Missile boats NOT locked on damage type Kestrel, Caracal, Raven, Phoenix
3 Missile boats Locked Condor, Corax, Drake

Tech 2 Hulls.

T2 Missile Bonused Hulls Not Locked
Crow - Interceptor
Jackdaw - Tactical Destroyer
Widow - Black Ops
Golem - Marauder

T2 Missile Bonus Hulls Kinetic Locked
Hawk - Assault Frigate
Manticore - Bomber
Flycatcher - Interdictor
Cerberus - HAC
Onyx - Heavy Interdictor
Nighthawk - Command ship

T2 hulls have 6 locked 4 not locked

Navy Issues (since why not finish off the types...)

Caldari Navy Hookbill - 20% bonus to Kinetic Light missile and rocket Damage + 10% bonus to EM, Explosive, thermal for light missiles and rockets. Since the larger Bonus is towards Kinetic.. I'll throw this as Locked for ya to save debating
Caracal Navy Issues - Not Locked
Drake Navy Issue - Not Locked
Raven Navy Issue - Not Locked

Navy Hulls have 3 Not Locked to 1 locked.

Tech 3
Tengu Offensive subsystems have 2 Not Locked and 1 Locked.

All classes are NOT damage Locked. Plenty of ships to choose from across the spectrum.

You may continue your argument about how they are all forced to use one damage type now.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#160 - 2015-09-11 21:00:48 UTC
The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock

Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016