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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#681 - 2015-08-20 13:49:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sov didn't do much, but news articles of epic battles with $300,000 in damages did and those battles occurred because of committed assets in null. Those types of battles will no longer occur under the current system since people no longer need to commit assets to take sov.


Does anyone actually have any number of how many of those "media event" created account stayed sub instead of quitting for various reason when they realized getting in those meaningful battle wasn't exactly guaranteed?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#682 - 2015-08-20 13:51:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
The issue isn't all of FozzieSov, a majority of us like the concept. It needs work, however.

Zipping around at 4 km/s, in an interceptor, and clicking a button should not in any way give you ownership in null sec sovereignty. Sovereignty should be fought over and influence a push of assets by group A versus current sov citizens group B. If an entity wants to take space, they need to dedicate themselves to it, not send a lone interceptor with the belief "If you don't get it now, just go back and try again in a little bit. They will eventually get tired of responding."
.

you are quite right. it's not zipping around in interceptor that gives the ownership, it's failure of defenders to show up.
if an entity wants to hold space, they need to dedicate themselves to it, and show up for defense. it shouldn't be based on defender sitting docked up protected by gazillions of HP


How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.


So he may not have his own doorbell you can ring, but is there something stopping you giving the kid a beat down?

You could make his life a misery.

And I'm not talking about catching the inty. Go RF all their POS, hellcamp the place the call home. Go dish out some retribution.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#683 - 2015-08-20 13:52:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sov didn't do much, but news articles of epic battles with $300,000 in damages did and those battles occurred because of committed assets in null. Those types of battles will no longer occur under the current system since people no longer need to commit assets to take sov.
Does anyone actually have any number of how many of those "media event" created account stayed sub instead of quitting for various reason when they realized getting in those meaningful battle wasn't exactly guaranteed?
Only CCP would be able to tell. But whatever the case, I'd rather see EVE in international non-gaming news for epic game events than not be in there at all.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#684 - 2015-08-20 13:53:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So he may not have his own doorbell you can ring, but is there something stopping you giving the kid a beat down?

You could make his life a misery.

And I'm not talking about catching the inty. Go RF all their POS, hellcamp the place the call home. Go dish out some retribution.
So waste even more of your time doing boring things while they jump clone to highsec or play on alts and hide out until you go away?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#685 - 2015-08-20 13:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Warmeister
Frostys Virpio wrote:

How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.

very good analogy. you have a choice. you either come to kids house and make sure he never does it again, or hire someone to stand in front of the door. or stand behind the door so you can punch the kid in the face as soon as he does it.

or you can ignore it and let the kid occupy couple of your rooms. choice is entirely yours.

one thing you most certainly can't to is ask god to prevent kids from ringing doorbells. well you can, but the response will be silence and laughs from those around you
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#686 - 2015-08-20 13:59:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sov didn't do much, but news articles of epic battles with $300,000 in damages did and those battles occurred because of committed assets in null. Those types of battles will no longer occur under the current system since people no longer need to commit assets to take sov.


Does anyone actually have any number of how many of those "media event" created account stayed sub instead of quitting for various reason when they realized getting in those meaningful battle wasn't exactly guaranteed?



To be fair, those battles could happen (virtually) tomorrow if the players wished it to be so.

Blaming the lack of a conflict driver on the new sov system is disingenuous.

The reason they do not, is players currently value ownership of space pixels over blow-out levels of fun.

There is nothing wrong with this of course, but keep in mind that's the current mindset yet at the same time people moan about a lack of big fights and a lack of fun; when in reality what they want to have all the fun and none of the risk of losing said space pixels.

We could have a big fight at the weekend if people were so inclined, as I goaded our Russian comrades in this very thread. The were bemoaning the lack of fights - so I says rock up to Deklein with a super fleet and report back on how the "lack of content and no big fights" went....oddly they refused, muttering something about fozziesov....eve is kill or other such "we don't have the stones for that" cover excuses.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#687 - 2015-08-20 13:59:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
you are quite right. it's not zipping around in interceptor that gives the ownership, it's failure of defenders to show up.
if an entity wants to hold space, they need to dedicate themselves to it, and show up for defense. it shouldn't be based on defender sitting docked up protected by gazillions of HP
Then why not make it so entosis modules can only go on a a BC or above? If the defenders don't show up, then ship type is irrelevant. The only reason people want to use interceptors is so they can run away when defenders do show up. Tell me I'm wrong.

you are wrong.

why not complement it with a rule that defenders can only attack the ship that runs entosis with exact same ship class, and only one person can attack. if that person dies, entosis ship is granted full immunity until he finishes entosising structure
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#688 - 2015-08-20 14:01:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sov didn't do much, but news articles of epic battles with $300,000 in damages did and those battles occurred because of committed assets in null. Those types of battles will no longer occur under the current system since people no longer need to commit assets to take sov.


the only reason those battles occurred is because people stuffed up.

most of the times what happens is that one of the sides looks at the opponent, decides it's not worth the risk and punts the timer.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#689 - 2015-08-20 14:01:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
afkalt wrote:
So he may not have his own doorbell you can ring, but is there something stopping you giving the kid a beat down?

You could make his life a misery.

And I'm not talking about catching the inty. Go RF all their POS, hellcamp the place the call home. Go dish out some retribution.
So waste even more of your time doing boring things while they jump clone to highsec or play on alts and hide out until you go away?



The ENTIRE alliance jump clones? Stops playing? Really? You think that's not a win for you?

If they go play on alts whilst all their towers burn....that's not "nothing" my friend.


So quit making excuses, go pick up the bat and go administer some good old fashioned revenge.

Honestly you just come over as an over entitled cry baby

"Go hurt them back"
"But I Don't wanna, that's :effort:"
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#690 - 2015-08-20 14:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: bigbillthaboss3
Warmeister wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.

very good analogy. you have a choice. you either come to kids house and make sure he never does it again, or hire someone to stand in front of the door. or stand behind the door so you can punch the kid in the face as soon as he does it.

or you can ignore it and let the kid occupy couple of your rooms. choice is entirely yours.

one thing you most certainly can't to is ask god to prevent kids from ringing doorbells. well you can, but the response will be silence and laughs from those around you



Is this a subliminal "Hire PL today!" pitch I see?

That was a pretty funny yet accurate analogy by Frosty though hah. For arguments sake, imagine this kid lives in government owned orphanage housing and only goes out with his Harry Potter invisibility cloak and Nimbus 2000. So when you go to respond he either A. disappears from sight or B. zips away at blazing speeds so nothing can really be done about it. You also can't really do anything about his current living situation because it's government property.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#691 - 2015-08-20 14:05:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
The issue isn't all of FozzieSov, a majority of us like the concept. It needs work, however.

Zipping around at 4 km/s, in an interceptor, and clicking a button should not in any way give you ownership in null sec sovereignty. Sovereignty should be fought over and influence a push of assets by group A versus current sov citizens group B. If an entity wants to take space, they need to dedicate themselves to it, not send a lone interceptor with the belief "If you don't get it now, just go back and try again in a little bit. They will eventually get tired of responding."
.

you are quite right. it's not zipping around in interceptor that gives the ownership, it's failure of defenders to show up.
if an entity wants to hold space, they need to dedicate themselves to it, and show up for defense. it shouldn't be based on defender sitting docked up protected by gazillions of HP


How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.


So he may not have his own doorbell you can ring, but is there something stopping you giving the kid a beat down?

You could make his life a misery.

And I'm not talking about catching the inty. Go RF all their POS, hellcamp the place the call home. Go dish out some retribution.


Too bad the kid might own nothing of "value" beside his alliance tag right? Or I guess I can hell camp a NPC station for months on end while he just jump clone to another and undock a new interceptor and come back to my door.

If MOA for example always committed their cerberus fleet every single time they entosis a system, I'm pretty sure everybody would be happy to have to defend the damn system because something would happen. I know they do it at least some time but that does not remove the stupidity that are all the ding dong ditch happening all the time by lone interceptor that also can't be ignored.

What is so damn bad about asking that the barrier of entry to owning SOV be something like a fielding a small cruiser fleet? I'm not asking for caps or supers or a 256 battleship force. I'm just asking for the guy who want to own territory to have to commit something more than a single throw away nimble ship. Am I really asking for too much with that?
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#692 - 2015-08-20 14:06:35 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.

very good analogy. you have a choice. you either come to kids house and make sure he never does it again, or hire someone to stand in front of the door. or stand behind the door so you can punch the kid in the face as soon as he does it.

or you can ignore it and let the kid occupy couple of your rooms. choice is entirely yours.

one thing you most certainly can't to is ask god to prevent kids from ringing doorbells. well you can, but the response will be silence and laughs from those around you


I'd rather ask why does he feel entitled to the whole building, or significant parts of it, when it's technically not his (belongs to CCP). The landlord lets you take as much rooms as you can use, and if the room is unoccupied, it's theirs for the taking.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#693 - 2015-08-20 14:08:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Too bad the kid might own nothing of "value" beside his alliance tag right? Or I guess I can hell camp a NPC station for months on end while he just jump clone to another and undock a new interceptor and come back to my door.

If MOA for example always committed their cerberus fleet every single time they entosis a system, I'm pretty sure everybody would be happy to have to defend the damn system because something would happen. I know they do it at least some time but that does not remove the stupidity that are all the ding dong ditch happening all the time by lone interceptor that also can't be ignored.

What is so damn bad about asking that the barrier of entry to owning SOV be something like a fielding a small cruiser fleet? I'm not asking for caps or supers or a 256 battleship force. I'm just asking for the guy who want to own territory to have to commit something more than a single throw away nimble ship. Am I really asking for too much with that?


I guess undocking said tech 1 cruiser to contest the guy is too much to ask from the mighty 40k gewncry qqderation.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#694 - 2015-08-20 14:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Warmeister wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Then why not make it so entosis modules can only go on a a BC or above? If the defenders don't show up, then ship type is irrelevant. The only reason people want to use interceptors is so they can run away when defenders do show up. Tell me I'm wrong.
you are wrong.

why not complement it with a rule that defenders can only attack the ship that runs entosis with exact same ship class, and only one person can attack. if that person dies, entosis ship is granted full immunity until he finishes entosising structure
Troll status confirmed. The only reason to being an evasion fit interceptor is to evade. All of this horseshit about it being against defenders who don't show up is ridiculous.

The point is that undefended sov should be easy to take. When a defender shows up though then conflict should be driven. Interceptors mean that players can assault sov with no intention of fighting and no intention of taking sov. It's dumb.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#695 - 2015-08-20 14:12:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What is so damn bad about asking that the barrier of entry to owning SOV be something like a fielding a small cruiser fleet? I'm not asking for caps or supers or a 256 battleship force. I'm just asking for the guy who want to own territory to have to commit something more than a single throw away nimble ship. Am I really asking for too much with that?


Because the crying wouldn't stop there.

You know it and I know it.

Hell this thread is full of almost nothing but suggestions that mean a lasering ship is a guaranteed killmail. "Immobilise it!" "No reps!" "battleships only" "no nullification" "command ships only"

I'm realistic, expecting existing sov holders to be remotely happy about the change in landscape is like expecting turkeys to vote for christmas.

The system is imperfect, certainly, but most of the ideas in this thread are just downright stupid in a bid to return to the old status quo as fast as humanly possible. That is the sooner they can get back to hiding behind bubbles and a couple of camps and enforce everything with the thread of supers the better.


I'll say it again, if you think you have problems, spare a thought for WH users and citadels. If you think you have problems today, those guys ain't seen nothing yet. And I'm one of said WHers.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#696 - 2015-08-20 14:12:59 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:

Is this a subliminal "Hire PL today!" pitch I see?

That was a pretty funny yet accurate analogy by Frosty though hah. For arguments sake, imagine this kid lives in government owned orphanage housing and only goes out with his Harry Potter invisibility cloak and Nimbus 2000. So when you go to respond he either A. disappears from sight or B. zips away at blazing speeds so nothing can really be done about it. You also can't really do anything about his current living situation because it's government property.

like i said - hire someone to stand in front of the door.
or create a roster for people in your household to stand in front of the door.

plenty of people are AFK cloaking in other people's systems to disrupt activities of carebears. you need to do the same in your own systems and trolling ceptors won't be a thing anymore.

or you could actually live in your systems, how's that for a novel idea?
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#697 - 2015-08-20 14:15:45 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:

Is this a subliminal "Hire PL today!" pitch I see?

That was a pretty funny yet accurate analogy by Frosty though hah. For arguments sake, imagine this kid lives in government owned orphanage housing and only goes out with his Harry Potter invisibility cloak and Nimbus 2000. So when you go to respond he either A. disappears from sight or B. zips away at blazing speeds so nothing can really be done about it. You also can't really do anything about his current living situation because it's government property.

like i said - hire someone to stand in front of the door.
or create a roster for people in your household to stand in front of the door.

plenty of people are AFK cloaking in other people's systems to disrupt activities of carebears. you need to do the same in your own systems and trolling ceptors won't be a thing anymore.

or you could actually live in your systems, how's that for a novel idea?



Do you guys live in every system you have an r64 in?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#698 - 2015-08-20 14:18:05 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

How long would you tolerate a kid playing ding dong ditch at your door?

You can't unplug the door bell (they will just knock instead) but if you decide to ignore them, they get to own a room in your house.

very good analogy. you have a choice. you either come to kids house and make sure he never does it again, or hire someone to stand in front of the door. or stand behind the door so you can punch the kid in the face as soon as he does it.


1- The kids house can't really be camped because he lives in various refuge. Camping them all is meaningless since I can't effectively stop him just like camping interceptors is ineffective.

2- Hiring someone to stand in front of this door will make him ring / knock on the other door. Are you gonna pay guards for your house on every single doors? Remember, the guard can't beat up the kids since they can always buy new troll ship.

3- Punching him in the face is useless because the game created an environment where my punch force gets dampened into being irrelevant just like killing a troll ceptor hurt no one.

Do you see now what is stupid about this gameplay?

It's like banning trolls from a forum where creating new account require nothing beside a fake e-mail. Playing dodge-ball where the "time-out" for getting hit is 4 seconds and teams are about 50 each side. Playing hockey with steel plates in front of the nets.

Trolls are literally empowered in the name of "we don't want the link to alter possible doctrine" when you would never have to change your doctrine anyway because you don't need all your ships to be entosis fit.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#699 - 2015-08-20 14:19:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Troll status confirmed. The only reason to being an evasion fit interceptor is to evade. All of this horseshit about it being against defenders who don't show up is ridiculous.

The point is that undefended sov should be easy to take. When a defender shows up though then conflict should be driven. Interceptors mean that players can assault sov with no intention of fighting and no intention of taking sov. It's dumb.

i'm not trolling i just figured that i'm entitled to respond to stupid ideas with another stupid idea.

the thing you said about 'conflict should be driven' is whole load of crap. there are plenty of other ships that have been used prior to fozzisov that could evade capture. there are plenty examples where fleets decide not to engage and just run from the attacker.

why don't we just ask CCP to equalise the speed of all ships and disable warp drives of everyone in the system for 5 minutes once someone new enters. how's that for a conflict driver?
Icycle
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#700 - 2015-08-20 14:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Icycle
Lucas Kell wrote:

Sov didn't do much, but news articles of epic battles with $300,000 in damages did and those battles occurred because of committed assets in null. Those types of battles will no longer occur under the current system since people no longer need to commit assets to take sov.


So you have acknowledged that B-R5RB was an event that was by a mistake of an FC and also by the alliance not paying sov. Before that, all the battles were reasonable and the difference was not as high.
Large battles have been happened in eve for years. The difference is that before there was a lot less blues and a lot more drama. Not there is a lot more blue and a lot less drama.

Its very simple!
LESS Blues, more DRAMA, more FIGHTS!
MORE Blues, less DRAMA, less FIGHTS!

What drives eve is not CCP its PLAYER DRAMA. Thats the really explosive combustion!! PLAYER DRAMA.
The reality is that everyone is happy so stay at home and make isk and not engage in big fights. At MOA we are trying to change that Blink We are trying to make you lose territory and brake up with gobly blob of blues thats hurting the game so much.

Icycle wrote:

They may not have had a reason to start the fight, but the mechanics are why the fight escalated. Fights will invariably be because group A can't deal peacefully with group B and often because of resources (see the entire fountain war), but thanks to the new mechanics, when that happens no big battle occurs. We have people now citing 60b in losses as an epic scale battle. That's horrendous to be quite honest.


In a convensional world how do you fight a number thats over 50 times larger than you? You have to change the way you think and you got to provide tools to do it that are not present in the game, its the only way. The other way is another DRF. But with so many blues I doubt it will happen. Its the blue donut that is the desease and all the shady agreements that I wont fight you if you dont fight me...Or we will only kill ships, no structure shooting etc. Its all the bs that this blue donut brought.
I guarantee you if the gloves are for for real and its all in, you will look at your neighbour and say hmm, nice moon goo, i will take it.

The only feasible other way I think to really destroy the blob will be moon goo respawning in different regions of eve. This will signal the end of blues but you will be living like a nomad in null chasing the goo. That maybe too drastic ...I cant seriously see anyone fighting for anything if they got no chance of wining it specially with so many blobs. They will all have the same idea instead that you mentioned above. I will sti at home and make isk.