Player Features and Ideas Discussion

/me pokes the microphone "Hello..?"

"echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "missiles still need help" "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.." "echo.."

Okay I left one hint in here but I feel so alone and abandonned now

Except most of us aren't happy with the numbers. But here's what you can do to fix them.

Missile Guidance Enhancer I ... 5%(+0.5) Ev, 5% Er
Pro-Nav Compact Missile Guidance Enhancer ... 6% Ev (+1.0), 6% (+0.5) Er
Missile Guidance Enhancer II ... 7.5% (+2.0) Ev, 7.5% (+1.5) Er
Mordus Legion Guidance Enhancer ... 10% Ev, 10% Er, 7.5% Mv, 7.5% Ft

Missile Guidance Computer I ... 6% (+1.0) Ev, 6% (+1.0) Er
Astro-Inertial Compact Missile Guidance Computer ... 7.5% (+1.5) Ev, 7.5% (+1.5) Er
Missile Guidance Computer II ... 8.5% (+1.0) Ev, 8.5% (+1.0) Er
Caldari Navy Guidance Computer ... 10% Ev, 10% Er, 6% Mv, 6% Ft
Dread Guristas Guidance Computer ... 10% Ev, 10% Er, 6% Mv, 6% Ft

Maybe this is the thread to ressurect my old idea

Short version: Add launchers which modify ammo properties - so long range ones add range but reduce precision, short range ones reduce range but add precision.

Long verison with some copy pasting:

It would give missiles some fine tuning options.

It would be to mirror the guns having smaller sized turrets per size class.

So guns have, for example:

Small Size 1 [Meta 1-N]
Small Size 2 [Meta 1-N]
Small Size 3 [Meta 1-N]
Medium Size 1 [Meta 1-N]
Medium Size 2 [Meta 1-N]
Medium Size 3 [Meta 1-N]

And so on

Launchers have:

Small size 1 [Meta 1-N]
Medium size 1 [Meta 1-N]
Large size 1 [Meta 1-N]


Add some more sizes, modify properties to give players meaningful choices and CCP no longer have to balance a weapon system doing XXX DPS at 0-250km.


As I see it:
>It would allow pilots to fit for a more defined role
>Allow CCP to have some flexibility in controlling the launchers and their meta with a lot more precision.
>Give launcher users fitting compromises - Currently there is no launcher equivalent analogous to dropping 425mm to 220mm AC's for fitting reasons
>Mitigates the problem of trying to balance a 0-100km+ weapon system into something which is "fair" across all ranges by breaking that engagement range down into chunks.

I think you are confusing the role bonus of Barghest which the actual range bonus would be as same as a Raven or a Golem. It increases 200% of velocity, but decrease 50% of flight time = (1+2) x (1-0.5) = 1.5 which is equivalent to 50% increase of velocity of Ravens.

But anyhow, I don't need 223km or 400km missiles. I don't need an AFK golem.

I need... nothing with this ****.

These modules are officially useless.
After spending several weeks trying to get them to work on just about every level across multiple hulls, I'm officially giving up. Here are a few points to ponder (feel free to experiment to draw your own conclusions):

• Stacking penalties. The new stacking penalties have almost no impact on previous fits. T2 ships like the Cerberus and Golem only have 2 rig slots anyway, and most setups with three rig slots typically featured a pair of T2 rigors and a single T1 or T2 flare (depending on calibration available). These penalties serve only to deter running more than two of the new missile modules, which is kind of a joke when low slots are typically a premium on any ship - let alone missile-based hulls.

• Rigors rule. Based on the current missile formula, rigors still reign supreme. Unlike flares (which cease having any effect once you reach or exceed a target's velocity), reducing your missile explosion radius below the target's signature has a retroactive effect on target velocity. A scripted MGC II gives you 15% explosion radius, 15% explosion velocity, requires CPU and is an active module. Against a stationary target or one where the base missile velocity already matches or exceeds target velocity - the MGC is worth less than a T2 rigor. The benefit from a passive MGE II is even more marginal, as it yields a whopping 5.5% explosion radius and 5.5% explosion velocity. Against a moving target, this is even less beneficial than a single T1 rigor. Heck, even a T1 flare provides more damage application than a MGE II. And again, it's not like low slots grow on trees (especially on ships like the Cerberus, Tengu or Golem).

• Flight time. I honestly have no idea why this variable was even included - because it's borderline useless. Anyone that flies missile ships knows that unless it's a free hull bonus, you run hydraulic rigs to increase your missile velocity (and subsequent range). This not only reduces the frequency of lost volleys in transit, but increases the difficulty to outrun your missiles. Flight time and rocket fuel cache rigs do neither. So would you run a scripted MGC II just to give you +11% missile velocity?

• Fitting requirements and tradeoffs. I won't even comment on the excessively high CPU requirements for these modules, but I'll once again point out that low slots are almost an endangered species on most missile-based ships. MGEs are a lost cause, so I'm going to skip over these entirely. Since a comparison has already been made between rigs and MGCs, let's look at target painters, stasis webs and warp scramblers. There is absolutely zero reason to run a MGC over a target painter, and outside of PvE stasis webs and warp scramblers are going to be far more important modules. In fact, almost anything is more valuable than a mid-slot MGC (any capacitor or shield augmentation, for example).

What's to be done?
These modules (and the "missile rebalance" package is an unmitigated disaster, and the only solution is to apply fire in liberal quantities... This need to be entirely scrapped and redesigned from the ground up.

1. Missiles operate at a fundamentally different level than drones or guns, so trying to make them behave in a similar fashion is an effort in futility (they need something unique). That being said, it should also be pointed out that T2 launchers do not benefit in the same manner with respect to specialization that T2 guns do (T2 gunnery specialization augments Faction ammunition, but T2 missile specialization has no effect on Faction ammunition). There's also the higher skill requirements, but I digress...
2. Missile formula (provided it can be found in the Legacy code, it's due for an update).
3. Kinetic pigeon-holing. Nuff said.

I find the range bonuses they give to be pretty spectacular.

They're essentially just like tracking computers. Almost exclusively used to boost range and not really used to boost tracking as they aren't better than a web.

Seems okay. Even though it is a bit "meh"

The same can be said about turret rigs and tracking computers.

Missile Tracking computers are balanced to give similar results to turret tracking computers. Maybe both need a buff to be more viable.

Yes they do, but unlike T2 guns - T2 launchers are still slower than Faction launchers (even with specialization V). There's also the difference in ammunition capacity, so utilizing Faction ammunition in Faction launchers will still deliver more overall damage. With T2 guns, you have an identical rate of fire and identical ammunition capacity to Faction guns - so the T2 guns apply more overall damage utilizing Faction ammunition.

See, here's the problem with the web argument.
Everyone says that the one true benefit of missiles is the application across all effective ranges.

The fact that a web outperforms isn't a problem, but the fact that a web outperforms by a significant amount IS the problem.
To the point where you're better off getting within 10km and webbing than you are at range.

This negates the reason for using long range missiles.
If you're going to be within 10km anyway, might as well fit close range weapons, which makes long range missiles virtually useless outside of the alliance tournament.

Also, the fact that TPs are generally more effective inside 100kms negates the point of using these modules at all, as you basically never see a missile boat being used outside that range, not to mention that TPs have less fitting costs and less cap usage.


The other problem is that more than one MGC is always stacking penalized, since it applies dual script bonuses.
If you could put a exp radius and exp velocity script, or flight time and velocity script, then these modules might actually be useful.
As it sits now,'you're better off fitting the rigs and using TPs, as you'll be able to get either range AND application in some short range missile cases, or application with more application for things like long range missiles or brawling short range fits.

The only situation where an MGC is a better choice is with FoF missiles.
It might also be noted that the MGE is useless in virtually ALL situations and might as well be removed.

Except explosion radius always trumps explosion velocity, so given a choice the answer is obvious. The primary reason to fit flare rigs is that you lack the calibration for a third rigor rig. With the new stacking penalties, a T1 flare will almost always provide more benefit than a T1 rigor (this was not the case previously).