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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#961 - 2015-07-30 08:18:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Lolololol this is hilarious.
How long until ccp responds? Days? Weeks?

This is an interesting glitch. I would like to know more about why. It kind of looks like something to do with travel time and the server tick. More sconce needs to be done.

Hey, did I mention we're still waiting for the rapid launcher ammunition swap fix? But since this isn't a 'design' issue, I suspect we'll see a much faster response.


What "rapid launcher ammo swap fix"?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#962 - 2015-07-30 08:38:24 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Lolololol this is hilarious.
How long until ccp responds? Days? Weeks?

This is an interesting glitch. I would like to know more about why. It kind of looks like something to do with travel time and the server tick. More sconce needs to be done.

Hey, did I mention we're still waiting for the rapid launcher ammunition swap fix? But since this isn't a 'design' issue, I suspect we'll see a much faster response.


They say hope dies last. It's still early, the office just opened so let them have their coffee first.


Moving on, I don't expect anything anymore at this time. Much talk, no action. They also say, you only miss something when you don't have it anymore.
So many things are taken for granted these days, WE are taken for granted. We let us treat like people we represent to be. Cold, cutthroat, evil and most of all forgiving.

Yes, forgiving!

Think about this. The next time a good thing comes our way, all the bad shall be forgiven. Break our trust, shame on you, break it again shame on us.
I am free to admit that I may squat about game design but I do know enough about ship vs ship combat in EVE to plead my case.
Too bad this is not a democracy but the modern age dictatorship and the people have to take what they have been given or else.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#963 - 2015-07-30 08:43:00 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
What "rapid launcher ammo swap fix"?

Exactly.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anthar Thebess
#964 - 2015-07-30 08:53:07 UTC
So many prople moved from ishtars to missle doctrines ( cerberus mostly )Roll

I think simplest solution will be for CCP to create, optimal range and falloff for missile Lol
Falloff range : last tick
Optimal , every thing not last tick.


Bug solved. Pirate

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#965 - 2015-07-30 12:30:34 UTC
How much is there left to say?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#966 - 2015-07-30 12:47:29 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Quote:
Situation:
Orthrus has 55km optimal (in-game).
Target is sitting at 47km from the orthrus.
Both ships are at 0.0 m/s not moving.
Orthrus dumps its 20 missile volleys into the target. Typhoon takes 11 hits. Logs from both sides confirms only 11 hits have been taken.



Holy crap... I thought I was going crazy.
No one else seems to share this issue with me.

I will say, this issue is not limited to rapid launchers.

I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#967 - 2015-07-30 14:13:26 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.

Apparently this might be linked to grouping launchers. Individual volleys for the time being?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#968 - 2015-07-30 15:01:37 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.

Apparently this might be linked to grouping launchers. Individual volleys for the time being?


Well, that might address the issue, or it may make it more prevalent.
If it's tied to grouping then yes, but it's tied to server ticks or something like that, it'll happen more often.
Matt Faithbringer
YOLO so no taxes please
#969 - 2015-07-30 15:42:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.

Apparently this might be linked to grouping launchers. Individual volleys for the time being?


Well, that might address the issue, or it may make it more prevalent.
If it's tied to grouping then yes, but it's tied to server ticks or something like that, it'll happen more often.


well if I remember something from my math classes it should happen more often, but to the same percentage of the damage, so dps shouldn't change
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#970 - 2015-07-30 16:14:52 UTC
Matt Faithbringer wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.

Apparently this might be linked to grouping launchers. Individual volleys for the time being?


Well, that might address the issue, or it may make it more prevalent.
If it's tied to grouping then yes, but it's tied to server ticks or something like that, it'll happen more often.


well if I remember something from my math classes it should happen more often, but to the same percentage of the damage, so dps shouldn't change



unless its an issue with group of launchers that is causing this and ungrouped launcher don't have the bug. This assumes that its an issue of group vs ungroup which we dont know.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#971 - 2015-07-30 16:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Lady Rift wrote:
Matt Faithbringer wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have had the issue with torps and cruise missiles on my Golem, as well as with lights on a jackdaw.
It seems to be extremely random.
I ran all 6 rooms of angel extravaganza and didn't see the issue once, but then I ran Rogue Drone Harassment which is only one room, and watched it happen 5 times.
This was with a cruise Golem in Bastion, which obviously doesn't have any range issues.

Apparently this might be linked to grouping launchers. Individual volleys for the time being?


Well, that might address the issue, or it may make it more prevalent.
If it's tied to grouping then yes, but it's tied to server ticks or something like that, it'll happen more often.


well if I remember something from my math classes it should happen more often, but to the same percentage of the damage, so dps shouldn't change



unless its an issue with group of launchers that is causing this and ungrouped launcher don't have the bug. This assumes that its an issue of group vs ungroup which we dont know.



Yes, if it's a grouping issue, then ungrouping would give more DPS.

HOWEVER, if it's a server tick issue or some other such bug, ungrouping could cause even further reduced dps, as there's a higher chance for more missiles to be effected by the issue.

Edit.... I don't have an alt account or someone who's willing to sit on the test server with me, trying this out.
Is there anyway someone else can run some tests?
On second thought, I may be able to do it as well by flying out to null and pounding on a structure for a while.
stoicfaux
#972 - 2015-07-30 18:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Mario Putzo wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Quote:
Situation:
Orthrus has 55km optimal (in-game).
Target is sitting at 47km from the orthrus.
Both ships are at 0.0 m/s not moving.
Orthrus dumps its 20 missile volleys into the target. Typhoon takes 11 hits. Logs from both sides confirms only 11 hits have been taken.

Yawn... Here's a thread from 2010: Golem pilots/Raven pilots - Torp glitch?

I did some testing prior to that and wierdness happens to missiles at the edge of the range. Also, don't forget that missiles take time to accelerate. The in-game display may or may not take acceleration time into account, i.e. The Big Ninetails Thread of Useful Formulae™ -> TRUE Missile Range.


edit: Ah yes, good times, good times: http://eve-search.com/thread/1307419-0

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#973 - 2015-07-30 19:20:51 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Quote:
Situation:
Orthrus has 55km optimal (in-game).
Target is sitting at 47km from the orthrus.
Both ships are at 0.0 m/s not moving.
Orthrus dumps its 20 missile volleys into the target. Typhoon takes 11 hits. Logs from both sides confirms only 11 hits have been taken.

Yawn... Here's a thread from 2010: Golem pilots/Raven pilots - Torp glitch?

I did some testing prior to that and wierdness happens to missiles at the edge of the range. Also, don't forget that missiles take time to accelerate. The in-game display may or may not take acceleration time into account, i.e. The Big Ninetails Thread of Useful Formulae™ -> TRUE Missile Range.


edit: Ah yes, good times, good times: http://eve-search.com/thread/1307419-0



We're all aware that you don't get the listed range in actual use.
What we're speaking of is a completely different issue.

I have a cruise Golem.
Out of bastion, my fury cruise missiles have a 166km range.
My lock range IN bastion is only 118km, not to mention my range is then increased to 208km.

Despite having the range to hit anything I can target, I sometimes have missile volleys disappear when shooting a target 40kms away.

What you're explaining is if your torps say you have 60km range, you really only have 55km range, and if the target is moving, you have less and less range the faster the target goes.

Completely different issue.
Matt Faithbringer
YOLO so no taxes please
#974 - 2015-07-30 19:38:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Quote:
Situation:
Orthrus has 55km optimal (in-game).
Target is sitting at 47km from the orthrus.
Both ships are at 0.0 m/s not moving.
Orthrus dumps its 20 missile volleys into the target. Typhoon takes 11 hits. Logs from both sides confirms only 11 hits have been taken.

Yawn... Here's a thread from 2010: Golem pilots/Raven pilots - Torp glitch?

I did some testing prior to that and wierdness happens to missiles at the edge of the range. Also, don't forget that missiles take time to accelerate. The in-game display may or may not take acceleration time into account, i.e. The Big Ninetails Thread of Useful Formulae™ -> TRUE Missile Range.


edit: Ah yes, good times, good times: http://eve-search.com/thread/1307419-0


The issue here is that if both ships are not moving, missiles should *always hit* or *always miss*, not *sometimes hit*
stoicfaux
#975 - 2015-07-30 19:43:01 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

We're all aware that you don't get the listed range in actual use.
What we're speaking of is a completely different issue.

I have a cruise Golem.
Out of bastion, my fury cruise missiles have a 166km range.
My lock range IN bastion is only 118km, not to mention my range is then increased to 208km.

Despite having the range to hit anything I can target, I sometimes have missile volleys disappear when shooting a target 40kms away.


The reddit post mentions edge of missile range (and with the Mordu velocity bonus that's a pretty big edge.) Which is what I was going by.

If you really are losing missiles at 40km out of 208km, then that's a whole 'nother can of worms. I would check the local log to make sure it wasn't a visual/graphic problem, and if we're talking about shooting NPCs:
* there's one name NPC in missions with Defenders that could wipe out multiple missiles. But that's probably a non-issue post-Aegis missile HP buff. Was this 40km problem pre-Aegis?
* NPCs will sometimes speed away (aka pseudo-war) if you get too far from their origin point, IIRC.
* your missiles disappear if you warp


Quote:
What you're explaining is if your torps say you have 60km range, you really only have 55km range, and if the target is moving, you have less and less range the faster the target goes.

No. With both shooter and target at zero velocity near the max range of missiles also resulted in inconsistent hits. This is old behavior. (Movement had no real impact when I tested back in 2010, but then I was shooting at a shuttle and not a fast moving mwd frigate.)


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#976 - 2015-07-30 20:01:19 UTC
Matt Faithbringer wrote:

The issue here is that if both ships are not moving, missiles should *always hit* or *always miss*, not *sometimes hit*

Okay. They don't always miss or hit at the edge of rnage. My personal theory was that it was something to do with the server tick.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1496553&page=1#15 Post #15.
stoicfaux
Gallente Posted - 2011.04.29 14:19:00
Quote:


Quote:
Originally by: Tippia

where maybe just under a second was wasted on the missile taking a little spin around the target before actually hitting.



The little spin wasn't happening when I was testing.

To add insult to injury, in another test I found the maximum consistent range that I could hit the stationary shuttle, and then I set the shuttle to orbit the Raven. The torps, already at their max range, had no problem hitting the moving Raven, which casts doubt on the 'moving target' theory.

My personal theory is that it has something to do with the server heartbeat/tick/cycle.

It looks like Eve uses a lot of floats so you wind up with 8.123456789 type numbers. If Eve's heartbeat is one second (meaning Eve checks things every second,) but if timestamps are in milliseconds (in thousandths of a second) then you might have the case where you fire a quarter of a second into a tick and you lose (or gain) that quarter second when the server runs its calculations on every full second. Example:

00:00:00 - server tick
00:00:00.250 - user fires torpedo (with 9 second flight time)
00:00:01 - server launches torpedo
00:00:02 - server determines if torpedo is out of fuel but uses 00:00:00.250 for the flight time calculations. Thus torpedo has thus been flying for 1.750 seconds.
...
00:00:08 - Is torp out of fuel? Torp has been flying for 7.75 seconds.
00:00:09 - Is torp out of fuel? Torp has been flying for 8.75 seconds. Which rounds up to 9, so the server decides that the torpedo is done flying, and you lose a quarter second of flight time.

Again, personal theory, no real proof.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#977 - 2015-07-30 20:47:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
The reddit post mentions edge of missile range (and with the Mordu velocity bonus that's a pretty big edge.) Which is what I was going by.

Does this affect Mordu ships more than others?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#978 - 2015-07-30 21:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
The reddit post mentions edge of missile range (and with the Mordu velocity bonus that's a pretty big edge.) Which is what I was going by.

Does this affect Mordu ships more than others?


According to the general consensus of the reddit discussion, yes. They are drawing on the assumption that the Mordus ships' rather abnormal projection buff is why they are more susceptible to the problem. It's believed that since the velocity buff/flight time nerf means missiles will fly faster but last shorter, that translates to a much wider distance loss if you were to lose a second of flight time, making it more noticeable on a Mordus ship.

It's definitely obvious that we are collectively pointing out more than one issue/bug/odd behavior. The reddit's observations, Joe's bug, and the age old missile issue of range being less precise than how it works for guns are possible three separate and isolated events. Either that or they are one and the same, but are being exacerbated in some way differently in each scenario.

The only other issue I've seen besides the one Joe describes and the fact that missile range is a little unreliable at near-to-edge is the one related to the Bastion module, whereby the act of entering or exiting Bastion Mode after missiles have been fired but before they should have registered a hit fail to apply any damage. They visually hit, but there is no hit reg. This is regardless of range, missile/launcher type or variant, grouped or ungrouped, target type, etc. This has been reproducible without fail for me and others since the Bastion Module was introduced.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#979 - 2015-07-30 21:42:55 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
According to the general consensus of the reddit discussion, yes. They are drawing on the assumption that the Mordus ships' rather abnormal projection buff is why they are more susceptible to the problem. It's believed that since the velocity buff/flight time nerf means missiles will fly faster but last shorter, that translates to a much wider distance loss if you were to lose a second of flight time, making it more noticeable on a Mordus ship.

I wonder if this is being exacerbated or otherwise affected by the MGC or MGE.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#980 - 2015-07-30 21:51:10 UTC
Not so sure of that, given the MGC/MGE is a relatively new module addition where as these issues have mostly been observed prior to and continue to happen regardless of the modules' presence. It doesn't seem to matter if you are using them or not, and I doubt they are to blame either.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."