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Walking in stations

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Author
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#861 - 2015-07-23 05:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Max Deveron wrote:


Nobody said anything about changing anything, but adding to it.
-blah blah snip snip-
Been playing this game about as long as you have, but by your attitude it sounds like your more comfortable playing an FPS or combat flight sim.

Hey cool, so you first logged into EVE around the time castor or exodus. OK then you should totally understand, no need to lecture you. You should already know how important it is to just fix stuff, not leave stuff broken for great periods of time to go create something else that'll be broken for great periods of time.

And since you were here while they worked on incarna, you know how even doing anything at all with the flight simula... er flight spaceship simulator (or submarine wars?) in regards to just fixing this game was more or less abandoned. But your theory that if they had kept working on the sims onlin... WiS, EVE would still be in it's better shape today compared to before they got called out on it all? This logic eludes me, to have experienced what you did and how you could suggest EVE would be just the same in the spaceship game if CCP had just gone on tooling with WiS to just add to this game. I'd give you a game suggestion to go off and play as well, but sorry, The SIMS Online closed long ago. Maybe angry birds?

Edit oooh as for your insult, what was that, some sort of British thing? Haha miners...

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

The Mach
Phocas Legacy
From Ashes we Rise
#862 - 2015-07-23 05:04:00 UTC
I know we blew up the monument.
Yes you listened *looks at CCP*
Pretty good work so far
Take another look at it
It would create a more immersive game for new players and i like targets
+1 to WIS now that you have a better game.



... and go
Jenshae Chiroptera
#863 - 2015-07-23 10:19:57 UTC
I keep seeing people writing, "EVE is about the people and the social networks you create," then I see all the people opposed to EVE players interacting in people shapes.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Wacktopia
Noir.
The Network.
#864 - 2015-07-23 11:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
The dichotomy of WIS:

- Vets don't want it because they get the game, enjoy it as-is and associate only pain with WIS.

- Perception is that new players expect it because the game feels one-dimensional without a serious human avatar experience.

You are never going to get these two points of view to line up. WIS had it's shot and there's really no point dragging back over the past. EVE is a much better game now than it ever was.

Personally I would have really liked to so WIS become what the prototypes suggested. It would have added depth to the game. But we don't have it so... yeah.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Candi LeMew
Division 13
#865 - 2015-07-23 11:28:43 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
The dichotomy of WIS:

- Vets don't want it because they get the game, enjoy it as-is and associate only pain with WIS.

Not really. Plenty of vets around that are into that kind of thing.

It's more to do with people being taken out of their comfort zone. Vets will whine about anything, just look at the Aegis threads, particularly in wormholes section. All that crying and discomfort for the loss of few nullsec wormholes.

So now imagine how much whining and discomfort the thought of an entire new platform within the game for social and meta-interaction would bring? Like any part of EVE where players interact, be it local chat, forums, fleets, whatever, an avatar based interaction platform would spew forth a ton of space content. But many Vets are not familiar with that format, they will no longer be the "vets" in that arena, and will have to learn a whole new style of interacting with other players if they want a piece of the content that comes from that platform.

That's all it is. But nobody will admit that, they just throw a ton of other ::reasons:: in why avatar interaction would be the end of the world. It's 100% cultural.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James

Jenshae Chiroptera
#866 - 2015-07-23 11:34:49 UTC
Speaking of which, if they ever do sort the stations out, there needs to be some sort of way to leave notes to people who are not online.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#867 - 2015-07-23 11:54:21 UTC
Candi LeMew wrote:


That's all it is. But nobody will admit that, they just throw a ton of other ::reasons:: in why avatar interaction would be the end of the world. It's 100% cultural.

It's just coding. CCP bit off more than they could chew, admitting to that. They disbanded the team. Ships + Avatars is just not something rational, not unless some multi-billion dollar company is going to tackle it, like M$ which for all that would be worth. If it were not so, it would have been done.

Whenever it's done, if it makes it in, one or the other suffers. EnB, SWG (historically speaking), both had ships+avatars, but one or the other sucked. In fact SWG had to do a whole source code rewrite, didn't even make ships at launch it was so hard, came in first expansion and was never really great. EVE is just another on that list, where it really didn't work out, and they were sane enough to realize it at some point rather than sacrificing the entire game. Even if the technology were there, it's a shitstorm of investment to ever do it right, if that is even possible.

I voter for saving jobs at CCP, because this game is about the best of pew pew in space rather than splitting the difference and winding up with something mediocre, for both ships+avatars. And for a game that is well into it's run, it's more than just doubly dangerous. But in the end, my vote doesn't matter, CCP left that intention long-long ago. These topics are just for giggles. About as straight as you'll get from me. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Jenshae Chiroptera
#868 - 2015-07-23 12:01:14 UTC
Clear Skies is the inspiration to thinking that combining two games might be the way forward.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#869 - 2015-07-23 12:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Wacktopia wrote:
The dichotomy of WIS:

- Vets don't want it because they get the game, enjoy it as-is and associate only pain with WIS.

- Perception is that new players expect it because the game feels one-dimensional without a serious human avatar experience.

You are never going to get these two points of view to line up. WIS had it's shot and there's really no point dragging back over the past. EVE is a much better game now than it ever was.

Personally I would have really liked to so WIS become what the prototypes suggested. It would have added depth to the game. But we don't have it so... yeah.


IMO it's not vets vs new players (I'm sure some new players would want avatar play, but also notice it's a lot of veteran players keeping the WiS discussion alive). It's more complicated than that.

One one side you have people who (as you say) "get it" and enjoy what the game already offers and don't see how CCP spending time adding something to the game that almost all of us can already do in real life (walking around, most of us can do that unless you're wheelchair bound lol) would add a single thing of value.
Personally, I was born with legs, I wasn't born with Warp Engines lol. 99% of available games offer some kind of walking avatar, walking avatars would add nothing to the game for people like me, and there are quite a few of us. Walkign on legs isn't going to make me able to kill NPCs faster or scan down sigs better.

On the other hand you have the "immersion" crowd. The people who would literally log into a video game with space ships and a player run market and instead of flying a spaceship or playing "spaceship market tycoon", they would activate their fake person, walk on fake legs to a fake bar on a fake space station, order a fake drink they can't even taste and sit at a fake window watching a fake planet slowly rotate around it's fake ass axis (lol). The desire for all that fake stuff demonstrates a need for some not so fake medicine (lol, just kidding).

More seriously, the immersion crowd sees the game as shallow without WiS, while people like me LOVE the rather 'spartan'/no nonsense nature of EVE online. That no-nonsense game has made it this far and it would be foolish for CCP to alter that in hopes of realizing some unrealistic dream of a 'complete sci-fi universe' with avatars and atmospheric flight ect, especially since every single past attempt has failed.

Every.single.one.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#870 - 2015-07-23 13:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Wacktopia wrote:
The dichotomy of WIS:

- Vets don't want it because they get the game, enjoy it as-is and associate only pain with WIS.

- Perception is that new players expect it because the game feels one-dimensional without a serious human avatar experience.

You are never going to get these two points of view to line up. WIS had it's shot and there's really no point dragging back over the past. EVE is a much better game now than it ever was.

Personally I would have really liked to so WIS become what the prototypes suggested. It would have added depth to the game. But we don't have it so... yeah.


Well, WiS was about the promise that EVE would be something more than what it was -not just a pew pew spaceships game, but a game where people would interact as unique individuals rather than generic spaceships.

It would also open venues for new gameplay so people who started anew would be on equal footing to years old veterans. Even would have a chance to carve a niche and become King of Stations.

EVE Online needed the future promised by Ambulation and didn't got it. Now it is just repeating its past: Incursions Again come as a prelude to Apochrypha Again and right after Sovereignty Again...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#871 - 2015-07-23 17:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
Webvan wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:


Nobody said anything about changing anything, but adding to it.
-blah blah snip snip-
Been playing this game about as long as you have, but by your attitude it sounds like your more comfortable playing an FPS or combat flight sim.

Hey cool, so you first logged into EVE around the time castor or exodus. OK then you should totally understand, no need to lecture you. You should already know how important it is to just fix stuff, not leave stuff broken for great periods of time to go create something else that'll be broken for great periods of time.

And since you were here while they worked on incarna, you know how even doing anything at all with the flight simula... er flight spaceship simulator (or submarine wars?) in regards to just fixing this game was more or less abandoned. But your theory that if they had kept working on the sims onlin... WiS, EVE would still be in it's better shape today compared to before they got called out on it all? This logic eludes me, to have experienced what you did and how you could suggest EVE would be just the same in the spaceship game if CCP had just gone on tooling with WiS to just add to this game. I'd give you a game suggestion to go off and play as well, but sorry, The SIMS Online closed long ago. Maybe angry birds?

Edit oooh as for your insult, what was that, some sort of British thing? Haha miners...


Nope nothing so much as specifically bettering the game....im only talking about the RL money aspects of CCP, i for one woldnt mind some graphics and things to do in station once in awhile. spend most of my time in space myself. but as to maybe a way of acquiring more accounts based on those people that would spend a lot of time in that enviorment.....well if they sub for a year...even 100 of those type of players would be like at least 13k into CCP's pocket....meaning more revenue for us to have a better space game. That is what I am talking about, adding the fluff to get those players to spend their cash here....and if they are still wow-ish like if they ever undock....well we get to awox, kill, pod, scam them which is what we would do anyway.

Edit: oh in retrospect of the way im thinking, i do not expect to EVER see it happen, but fantasy sake, lets say we somehow get 1 million such targets/players.....thats at least 130 million $ revenue for CCP to better our space gaming experience.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#872 - 2015-07-23 17:41:25 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
.well if they sub for a year...even 100 of those type of players would be like at least 13k into CCP's pocket....meaning more revenue for us to have a better space game.


There it is, the underlying (false) belief that drives not only a lot of "WiShful thinking" (I should copyright the phrase lol), but also a lot of the "EVE would be so much better if only it attracted lots of people who wouldn't like EVE without the useless fluff" thinking as well.

The problem is reality. The idea that a company making more money somehow translates to that company spending that money to make better products for you to enjoy is ridiculous. It's exactly like saying "If I buy 2 Big macs from McDonalds instead of one, tomorrow they will make better Big Macs". Show me one company, ANY COMPANY in any industry where more people giving them money resulted in a better product..

No they won't give you a better product, they (stakeholders/investors whatever) will pocket that money, OR the company will try use those extra funds to develop some other product that they can sell to people who aren't you (because they already have YOU) such as "McRockyMountain Oysters" or some such. This is what CCP was trying to do with WoD by the way, sure some EVe players would have played, but we weren't the target audience.

WHY would McDonalds (or any company) make you a Better Big Mac (or any product) after you just proved that you will buy the Product as it is already?

The above points to the irony of the fact that legions of people play EVE online, don't like it or at least like it some but think "it could be sooo much more" while continuing to pay for EVE as it is, signalling to CCP that they don't HAVE to make the game 'better' because "these smucks will already pay for a game they dislike/feel is incomplete anyways".
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#873 - 2015-07-23 17:44:48 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Again, tidi and all actual improvements to the game came after WiS, as I said after they quit playing with dolls.


So you're just getting into semantics. Because guess what? If they started working on that stuff after "playing with dolls," TiDi would be brand new.

Get it into your head that they were actively working on improving the engine of the game during Incarna. It's what the dev blogs show. It's true. TiDi would not have happened when it did otherwise.

And, speaking of mythologizing:

Webvan wrote:
At this point I doubt you were, probably just saw the controversy on some gamers blog and got fascinated with it all. Maybe not so much the game but just a platform to shitpost and do make believe tears all over etc. Well you always have those other EVE-killer™ games you like so much, maybe in time they will be worthy of your trollings there.


So making up a bunch of convenient fictions to support your argument is not shitposting or trolling? That's new.

For the record, I've been interested in this for years. I got interested with the first CCP Veritas dev blog I saw, and read everything from CCP that I could find. And "EVE killers" are a joke. There is no game like EVE, and there are no games in the pipeline like EVE. I have contributed $0 to Star Citizen, $0 to Elite:Dangerous, and so on, because they're not EVE. So please, try to stick to what you know. I know it's hard when you're used to comforting myths, but it's worth trying.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Candi LeMew
Division 13
#874 - 2015-07-23 17:58:14 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Candi LeMew wrote:


That's all it is. But nobody will admit that, they just throw a ton of other ::reasons:: in why avatar interaction would be the end of the world. It's 100% cultural.

It's just coding. CCP bit off more than they could chew, admitting to that. They disbanded the team. Ships + Avatars is just not something rational, not unless some multi-billion dollar company is going to tackle it, like M$ which for all that would be worth. If it were not so, it would have been done.

I meant moreso the resistance to it is cultural.

CCP tried jumping in the deep end, made a ton of promises and then did a terrible job at implementing it all. Not a good way to attempt it, especially when (at the time) only a percentage of the playerbase were behind it. To see it dropped after that series of comedic errors doesn't surprise me at all. Now days those bad memories still linger, but I don't believe it's technically out of reach at all. The biggest hurdles are probably CCP themselves having now dumped the team for it, it's not something that can be implemented by a small or "part-time" crew. Supply and demand, and I don't think there's quite the "demand" from the community to lash out and put another whole team on the topic ... at this time.

But I still believe we'll see 'something' in the arena of avatar interaction here eventually. The community is slowly warming to the concept of avatar fun over the past few years. Just look at things in 2011/12 compared to now - you even mentioned avatars and you'd be trolled off the forums within the first couple posts. But now days it's a serious topic to all but a few.

That in itself is a victory and sign of significant cultural change in EVE.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#875 - 2015-07-23 19:24:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
.well if they sub for a year...even 100 of those type of players would be like at least 13k into CCP's pocket....meaning more revenue for us to have a better space game.


There it is, the underlying (false) belief that drives not only a lot of "WiShful thinking" (I should copyright the phrase lol), but also a lot of the "EVE would be so much better if only it attracted lots of people who wouldn't like EVE without the useless fluff" thinking as well.

The problem is reality. The idea that a company making more money somehow translates to that company spending that money to make better products for you to enjoy is ridiculous. It's exactly like saying "If I buy 2 Big macs from McDonalds instead of one, tomorrow they will make better Big Macs". Show me one company, ANY COMPANY in any industry where more people giving them money resulted in a better product..

No they won't give you a better product, they (stakeholders/investors whatever) will pocket that money, OR the company will try use those extra funds to develop some other product that they can sell to people who aren't you (because they already have YOU) such as "McRockyMountain Oysters" or some such. This is what CCP was trying to do with WoD by the way, sure some EVe players would have played, but we weren't the target audience.

WHY would McDonalds (or any company) make you a Better Big Mac (or any product) after you just proved that you will buy the Product as it is already?

The above points to the irony of the fact that legions of people play EVE online, don't like it or at least like it some but think "it could be sooo much more" while continuing to pay for EVE as it is, signalling to CCP that they don't HAVE to make the game 'better' because "these smucks will already pay for a game they dislike/feel is incomplete anyways".


and here I have to disagree with you on the sentiments your writing........
hmmm, why would a Mcdonalds try to make a better bigmac or increase its sales like 2 for 5......because the sales are dropping or nobody is buying it.

Now as to CCP....the already announced at fanfest last year basically to the world.....that CCP is only going to work on the EVE UNIVERSE from here on out. That entails that they are going to work on products only pertaining to the EvE Universe, whether thats hardware, integrating current gamelines together, creating new things for those games....ie WiS.

Now its true some of the money will be pocketed, CCP is not a public shares investors company so that means shareholders are basically internal or have been with the company as a owner or some high managment position. Of course they will pocket some of the money, the game belongs to them. Paychecks, overhead, better hardware....leaving a slim margine for eventually enlarging their ability to create more, even better, and maybe even faster things for the playerbase to utilize.

I am sure they are people that stay, but in my experience the ones that dont sub up, and the ones that sub up for a month and leave permenantly far out number the the ones that stay. Add my experience to the things i observe from listening to others 1 in 10 or 12 people actually stay in EvE for various reasons.....and thats on top of the growing number of veterans(2 or more yrs playing) leaving the game. Its not an epidemic....yet.

But it would behoove CCP and also us the players to support them in this to start doing something now, rather than wait till EvE is on the brink of shutdown because of fianicial concerns.
And i beg to ask you the question....Why would you personally care if such fluff exsisted as long as it brought in paying customers?
Personally i think it would be great to do that, if they dont undock who cares CCP has their money, if they do undock....Who Cares....we the player base already know how to deal with and train them to actually play.
Im simply a proponent that watches the stalemate of null, and the listness of high....and both could be fixed....if we had more players for whatever reason.....there is not enough carrots, and im simply proposing that CCP make a garden full of them and watch the rabbits come to try and gorge themselves.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#876 - 2015-07-23 22:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
About the argument of WIShfull thinking: every MMO game I played there were a lot of players that wished for more, if bigger the hype, than the things wished for were even more and bigger. Just after the game failed to deliver and their bubbles were popped, game quickly lost an appeal for them, subs dropped. EVE started as an underdog, then hype started on wormholes, then they had to implement planetary interaction and ambulation. Only worholes sticked as a fairly complete feature, maybe because it was the easiest one to implement. The planetary interaction was dissapointing, and WIS was a flop. Players were enraged, but as an underdog still, there was not big drop when I take into account other games I played.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#877 - 2015-07-24 03:22:07 UTC
WIS : Started out as a very nice daydream which eventually turned into a very bad nightmare.

Ugh




DMC
Desslok VonReich
Acadia Investment Group
#878 - 2015-07-24 05:30:12 UTC
My issue with WiS is that I've yet to see any compelling gameplay for it.

What will WiS offer that just cant be added as a button to the Neocom?

WiS has to be something more than a terrible UI barrier. Poker? Gambling? There already exists far better and efficient interfaces for that via 3rd party sites. You don't want to spend 5 minutes navigating an avatar in order to do something you could do by just adding a button.

WiS has to add some "game" to the game that cannot be better served by adding an efficient interface.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#879 - 2015-07-24 05:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Webvan wrote:
Candi LeMew wrote:


That's all it is. But nobody will admit that, they just throw a ton of other ::reasons:: in why avatar interaction would be the end of the world. It's 100% cultural.

It's just coding. CCP bit off more than they could chew, admitting to that. They disbanded the team. Ships + Avatars is just not something rational, not unless some multi-billion dollar company is going to tackle it, like M$ which for all that would be worth. If it were not so, it would have been done.

Whenever it's done, if it makes it in, one or the other suffers. EnB, SWG (historically speaking), both had ships+avatars, but one or the other sucked. In fact SWG had to do a whole source code rewrite, didn't even make ships at launch it was so hard, came in first expansion and was never really great. EVE is just another on that list, where it really didn't work out, and they were sane enough to realize it at some point rather than sacrificing the entire game. Even if the technology were there, it's a shitstorm of investment to ever do it right, if that is even possible.

I voter for saving jobs at CCP, because this game is about the best of pew pew in space rather than splitting the difference and winding up with something mediocre, for both ships+avatars. And for a game that is well into it's run, it's more than just doubly dangerous. But in the end, my vote doesn't matter, CCP left that intention long-long ago. These topics are just for giggles. About as straight as you'll get from me. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Coding is not really a problem. The WIS component would not even have to be a part of the EvE client. It could be written standalone and only need to pull and push data to and from market, wallets and chat channels. It could easily be based on an already established and tested game engine. Decent crowd sourcing and it could probably be done free with help from players contributing coding design and artwork.

Edit: one of the really beneficial things about such a change would be the ability to offload players onto the WIS system when docked up. Instead of jumping into Jita with 2k in local you could jump in with only those in system in local.

The docked, docked AFK and docked spammers would be in WIS. Could still camp stations, could still spam but you'd just have to be in space meaning killable which would be great.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#880 - 2015-07-24 08:00:53 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Coding is not really a problem. The WIS component would not even have to be a part of the EvE client. It could be written standalone and only need to pull and push data to and from market, wallets and chat channels. It could easily be based on an already established and tested game engine. Decent crowd sourcing and it could probably be done free with help from players contributing coding design and artwork.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvHBxUDEyY [Rockit Real Laugh]

The only people that would say such a thing is someone who has never done it. Never will do and has ZERO idea of what is needed for such a project.

You sound like a manager that wonders why your dev team hasn't written a better google in a week. In otherwords a PHB.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.