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[December] Module Tiericide – Shield Rechargers and Others

First post First post
Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2015-06-30 14:31:03 UTC
Altrue wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
So, as I mentioned earlier, I brought up the Shield Flux Coils and Shield Rechargers comments people have made at the latest module tiericide meeting.

It was mentioned that Shield Rechargers are used in passive PvE shield tanking, where the regen is more important. On larger ships like the Rattlesnake, you can get a higher shield regeneration rate that if you were to use Shield Extenders for example. With that being said we might still make some minor changes to the module set, and there's some research being done into usage rates of Shield Rechargers, especially in PvE.

Shield Flux Coils were agreed upon to be something we are less happy with, so there may be some more significant changes to them. It is fairly unlikely they will be removed outright.


If the Shield Rechargers are getting stopped from being buffed because of Rattlesnakes only, maybe its time to nerf Rattlesnakes then?

I mean they can solo drifters by passive tanking, maybe they are a tiny bit over-powered?

I am more inclined to say that the reason Rattlesnakes even use them is because there are no shield extenders big enough for battleships. It's primarily Rattlesnakes because there aren't a lot of other battleships with a passive tank bonus. The Rokh lacks mid slots and large turrets aren't great for ratting, and the Navy Scorpion while fully able to fit a Rattlesnake tank, is underwhelming because large missiles are fairly weak if you don't have a web/painter and that diminishes the tank. In short, it's because the Rattlesnake is specifically the drone+passive shield combo, but more specifically because there are no proper shield extenders for battleships. Give battleships an X-Large Shield Extender and you will never see a Rattlesnake sporting a shield recharger again. Then we can talk about buffing shield rechargers.



Want my advice? I say increase shield recharge bonuses by a huge amount but give shield recharge effects a stacking penalty. Make it so 4 mods can give you around 3-5x recharge rate.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

BugraT WarheaD
#102 - 2015-06-30 15:26:47 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Still don't like meta modules providing superior stats compared to T1.
There is no reason to use T1 over meta.
meta should provide different pro's and con's with T1 being the base line.

This.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#103 - 2015-06-30 17:59:21 UTC
What if shield rechargers had a bonus to reduce sig penalties from other mods/rigs? So instead of of trading buffer or resists for recharge only, you are getting recharge and a better signature when using modules that increase your sig. Now you have an interesting choice as to which stats you are modifying. Of course it would never lower you below your base signature and shouldn't completely negate penalties either.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#104 - 2015-07-01 06:51:56 UTC
I don't think that a module to reduce your signature is ever going to be a good idea, because you will find ships fitting them into spare mids (eg; jackdaw, Sacrilege, etc) with AAR tanks in order to get a synergy between low-sig armour tank and the sig-reducing module.

Consider also the effect of this in Wolf-Rayet wormholes with T3 Destroyers such as an armour-fit Svipul with links in a C13 already gets down to a sig radius of 23m, if you chopped that another 20% it gets down to the same sig as a light drone. Ridiculous.

- - -
I think that the one or two uses of shield rechargers (rattler, SNI) might barely justify keeping them as they are, but unless they become significantly stronger the maths will work against them every time, as proved above.

- - -

I will again plump the idea of the Flux Coil being a module for the passive transfer of capacitor to shield. It would create interesting Bhaalgorn fits in pulsars, where you could suck cap from your opponents and convert the capacitor into shield hitpoints, etc, and similarly in k-space.

Another thing to consider CCP Terminus, when discussing Rattlesnakes in PVE, is the fact that by and large the way they are being used these days in most situations besides nullsec anomalies (where they are mostly overkill for the purpose they are used in) is in tandem with a depot.

90% ofRattler pilots will drop a depot and tractor, and refit on the fly using the depot to switch between tank and gank, or if being ganked in a wormhole, MJD and stabs. Rattler pairs in C4's will also hot swap high slots between cap transfers, shield RR and smartbombs using a depot.

So I gues, when looking at Rattlesnake usage of shield rechargers, you have to consider that the guys using them are probably not permanently using them anyway; during high DPS phases of running a combat site or DED complex you may fit the recharger for a minute or two to gain the extra 50 HP/s recharge, but when the DPs falls off you can swap immediately for a passive hardener, or an Omnidirectional Tracking Link and get uber drone tracking, or a target painter, etc.

Likewise a proper C4 rattler will have a full DPS gank fit and a full passive fit; when your partner is being primed you swap SPR's for DCU's, in the very least, and then swap back when he reports aggro switch.

As said before, if you make the flux coil an active module, the choice therefore if whether to activate it (and be unable to swap out the module if aggro switches) or swap it for a passive module.

Just my 5c.
Fzhal
#105 - 2015-07-01 19:45:34 UTC
Or you could just search for "compact sensor booster" and look for what starts with Compact. And searching for "Compact shield booster" would yield all sizes.

Think about it, when you look at an item's variation tab (I think) it lists things by Meta level, which was immensely helpful. Now that they are going away from Meta level, it will not be as easy.

Shopping while browsing the market has always been more of a chore than it should be, because of the order things are listed: Primary sort = [Not T2] then T2 (Thankfully Metta 6+ has their own categories)
Secondary sort = Alphabetical
Which will have the lowest CPU? Gonna have to go to the item section scroll through all, until T2, and remember the lowest CPU so far, then keep scrolling for a lower one. Found it! Oops, what was the name of that lowest CPU mod, I know it was "[Something] Compact", but what did it start with... Drat, Gonna have to scroll up looking for that lowest number again. Wait, while trying to remember the module name I forgot what the lowest CPU number was, FRACK!!!
It's madness! It is so bad that we all know that the best way to create a new fit is to generate a shopping list in a 3rd party program (that lists them by fitting need), import the list, view market for each item...

The current market sorting and module naming conventions actually INHIBIT

You do have a point though, which is why I'd revise my request to name things by:
1. Fitting/Effectiveness Indicator - "[Basic/Compact/Prototype/Restrained/Standard/Superior]"
2. Item Type - "Shield Power Relay"
3. Flavor Text - "Type-D"

We can both win Chance... Maybe someone could make some Effectiveness indicators that are also alphabetically ordered as well!


Chance Ravinne wrote:
I actually disagree and feel the opposite.

Right now, knowing it goes at the end means I don't have to know anything to search for a compact module.

I can (in theory) go in the market and search "Compact shield booster" "compact shield extender" "compact torpedo launcher" "compact sensor booster" and just KNOW without having to memorize flavor names, this will find the correct module.

Fzhal wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
So, as I mentioned earlier, I brought up the Shield Flux Coils and Shield Rechargers comments people have made at the latest module tiericide meeting.

Have you considered moving all the "Compact" type words to the front of the names. It makes shopping and fitting so much easier. If I know I'm short on CPU my eyes could quickly find Compact modules instead of having to read each and every category line for the important part in the middle...

To be honest, I've never liked the I/II scheme because it puts the important info at the end. I really wish all the schemes were more like:
Std. Shield Power Relay
Compact Mark I Shield Power Relay
Restrained Type-D Shield Power Relay
Adv. Shield Power Relay
'Basic' Shield Power Relay
[Adv./Prototype] Caldari Navy Shield Power Relay


Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#106 - 2015-07-01 22:11:21 UTC
I love the module tiercide. Keep it up CCP. :)
Delarian Rox
X-Zest Voyage
#107 - 2015-07-02 12:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Delarian Rox
Rechargers:
I think rechargers are fine right there they will be after tiercide. We should compare them with resistance amplifiers and not with resistance wards(cap usage, harder to fit) or extenders(HUGE fitting difference) so they are actualy fine in some standard situations.

Coils and relays:
I think flux coil real recharge bonus should be better. You'll almost never feel power relay drawback on a passive tanked ships even if you try to speedtank with AB(most comon situation), but you'll feel it with flux coil as it reduces ship ability to sustain alfa strike and you can fall under regeneration peak more easily. They just more risky so they should be more powerful.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#108 - 2015-07-02 14:07:31 UTC
I doubt hardly anyone fits either of those three module types so maybe best to delete them or radically change their stats to make them worth fitting. Certainly fitting shield recharger modules is always a sign of a badly fitted ship whether in PvE or PvP.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Kyanite Sentak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2015-07-05 16:36:56 UTC
So what's up making the game less 'Complex' you guys do realize fans of this game enjoy the complexity... if we wanted some simple disneyland that was easy to play we'd be over at Blizzard playing WoW.

Work on that rectalcranial... I'll be quitting this game if it is oversimplified.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#110 - 2015-07-06 14:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Vic Vorlon wrote:
@Nagarythe, the advantage with T1 modules is that you can manufacture them yourself. For some circumstances, that's enough of a benefit. If you want better modules (the meta ones) you have to go ratting or go shopping.

This is true, but many meta modules are very cheap. Most of the time, choosing the base T1 module has only disadvantages. In my opinion, every module in the game should be useful.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#111 - 2015-07-10 17:20:31 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
So, as I mentioned earlier, I brought up the Shield Flux Coils and Shield Rechargers comments people have made at the latest module tiericide meeting.

Are you at a point to which you will be able to show us some new stats?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#112 - 2015-07-10 17:38:20 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Vic Vorlon wrote:
@Nagarythe, the advantage with T1 modules is that you can manufacture them yourself. For some circumstances, that's enough of a benefit. If you want better modules (the meta ones) you have to go ratting or go shopping.

This is true, but many meta modules are very cheap. Most of the time, choosing the base T1 module has only disadvantages. In my opinion, every module in the game should be useful.



The t1 modules are useful. If you're a brokebutt noob and it's all you can fit or afford. As you progress in the game you get better stuff.

I'll play analogy gal. When you get out of school and start out in life on your own.
Rhaman noodles are pretty awesome. Warm and filling and not poison to your body. (t1)

Then you get a premant job, the bills are paid down.
Spagetti and some meatballs are great. Same noodles (more or less) but now you can afford to add some sauce and some ground up cow, because you can afford it. (meta)

You've worked you way up in the company and you're a department head.
You go out for dinner. Lingini w/ alfredo sauce and sprinkle some clam across it. (t2)

You had a banner year! Life is awesome.
You spend your 'Im awesome' bonus on prime rib, imported wine, some lobster. (faction/ded bling)

So now you're in your x-type mach blitzing level 4 missions. Rhaman noodles don't even enter your mind, but out there somewhere there is a brokebutt noob wipin the sweat off his forehead thanking his lucky stars that his t1 shield booster got him passed those 3 frigates in the lvl 1 pirate abound mission.

It's all relative dude. Everything is useful. At the end of the day, if a module is only useful for invention.... so what?

CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#113 - 2015-07-15 01:52:41 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Are you at a point to which you will be able to show us some new stats?


Nothing yet. Aegis and sov have taken priority for now. I'll make sure to post an update when there's more information.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#114 - 2015-07-15 04:00:09 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Are you at a point to which you will be able to show us some new stats?


Nothing yet. Aegis and sov have taken priority for now. I'll make sure to post an update when there's more information.


Thank you for at least responding with that much.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#115 - 2015-07-15 09:09:19 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The t1 modules are useful. If you're a brokebutt noob and it's all you can fit or afford. As you progress in the game you get better stuff.
Nearly all non gun/tank mods meta is cheaper, noobs use t1 because they don't know.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#116 - 2015-07-15 12:58:55 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The t1 modules are useful. If you're a brokebutt noob and it's all you can fit or afford. As you progress in the game you get better stuff.
Nearly all non gun/tank mods meta is cheaper, noobs use t1 because they don't know.



That's fine too. It defines the line. t1 user = noob. meta user = young pilot on his way up in the world.

The proliferation of meta mods is due to cry bears lobbying for things like mtu. Automating the gathering of resources is not good for the games economy. The closer you get to passive - the more everything loses value. Moon goo is a perfect example of how something for nothing is bad for the game. Pilots that can't see 3 years down the road are proffering ideas for deployables that salvage and so forth.

The same can be said for faction and DED modules. A faction fit ship used to be a rare, expensive and powerful thing. The LP stores and caldari navy gear (just picked one for example) means everyone gets faction gear at a fraction of what it used to be. Same w/ null bears lobbying for anoms. There used to be 3 x-type boosters and 1 x-type armor repper on sale in Jita - that was rare poop at a premium price. Now there are price wars and market manipulations on that stuff.

Faction BS used to cost 1B isk (give or take) and they were rare. Now I have stacks of them and they are dirt cheap.

My point. If you want to ***** about modules and their priceing - lobby for a fix that will actually add value to the modules/market/game. Tweaking a few stats treats the symptoms. You need to go after the disease.

If CCP wants to balance modules they first have to get the productions stream (from resource gathering to market hub shelf) under control. There is little point to wasting resources on balancing and providing strata for a family of modules if there is no real cost difference to force cost vs performance decisions.

Right now it's basically (for pvp) fit t2. If you have cpu/grid issues put on faction. That's messed up.

TL/DR: CCP needs to slowly draw down the meta and faction drops to put some ACTUAL VALUE differences between the modules or no amount of balancing tweaks will mean anything. They should do this without telling us or putting it in any patch notes (market manipulation reasons)
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#117 - 2015-07-15 14:04:57 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Are you at a point to which you will be able to show us some new stats?


Nothing yet. Aegis and sov have taken priority for now. I'll make sure to post an update when there's more information.

Understandable, Thank you for the update.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#118 - 2015-07-15 14:10:56 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

If CCP wants to balance modules they first have to get the productions stream (from resource gathering to market hub shelf) under control. There is little point to wasting resources on balancing and providing strata for a family of modules if there is no real cost difference to force cost vs performance decisions.

Right now it's basically (for pvp) fit t2. If you have cpu/grid issues put on faction. That's messed up.

TL/DR: CCP needs to slowly draw down the meta and faction drops to put some ACTUAL VALUE differences between the modules or no amount of balancing tweaks will mean anything. They should do this without telling us or putting it in any patch notes (market manipulation reasons)


Agree with this.

I would also recommend adjusting it so that the meta and faction modules no longer drop. Instead, have the BPC for those items drop. Then have the build requirements for the meta or faction module require the T1 item as part of the build cost for the module.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#119 - 2015-07-15 17:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Terminus
FT Diomedes wrote:

I would also recommend adjusting it so that the meta and faction modules no longer drop. Instead, have the BPC for those items drop. Then have the build requirements for the meta or faction module require the T1 item as part of the build cost for the module.


As far as I know that's been talked about as an actual plan for the future, or some variant of it. Making T1 more valuable as a manufacturing component and tying the meta prices to the t1 modules.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#120 - 2015-07-15 17:35:25 UTC
CCP Terminus, are we going to see new faction and meta modules for everything that does not have a meta and or faction variation of it?
For example Data and Relic analyzers?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.